Senate Israel/Palestine

I wouldn't say it'll never be withdrawn. I think there is a movement in the US that's sick of Israel's ****. But it may take another decade or two for it to gain traction. You are right that they're just being turds because they know they can afford to be. I say let Israel sink or swim on its own without subsidizing their madness.

 

I don't think it'll ever be totally withdrawn; we've never done that even with Taiwan, which was claiming to represent a country that didn't even exist. Balanced in terms of regional interests, and also in terms of allies like the UK and Japan? More than likely, IMO.

 

So does there need to be a Suez-style crisis in terms of Israel-US relations then? By which I mean Israel does something way out of line, US tells them to back off, they refuse, so US threatens an economic kicking that it has every intention of following through on.

The reason I'm invoking Suez is that was when it was made clear to the UK that the UK was no longer what it had been, it was not running the world anymore and acting like it did would not be permitted by one of the powers that was running it! It was dumb, stupid and macho but clearly the UK thought the US would back them, it didn't.

 

I just think it'll gradually relax with time and also shifting of regional interests. Iraq's more or less in our corner now, and we're taking a less antagonistic relationship with Iran seriously. When we started doing that with the PRC was when our throw-ourselves-in-front-of-the-bus relationship with Taiwan cooled-before that, we actively intervened between themselves and the mainland at least a few times.

 

It's good to see young Palestinians resorting to comedy rather than violence to protest conditions in Gaza:

http://media.smh.com.au/national/selections/volvo-spoof-highlights-gaza-petrol-crisis-5027807.html

 

Expect a 100% humour-free response from Israel.

 

Stories like that highlight this ongoing issue that Israel is continuing with unjustified actions but at this point, they've been doing this for so long that no one even bothers to question it anymore. This is now 6 years of Gaza being blockaded, and given the limitations that it faces in any sort of trade, I don't see how that is all excused. It would be one thing if this was simply Israel sealing its borders with Gaza, but since the blockade is also preventing goods from reaching Gaza by sea, that is Israel blocking waters that would be, rightly, Gaza's or Egypt's, and not simply Israeli territory. I've yet to see Israel justify that in a way that seemed reasonable or fair to the people there.

 

Well Israel just say "Hamas" a few times and "rocket attacks" and that justifies everything apparently. Collective punishment is the key here and that has been at the heart of Israeli policy for decades.

 

Don't forget preventing another holocaust too! I think that is perhaps the worst element - the quite jaw-droppingly shameless use of that absolute horror for political gain by Israeli politicians that know better!

 

I think what's the worst part about that, not just the abuse of the Holocaust to get away with anything, is the dangerous pattern in which they veer into having something fairly similar that they're trying to perpetuate against the Palestinians. It seems fairly reminiscent of what was done with the ghettos earlier on.

 

I'd like to be charitable about the death of Sharon and say some gracious words.....but I just can't. The man was just an atrocious human being who personified everything that is rotten in the state of Israel. If hell has borders then Sharon is no doubt building a wall around some of them and planning an invasion beyond the rest.

 

Let's just say he kinda freed Gaza and started a much-needed third political party.
The eight-year coma was justice enough for everything bad he's done.

 

I really appreciate your post, Watto.

It's a refreshing break from the regular, reflexive Israel-bashing that tends to dominate this thread.

Peace,

V-03

 

i dunno if we're discussing possible punishments from the universe, i feel like a coma is kind of a lame one. correct me if im wrong but my understanding is that people in comas are likely not experiencing much or any meaningful conciousness, so its hardly a "punishment" the way, say, Reagan and Thatcher being struck with long, drawn out declines into dementia, losing pieces of themselves and contact with the social world bit by bit, could be seen as cosmic justice for the evils of neoliberalism and imperialism they put out into the world

 

I try to remain upbeat about Israel as much as possible, but yeah, I'm a terrible person when it comes to Arial Sharon I have to admit it.

 

He did terrible things, no doubt, but mellowed out a little towards the end of his life. I for one am shocked that he was kept alive for eight years in that state.

And yes, I do agree your comments are fair .

Peace,

V-03

 

So, Kerry is saying that Israel is becoming an "apartheid" state soon if it doesn't find peace with Palestine, harshly criticizes the Israeli settlement-building, warning of a return to Palestinian violence if peace talks collapse completely, and is saying that Israel or Palestine should get new leadership. Basically a giant "screw you" to Netanyahu.

http://news.yahoo.com/kerry-warns-israeli-apartheid-231200692--politics.html

 

I'm 100% convinced that the following had nothing to do with the below:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/23/plo-hamas-agree-unity-pact-form-government

 

It's because Israel is threatening to stop trying for peace, because of this unity deal.

But this unity deal has to happen, you can't have peace unless you have peace with Hamas too.

 

I heard Bibi being interviewed on the BBC about this. Bibi keeps saying that the HAMAS part makes it unworkable because HAMAS remain committed to the destruction of Israel. This in theory is fair enough, but leaders are supposed to have the vision to compromise where needed. Anyway, the interviewer goes on to note how the British government entered into talks with the IRA even when the IRA was bombing British targets. Netanyahu responsed by saying that the IRA was never committed to the destruction of the British state nor indiscriminately killing British civilians. Um. The latter part, Bibi? That's 100% what happened.

But, I forgot. Israeli Jews are the only people who actually suffer (hence why Israel remains committed to not recognising the Armenian Genocide as more than a massacre) so that's that guys. Thread can close now!

 

He's not wrong, though, about peace being impossible with a group of people that -- as a condition for the peace -- want your extermination and/or eviction from the land, preferably both.

 

He's absolutely wrong. The IRA was committed to the forced removal of Crown influence from northern Ireland and used deplorable violence to further this aim. The treatment of the RUC and of any British military units captured by them was as bad as the worst torture inflicted upon Israeli soldiers in a similar predicament; my point being that one may have a constitution with the "kill all Israelis" clause, the other may have a history of "kill all Crown officers" in practise, but both can be negotiated with.

There are segments in the Israeli right who do not want to cede any territory gained to anybody, especially Palestinians. Bibi is representing that strain of Israeli politics, and using HAMAS' constitution as an excuse to pin it on the Palestinians. Easier to say they made relations deteriorate than to risk upsetting the right...

 

There is a fundamental difference between "We want Northern Ireland to be independent and we will kill as many people on the other side as possible to achieve this aim until we control our own government," and "We want Israel completely gone and replace it entirely with Palestine and we will kill as many people as possible, including them all -- which would be preferable -- in order to make that happen."

The IRA never wanted England wiped off the face of the map.

 

No, but in practice they were as brutal as can be imagined. And are you telling me when it comes down to the torture and murder of any Crown officers - from the RUC, from the Army, etc? - and the indiscriminate bombing of civilians the intent behind the organisation determines the severity of the terrorist? HAMAS are worse because their constitution calls for something and the IRA's didn't (though their actions are largely identical)?

Not at all, and the wind is stripped from the HAMAS sails if they do negotiate with Israel. Frankly, whilst Israel has more to lose it also needs to be the first to extend the olive branch.

 

The Likud Party charter is as equally uncompromising as the HAMAS charter and HAMAS is at its core a resistance movement. The Likud Party charter states:

a. The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”
b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”

That is pretty much extermination/eviction right there. The charter flaty refuses to recognise a Palestian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Pretty much push all of the Arabs out of the West Bank.

Also, Isreal is not in danger of "becoming" an apartheid state, it is an apartheid state and has been for decades, it is just clever about the way it separates the Jewish Israelies from the Arab Israelis. You won't see park benches reserved only for Jews but the land laws and governement regulations relating to government housing, subsidies and entitlements are all designed to disqualify and disentitle Arab Israelies.