Senate Israel/Palestine

No, it just takes one or two people to fire off a rocket. There's actual footage of it on TV. Trust me, to fire a rocket one does not need the consensus and support of 1.5 million people. You just aim and fire. You talk about the Palestinians as though they have a hive mind. Why is it so hard to accept that a majority of the civilians in Gaza do not want to be subjected to Israeli reprisals because of rockets being fired into Israel? You should read 'The View From the Valley of Hell" by Mark Willacy an ABC reporter stationed in Gaza. The Hamas militants are a law unto themselves. They do not act with the popular support of the people.

Uh-huh. And where do they GET the rockets from? Somebody's paying for those things. And where are the large objections of the neigbors seeing the rockets set up in thier neighborhoods?

And if the militants do not act without the populat support of the people... then why are these people so silent?



This comment indicates to me that you have no appreciation whatsoever of what has happened historically to 'protestors' in Gaza. Believe me, if you lived in Gaza you wouldn't protest much either as the risk to life, limb and 'freedom' is too high. Since the IDF withdrew in 2005, the people of Gaza have been more concerned with feeding their families, obtaining drinking water and keeping the electricity on. Since Hamas took control of internal security, people are even less inclined to gather together in the streets. Hamas security forces are just as brutal if not more so than the IDF troops stationed there during the occupation.

So let me get this straight: we are arguing to set up a state where the people themselves will not even have sufficient freedom of speech to hold a protest beforehand. Where they are even more afraid than when the Israelis were in control. What then is the rationale for backing a Palestinian state anyway? If that's the case, all you're doing is condemning more of these people to die under Hamas and other extremists for the price of thier "independance".

The question remains if Hamas was so brutal why did they get voted in? What, because the only choice was Fatah? Well then why did nobody pool thier resources and set up ANOTHER organization as ANOTHER alternative? Apparently these people of which we speak say little in the way of getting organized and running in another election.

When Al Qaida ran out of control, the IRaqis started banding together to push them out. They might not have liked the Americans, but they for the moment disliked Al Qaida more. Why has this not happened in Gaza either? If so many people want peace, why are they not doing anything about it? Becuase they're afraid of Hamas? Hamas's leaders are constantly getting bumped off by the ISraelis and Fatah, how could they be reasonably be expected to maintain control unless... they had a LARGE support base?




This is not 'my argument'. It is a simple fact that Hamas are indeed nothing more than a fascist police state and support for it was on the decline before the latest attack by Israe. They were the saviours when Fatah were in charge of security and Hamas were in charge of nothing more than 'spiritual' fortitude and providing welfare and relief. The militants were seen as heroic freedom fighters. However, since taking over control of security in Gaza and the in-fighting between Fatah and Hamas militants, their true colours as a bunch of extremist, ill disciplined violent thugs has come to light. They are now so heavy handed and brutal with their own people (who they suspect of being Fatah spies) that it is little wonder there is any no public show against them.

See for example:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/6430245.html

From that article:

article posted:Jihad Hamad, a Palestinian academician and analyst admitted that the popularity of Hamas movement had declined through the year of taking control of Gaza, saying it was "because of its harsh policy of arrests and repressions against those who are not affiliated with the movement."



Washington Post articl

 

Why aren't the neighbours objecting? Like it's a party going on next door which is a little too loud? This is a pointless exercise and I'm wasting my time.

 

Why aren't the neighbours objecting? Like it's a party going on next door which is a little too loud? This is a pointless exercise and I'm wasting my time.

That's a bad faith statement and you know it. People who see rockets being set up in thier neighborhoods are not powerless if, as you say, many of them don't want the rockets there. If there's only one or two men lauching these things, what would they do if 10-15 other men came up to take the rocket system away?

And if Hamas sent a contingent of men to get the rocket system back, they could be theoretically up against 10-15 armed men or more who would say they don't want this conflict being brought into thier neighborhoods.

But that doesn't happen. Why?

 

I read (I think in NYT) that if the Palistinians put down their weapons the violence would end. If Israel put down it's weapons then Israel would end.

That kinda says it all.

 

Gonk, you surprise me.
You're basically saying that citizens in an embargoed, locked-down strip of desert without access to food or water should overpower armed insurgents at any time of day.

J-Rod, maybe the violence would end, but one of them would have no land.

 

You're basically saying that citizens in an embargoed, locked-down strip of desert without access to food or water should overpower armed insurgents at any time of day.

I'm saying that if you give them force of numbers... and take into account that the armed insurgents are ALSO in this embargoed, locked-down strip of desert without access to food or water... yes, they very well COULD.

Hamas isn't this crack team of commandoes, and isn't particularly sitting on a wealth of supplies themselves. The men they have that are adequately trained are probably few and far between. And it's not like the average citizens in Gaza couldn't get thier hands on necessary weapons if they put thier heads together.

I don't expect average citizens of whatever number to stand any sort of chance combatting a highly trained and funded force like the IDF. But Hamas not only cannot hold a candle to the IDF, they're not even well organized when compared to Hezbollah. When you get down to it, what really seperates the "armed insurgent" from any Palestinian who chooses to pick up a rifle? What tanks does Hamas have? What artillery? What air force?

Considering citzens who got together like this could probably get help from outside... because Lord knows Jordan would see an advantage, Fatah would see one, Egypt would see one, Syria would probably not mind, and Israel would probably benefit... I don't see how a number comprising 42% of the population when Hamas has only 16 or so % approval (a number lower than Bush's approval rating) could not give Hamas a serious challenge.

 

Would they? I mean if the Palistinians were not killing Israelies, would it be as big of a deal to Israel where they settled?

Look man, I'm no expert of Mid-East history, but from what I understand the Palistinians have been booted from every nation that they have ever settled in because they've waged war with every nation they've settled in.

It's my understanding that Egypt, Saudi, Jordan and Persia have all ran the Palistinians out of their nations because all they can trade in is war. And now these same nations look at the Palistinians as "good guys" because they've now settled in Israel and have begun plying their trade.

What other choice is there but to kill any Palistinian who would bring arms against a civillian target?

 

[image=http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-content/palestine_olmert_plan_maps.jpg]

It looks to me like the Israelis have already done what J-Rod is afraid the Palestinians will do.

 

A frequent pro-Hamas argument is that as a fairly elected government, they are legitimate. That's how they came into power; they didn't force themselves on the citizens of Gaza.

Egypt and the other Arab nations don't want to improve the situation in Gaza. For decades, it's been a headache for Israel, and Israel's regional rivals are quite happy to let Israel struggle with this ongoing, intractable issue.

It would be. There are more Palestinians than Israelis in the region. They certainly have a higher birthrate. That's why a one-state solution is unacceptable for Israel. Arabs would outnumber Jews, and the elected government would reflect that. It wouldn't be a Jewish state, which was kind of the whole point in the first place.

So, if everyone in Gaza moved to Israel and lived peacefully, or became a part of Israel and lived peacefully, they would still in effect destroy Israel. (Well they might also need some people in the West Bank and refugees from Jordan, but you get the picture.)

 

Is that what you really believe? Really?

You are saying that the Israelis have been and are targetting civilians and taking land with no provocation?

I think you know better.

Look, we are dealling with people who fire rockets from U.N.schools and then film the Israelis returning fire. Then they use that film to try to show that Israel is the aggressor and is attacking civilian targets. Stop it. Please.

If Israel was the bad guy then there would be no need for Hamas to lie. They could simply use a real example.

The press would eat it up.

EDIT: I took a look at the blog that you got that map from...

...Really?

 

You are saying that the Israelis have been and are targetting civilians and taking land with no provocation?

Where did I say anything about targeting civilians?

And yes they were (and are with the settlements) taking land with no provocation. That is the entire point of the conflict. And while they may not target civilians, Israel has killed far more civilians than Hamas or other Palestinian groups.


EDIT: I took a look at the blog that you got that map from...

...Really?

I've never read that blog and got there by a link. The map itself is from the London Times from a couple years back (I can't seem to find a link), so if you have an issue with it, lets hear it.

 

Oh come on. Hamas has been kidnapping soldiers and firing rockets at Israel for months.

This is known as provocation in all areas outside of the U.N.

If some foriegn power kidnapped you I would like to believe that we would moblize a military operation for your return...and I would support it. Not to mention the whole "shooting us with rockets" thing.

There is enough disinformation going around without the need to add to it.

 

J-Rod, what part of take your land and blockade you in a ghetto don't you understand?

Those are acts of war and they have been occurring for far longer than a couple of months.

 

Uhm, J-Rod, that's exactly what has been happening, Settlers have been targetting civilians and making unprovoked landgrabs for decades now. Blatant denial just shows how poorly you are informed of the whole situation.

 

Saw my Minister of Foreign Affairs on the news just yet.
He's condemning Hamas, not Israel.
After all, "Hamas-fires-on-civilian-targets".

I look at the body count. Eight hundred Palestinians dead, ten Israelis.

"I know Israel as a justice state", he says. While according to Rome Statute, it can be classified as an apartheid state.

This double standard is sickening. I'm-a do something I've never done before: I'm going to write a letter to the newspaper. This guy ain't representing me.

 

Yeah, but Verhagen is CDA and, shudder, Catholic. What did you really expect? I don't know what they say in Holland, but over here he would be a 'tsjeef' and that's how they view the world.

 

Yankee,

Oh I knew full well the grounds I had for any sort of optimism were already slim and would likely recede further. It comes back to that satanic pact between the bastards on all sides.

As to DG's question about Jerusalem, part of me says render it unto God by nuking it so it becomes an irradiated hellhole no one would desire, however, in this I'm doubtless underestimating the maniac fringe of religion which would various extremists going to claim - even if that entails fatal radiation sickness.

 

I dunno. Homestly, that isn't the way it looks from here. It looks like Israel is and has been trying to put the Palistinians somewhere where they can't continue their violence and distructive behavior against them. And as I said, this has been the Palistinian calling card reguardless of where they live for the entire Palistinian history.

To blame this aspect of Palistinian lifestyle and leadship on Israel seems a little short-sighted to me.

 

Wrote two newspapers! Woot.

Tsjeef? I didn't know that term. I just call him the minister of human rights, because that's what he'd like to be known as. Meanwhile signing off on papers that allow Dutch companies to operate in Israeli settlements on the West Bank.

But not all CDA politicians are bad, not all Catholics are bad. There's a former PM and Foreign Minister, both CDA, actively promoting different ideas. But, like Mandela and Carter - why do they always have to be former?

By the way, speaking of former - haven't heard zilch from Blair. Wasn't he declared Special Envoy? What's he up to? Yo, Blair!

 

From the Amnesty International Report"Killing the Future: Children in the Line of Fire" stated:

If you want to get back into the 'who's worse' debate then please tell me what the moral difference is between one side firing rockets indiscriminately into densely populated civilian areas and the other side dropping powerful bombs, delivered by aircraft, into densely populated areas and on top of densely populated apartment buildings? The reason? Because Israel wanted to assassinate somebody suspected of terrorist activities. Suspected. This is the behaviour that drives the resistance against Israel and feeds the fire of extremist retaliation.

Gonk, I can only reiterate that Hamas were elected on the basis of their perceived status as a group capable of representing the interests of the Gazans against the worse effects of the Israeli blockade. They were and still are regarded as a tough resistance organisation. That is the key point that you are missing. Hamas were not elected in a time of peace and tranquility. They were elected in a time of desperation and depair. Whilst there are those that still hold out hope that Hamas will achieve a resolution, the tide was turning against them when Israel instigated its current action. If you truly understood the conditons in Gaza you would understand that mounting an organised resistance against the very organisation that are ostensibly 'protecting' them against IDF hostility is just not a realistic proposition. Again I can only reiterate that Hamas have become something of an oppressor since they took over security from Fatah following on from their conflict with Fatah security forces. There is now a division where Hamas militants are forced to be heavy handed against perceived Fatah forces.

There is also Islamic Jihad and other extremist groups firing rockets. Hamas actually gets blamed for rockets fired by Islamic Jihad.

I am optimistic that once this all boils over and eventually when the Palestinians achieve their own state, then the likes of Hamas and Islamic Jihad will be consigned to oblivion the same way as Jewish terrorist gr

 

What part of Hamas seeks the elimination of Israel and the extermination of the Jews do you not understand?

What sort of compromise is possible with that? Care to enlighten us?

 

Hey, Smuggler! That's funny, I was just talking 'bout misinformation in the other thread.

...Sources?

 

Smuggler, the issue of the Hamas charter is quite controversial and I agree with you that it appears quite silly for Hamas to negotiate a ceasefire with Israel when it's own charter does not even recognise Israel and calls fo its destruction. Clearly it will have to change. However, if you look at the negotiation that has taken place between Hamas and Israel then clearly they have tacitly recognised Israel depsite it's charter.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/985012.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7459200.stm

 

Hey J-Rod, I don't believe the Palestinains settled in Israeli land, I believe it was actually the other way around...

 

Pfff...
Just waded through it, the Hamas charter.
Man, a whole lotta Allahs and Jihads in there.

Yeah, the destruction of Israel is pretty prevalent, but I don't see the annihilation of Jews mentioned anywhere. In fact, there's more room for Jews in this Charter than there is for, ahem, atheists...

No, really: what this Charter reminds me of is those Shas foundations I read about, yesterday. Nothing more, nothing less. Exact same content. The radicals on both sides both just want all of the land.

So can anyone tell me again why are we backing one of them?