Issues regarding the CR Code of Conduct

Discussion in 'FanForce Communications' started by anakin_girl, Nov 16, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. LordJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2001
    star 4
    I know a lot of bans happen with out warning, but since I know you, I think you should have given me the courtsey of talking to me before giving it to Shawn.

    I gave it to Shawn because he's the President. I'm just a lowly off-line media director. I honestly don't know if I'd have liked it if someone with a position that could be deemed below them, as I feel my position is, PMed me and asked me to change a post. Of course, that goes back to asking other people to babysit your posts.

    Quick! Let's handle it decreeting behind their back.

    We were discussing it, nothing more. We were NOT going to make any decisions until giving you an opportunity to explain your actions. You chose to resign and bring it into the open before we got that far. Sounds like someone else we know.

    Oh, I can't wait for Shawn to name you CR

    The CR isn't named. It's an elected position. There are currently two people that have been nominated. And quite frankly, they are both equally as qualified.

    Yet my posts took place in JCC.

    Should it matter? Everyone that has a title in OCFF is asked to act in a proper manner ANYWHERE in the ENTIRE JC. There are specific rules in the JC for the CR, but OCFF has their own rules as well, which, if I'm not mistaken, is in the officer's code of conduct.

    I was at the JC before FF and I refuse to post like a happy helper simply because I want to be involved in my local fan force chapter.

    Again, I think people take the statement of always posting in a helpful manner a little to far. I'll admit, I don't always post in a helpful manner. Sometimes I'm a little sarcastic. But I would never, even jokingly, consider posting things like that.
  2. droideka27 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 7
    I just thought that the FF staff should be aware that they are driving people away.

    That's what this is about, not really me specifically. So, I'll try to keep it off that from now on. I am just a tad upst, so it's hard.

    FF has some really ...strong rules, and people generally get too into their made up power and start taking things too seriously. Fan Force should be fun, not over who can rule over who and tell who what they should do.

    And this rule of being a model poster is just that. It's overbearing and unneccessary.

    CRs and Officers of Fan Forces have NO e-power whatsoever, yet are required to act as role models. Why is that? For lucasfilm? For their Chpater president? That one at least makes some sense.
  3. Obi Anne FF admin Celebrations, Europe

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 1998
    star 7
    I do not understand how it does not make sense acting in a nice and helpful manner to any potential new member around the boards, and then it doesn't matter if it's a LFL employee the chapter president or just anyone.
  4. TK7771 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 4
    I do not understand how it does not make sense acting in a nice and helpful manner to any potential new member around the boards, and then it doesn't matter if it's a LFL employee the chapter president or just anyone.


    New members are one thing. I agree that everyone should help them learn their way around the boards.But if their being flamed,harrassed,or just being treated like poodoo.They should have the right to defend themselves!!

  5. Sebulba-X •X C2 C3 MW RSA•

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2000
    star 6
    Defend themselves against what? Fellow 12-year-old star wars geeks typing words into a computer? This is threat? And when is someone flammed/attacked for no reason?

    While it's harder and harder to tell the difference between the JC & FF, almost all of the "board" rules are the JC's, so if you have a problem with those, then you'll need to visit the JC Comms forum. The FF Administration asking groups to elect someone to be a good representative of both the local club and FF in general isn't asking too much. It doesn't affect my job, but I can't wear jeans or smoke at my computer during work...if I want to do those things then I need to go find another job. If a CR has a problem being respectful to anyone anywhere on these forums, then they should step down. Being a CR isn't an honor, it's a job with two bosses, your club & the FF Administration, either of whom have the right to hold you to their separate standards of conduct.
  6. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    A warning was given earlier in the thread before it was locked. It was given to everyone in the thread. It seems, from my viewpoint, that things spiraled down from there and then the thread was locked.

    A global warning from a JCC mod is not the same thing as a personal warning from the people that are about to ban her. Threads get warnings all the time to stay on topic. Social threads, especially. That doesn't mean that you can instantly ban anyone that posts after a warning to stay on topic.

    I was actually in the process of PMing a mod when the thread was locked. I agree that the comments should have been edited out as well.

    But they weren't. JCC mods deal with threads and comments like that every single day and they didn't feel the need to edit, warn, or ban Tracy. Think of JCC mods as dentists. A dentist knows which teeth to pull and when to do it. They decided that none of them needed to be pulled. You guys, on the other hand, are like the crazy uncle that insists the tooth needed to be pulled and dentists don't know what they're doing to begin with, so you break out the pliers and go to town with no anesthesia.

    Sure, it's fine to say "she should have been banned", but maybe I think your comment in this thread was offensive. You called people making minimum wage "poor slob(s)". My dad makes minimum wage. [face_plain] I think that comment should have been edited out, but it wasn't. I think the JCC mods should have warned you, but they didn't. In fact, they didn't find a single thing wrong with it, just like they found nothing wrong with Tracy's posts. I didn't try to get you demoted as offline media director, but it appears I should have, as anything mildly offensive is enough to strip someone of their title and ban them for 4 days.

    If by higher-ups you mean, initially, a few officers, I guess you'd be right. Are we not aloud to read Community now? And our FF CR Code of Conduct, as well as the one linked to, does not specifically say JC or FF boards. Again, I was in the process of PMing a mod when it was locked. It was, IMO, getting way out of hand.

    But the FF CR Code of Conduct does have a specific consequence for when something happens the first time.

    Or just be reading Community like we always do. Seriously, do you think we go looking for people to come down on? Like I said, I had no idea any of it was a joke. I knew some of the people in there from posts on Community, but I didn't know how many of them knew each other.

    But it should have occurred to you that the JCC mods weren't locking it for a reason. They didn't have a problem with the thread, because they knew that we were all friends. Had you PMed a JCC mod about it, they would probably have told you that. If one of them thought for a second that any of the so-called racist comments were serious, the person making the comment would have their post edited, they would be warned, and they would probably be banned. Anyone familiar with the TOS should know that. But they knew we weren't serious. The fact that they knew it should have been a good sign to anyone posting in the thread that it was all a joke.

    I didn't even look at her WUL, so I had no idea what she was doing. I didn't expect her to ever post anything like that. Do people need to look at other peoples WUL everytime they post something to see if it might just be a joke? And I honestly didn't realize the person posts in the same threads as her, probably cause I don't necessarily read/post in all the same threads she or the other person does.

    So you've never looked at Tracy's WUL and you've never looked at threads that she posts in, but you just happened to wander into a thread where most of us had the same signature, we were making loads of inside jokes with each other, and calling each other by our RL names, but you didn't think for a second, "Oh, hey, this might be a joke."?

    Once more, I did not realize you were friends. I only know now
  7. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I think people are forgetting to put the CR rules of Conduct into perspective.

    Lets face it. The Force.net attracts a large amount of Star Wars fans. A large portion of those people visit the message forums everyday.

    At some point, those users will discover the regional forums and look for the chapter closest to them.

    Now this person could be the best asset a FanForce chapter could ever have. The next President of the club, or a fantastic publicity person. Even if that person isn't, a new member is a new member. Every group always wants to welcome new members.

    So what happens when he or she goes to their local forum and see the type of comments that are being discussed. They won't know its a joke. They may be extremely offended. The person will certainly not be joining that club, and will consider FanForce itself in a poor light.


    No offense, but anyone that would see something like that an be offended, then not make any attempt to ask someone about it, ask the person that said it, or even look to see if the flamer and the flamee are friends...well, I wouldn't exactly call them an asset. I would call them a few other things, but I don't want to get banned for 4 days. :) (<--that's also a joking smiley right there, in case anyone doesn't understand)

    Want a third example? What about the Lucasfilm employee who decides to visit his old hometown forum to say Hi? What do you think he'll be telling his co-workers about what he saw in that forum?

    Shouldn't it be the JCC mods who decide things like that? If a LFL employee came to the boards, he probably wouldn't give a crap if a person has a name in blue or not. If they were going to be offended, they would be offended regardless of whether or not the person has a title.

    I do not understand how it does not make sense acting in a nice and helpful manner to any potential new member around the boards, and then it doesn't matter if it's a LFL employee the chapter president or just anyone.

    There's nothing wrong with acting nicely to new members, but there's nothing wrong with joking with friends either.

    While it's harder and harder to tell the difference between the JC & FF, almost all of the "board" rules are the JC's, so if you have a problem with those, then you'll need to visit the JC Comms forum.

    But Tracy didn't break the JC rules. She didn't even get warned by the JCC mods. If she had clearly broken the rules and the JC mods agreed with you, I wouldn't be here. She would deserve what she got. But she didn't. Almost all of the rules are the same, yes, but it appears that something not even warning-worthy at one place is something worty of a 4-day ban and demotion at the other place. That's a fairly huge discrepancy.

    Being a CR isn't an honor, it's a job with two bosses, your club & the FF Administration, either of whom have the right to hold you to their separate standards of conduct.

    But it's a job with no power or dignity whatsoever. They can't even moderate their own forums. Apparently the only duties that a CR has are offline. There are no perks to the "job". Tracy didn't get paid. Tracy didn't get respected. If someone was posting porn all over her board, Tracy couldn't even edit it out herself. There is no reason she should be held to a certain standard online when the only things she could do with her title were offline.
  8. Lord-of-the-Marks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 2
    I think droideka27 needs to be reinstated and receive a public apology.
  9. LukeSkiewalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2003
    star 4
    Reposted from CR Forum.

    If by saying this I am going to get in trouble I don't care. I agree with most of the CR's that there is very little reward that comes with being a CR and the title carries ridiculous penalties. Now I am not sticking up for what droideka27 did because it did Violate the TOS. However I find it interesting that non CR's in my FF haven't even gotten a warning for posting what I would consider even more offensive material.

    Futhermore, I think it was inappropriate for someone to cut and past quotes from droideka27's posts. If we wanted to be nosey and find out what she posted we could have done so on our own. That didn't even seem to be the issue. The issue was that CR's are getting banned without receiving a warning. Even before this I am questioning more and more why I am a CR.

    And as to someone else saying that they were banned for expressing their polictical opinons seems to be a ridiculous way to moderate a website. From what I have seen in the Senate floor as long as you are an non VIP you can say whatever you want. But as soon as you get your colors you are automatically forced into becoming a protocol droid who has not been programmed with the ability to form opinions. It's almost if the only people we can express our opinions to is other CR's. If we do it to anybody else we either get banned or disrespected because we have a bright and shiny blue colored name.

    But hey that's just what I think.

    NOTE: This is an exact copy of what I posted so I am sorry if some of it doesn't make sense in this thread. I wanted to post it in here also because by the time I made my post droideka27 was not allowed in the CR forum, and I felt non VIP's should be able to hear my thoughts.
  10. Lord-of-the-Marks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 2
    I wanted to post it in here also because by the time I made my post droideka27 was not allowed in the CR forum, and I felt non VIP's should be able to hear my thoughts.

    So, she's not allowed to defend herself?
  11. droideka27 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 7
    Futhermore, I think it was inappropriate for someone to cut and past quotes from droideka27's posts.

    If that did happen, I am apalled. Pasting quotes from that thread will present me in a very unfavorable light, and show the quotes as something I meant literally. It almost seems as if whoever did that would be trying to portray me in a bad light [face_plain]

    Especially since I can't give my side on the issue... AND since my demotion already occurred... AND since I am unbanned.
  12. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Wow. So Tracy not only got banned without warning, she's being discussed behind her back for no particular reason now. She's already beeb banned, unbanned, and demoted, guys. Beating someone while they're down is fun, I know, but have some decency.
  13. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Being a CR isn't an honor, it's a job with two bosses, your club & the FF Administration, either of whom have the right to hold you to their separate standards of conduct.

    And no paycheck or benefits. [face_plain]

    I am not opposed to requiring people to be nice. I am in the JC Coms right now fighting against what I term the "right to be rude". However, I think it is completely unfair to ask me or any other CR to be nicer than other people on the forums, or to allow ourselves to be treated like doormats, when we get nothing in return.

    gwaernardel: I started the same thread in the CR forum that I started here because I felt it was relevant, so yes, we are "talking behind her back" to an extent--but I assure you that Tracy knows everything that is going on in that thread. ;)
  14. LordJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2001
    star 4
    I just thought that the FF staff should be aware that they are driving people away.

    Funny, our membership has grown more than any of us ever expected. We've lost maybe 3 members due to various circumstances.

    New members are one thing. I agree that everyone should help them learn their way around the boards.But if their being flamed,harrassed,or just being treated like poodoo.They should have the right to defend themselves!!

    Well, this wasn't a new member being attacked. And I agree with Sebulba on this one. Just ignore them or PM a mod.

    You called people making minimum wage "poor slob(s)".

    And this is the equivalent to telling someone not to procreate because of their religion how? Yes, I know you two were joking now. I didn't then.

    So you've never looked at Tracy's WUL and you've never looked at threads that she posts in

    Honestly, no. I may have glanced at her WUL once, but I didn't pay that close of attention to it. And I've certainly looked at threads she posts in, but I don't always pay attention to the names of every person posting in threads. And I didn't look at those thread by viewing her latest posts, I just happen to go into them as well.

    but you just happened to wander into a thread where most of us had the same signature, we were making loads of inside jokes with each other, and calling each other by our RL names, but you didn't think for a second, "Oh, hey, this might be a joke."?

    Yeah, pretty much. Honestly, I don't read signatures that often, so I probably didn't notice. At the time, I believe you had different signatures (I could be mistaken). And your RL names also happen to be in your profiles. So it would be easy enough to click on your board name and get your real name. That is honestly what I thought she did (couldn't figure out who Beca was until I clicked your board name). That I've done more than once (click a name to find their real name).

    Once more, I question why you were even in the thread if you claim that you've never looked at threads Tracy posted in before.

    And once again we come back to the question of whether or not everyone is just allowed to browse threads at their whim (exactly what I do) or if they should have to know everyone in the thread before hand. Argh! I never said I didn't look at threads that she's posted in before. I don't sit at my computer looking at her latest posts, waiting to go into a thread that she does. I said that I don't think I've been in many threads where THE BOTH OF YOU have posted. And yes, I checked both of your latest posts to double-check that. I may have posted in a few, but let me say it again. I don't read every single persons name as I'm reading their posts. I pay more attention to icons then names and even that is very little.

    And I didn't know certain members of these boards had their own little threads where no one else could come. I'll try to avoid them in the future, but no promises :p <-- see, i'm kidding :)

    If you know Tracy at all, you know that we're friends and that in several threads recently we've been posting and poking fun at each other.

    I never claimed to know Tracy that well. I don't know any of her friends, except for Phil, Britt, and her OCFF friends (and now you). I know some things about her, but probably not enough to call her a close friend. That's nothing against her, I'm sure she's a great person. Every interaction I've had with her has been great. I've gotten together with her to "hang out" about once a month (sometimes twice a month) for a year or so and I don't chat with her that much online. I don't claim to know everything about her and I never have. Which, again, is why I was a little shocked that she would be posting something like that. How did I know she wasn't trying to get banned for some reason?

    Also, denotes seriousness now? Funny, I thought it could mean a joke too. You should really write an FAQ for this stuff. I can never keep it straight. (<--that smiley is meant as a joke, in ca
  15. droideka27 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 7
    I would like to encourage other CRs to share their thoughts here in this thread, though, so us non-VIPs can read them :)

    EDIT: PS so you didn't know they were my friends, but you knew they were all "DB trolls"??
  16. Lord-of-the-Marks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 2
    LordJedi: You didn?t read the wul?s, you didn?t pay attention to anyone?s sig, you don?t really know tracy, you don?t really know her friends.

    These are all your words. Tell me, how can someone make an informed decision knowing so little?
  17. LordJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2001
    star 4
    If a LFL employee came to the boards, he probably wouldn't give a crap if a person has a name in blue or not. If they were going to be offended, they would be offended regardless of whether or not the person has a title.

    Unless it then jeopardizes that fan forces relationship with LFL.

    she's being discussed behind her back for no particular reason now

    Hmm, sounds like someone else I know.

    She's already beeb banned, unbanned, and demoted, guys. Beating someone while they're down is fun, I know, but have some decency.

    One more time. She resigned.

    However, I think it is completely unfair to ask me or any other CR to be nicer than other people on the forums, or to allow ourselves to be treated like doormats, when we get nothing in return.

    What's wrong with just being nice all the time? Seriously, a little sarcasm is probably ok, but why can't people just be nice to each other around here. And last I checked, you do get to view boards that other people don't. Sure, you can't moderate, but even the mods don't get anything in return except flak (at least that's the way it seems).
  18. droideka27 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 7
    I am on the TPM trivia team.... I get to see a special board for that! Does that mean I should be subjected the same sort of rules?
  19. LordJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2001
    star 4
    These are all your words. Tell me, how can someone make an informed decision knowing so little?

    When I hear someone on the street say something nasty or racist to anyone, I don't think I should have to know anything about the people or their friendship. Those kinds of things are just wrong, IMO. Not only that, but when I'm in public, I can hear the people laughing and hear their tone to know the context. I have no such luxury online outside of smileys (which can be deceiving).

    This isn't like a news story where a kid gets shot by the cops and everyone automatically assumes the cops were wrong. This was a bad comment made to a friend where the third party didn't know the two were friends. Do I now need to make completely informed decisions about what people post in order to form my own opinions? Again, this isn't an issue of law. This is an issue of a comment that was made.

    On a related matter, just because black friends call each other ******* doesn't mean I think it's right. I think it's appalling but it's accepted by the black community at large (in the LA area anyway). I don't care how good of friends people are, that word just should not be used. That is, IMO, how I view this situation. Same goes for any race, that just happens to be the first example that popped into my head.
  20. droideka27 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 7
    And I don't think it's wrong. What's your point? That we all have opinions?

    The most important opinions here were that of the JCC mods, and that of my FF President. The JCC mods were ok with it. Shawn wasn't, but didn't see fit to tell me until after I was banned, which resulted in confusion and hurt feelings and my resignation.
  21. LordJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2001
    star 4
    EDIT: PS so you didn't know they were my friends, but you knew they were all "DB trolls"??

    Ugh! After, AFTER, what happened is when I found out. No one told me until AFTER I mentioned what you said to Beca. If I had been told beforehand, I might've had a different opinion.

    I am on the TPM trivia team.... I get to see a special board for that! Does that mean I should be subjected the same sort of rules?

    ?[face_plain] Um, are you referring to the rules for people with titles or the CR rules? I guess either answer would be a big no. And I'm sure you were being sarcastic (no smileys, so I don't know) :) If you weren't, oh [face_plain]

    And I don't think it's wrong. What's your point? That we all have opinions?

    Yep
  22. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Well, this wasn't a new member being attacked. And I agree with Sebulba on this one. Just ignore them or PM a mod.

    So they're encouraged to PM a mod, but it's too much trouble for you to PM Tracy when her comment offends you?

    And this is the equivalent to telling someone not to procreate because of their religion how? Yes, I know you two were joking now. I didn't then.

    It is to me. And isn't that what should matter? I was offended by it. You were offended by Tracy's comment. That was enough to get her banned, so I don't see why mine is any less offensive. If I wanted to, I could gather up enough people that find it offensive and maybe have you demoted. So there's really no difference.

    Honestly, no. I may have glanced at her WUL once, but I didn't pay that close of attention to it. And I've certainly looked at threads she posts in, but I don't always pay attention to the names of every person posting in threads. And I didn't look at those thread by viewing her latest posts, I just happen to go into them as well.

    I wish I lived in a happy oblivious world where I never noticed anyone's name or profile. Ever. Did I say anything about noticing every person that posts in threads with her? I would give you that if most of my posts lately weren't directly addressed to Tracy, as hers were to mine. But do you really think some kid who had no idea who either of us were would think that she really didn't like me because of my race? Hell, one of the JCC mods is Jewish and he didn't find the comment offensive to him, apparently.

    Yeah, pretty much. Honestly, I don't read signatures that often, so I probably didn't notice. At the time, I believe you had different signatures (I could be mistaken). And your RL names also happen to be in your profiles. So it would be easy enough to click on your board name and get your real name. That is honestly what I thought she did (couldn't figure out who Beca was until I clicked your board name). That I've done more than once (click a name to find their real name).

    Okay, let's recap. You didn't know who I was until you clicked on my profile. While there, you most likely saw my WUL, where Tracy is one of maybe 30 people that I'm watching, and so are pretty much everyone else posting in the thread. You went back to the thread, neglected to notice that pretty much everyone in the thread had the same signature and seemed to know the same in-jokes, saw Tracy say something about Jewish babies, didn't ask her about it, didn't post in the thread asking her about it, didn't PM a mod to lock or edit the thread (even though you claim you were about to), and yet you still think it wasn't right to even warn her before giving her a 3-day ban. Looks like you have some very well-researched opinions there. :)

    And once again we come back to the question of whether or not everyone is just allowed to browse threads at their whim (exactly what I do) or if they should have to know everyone in the thread before hand. Argh! I never said I didn't look at threads that she's posted in before. I don't sit at my computer looking at her latest posts, waiting to go into a thread that she does. I said that I don't think I've been in many threads where THE BOTH OF YOU have posted. And yes, I checked both of your latest posts to double-check that. I may have posted in a few, but let me say it again. I don't read every single persons name as I'm reading their posts. I pay more attention to icons then names and even that is very little.

    What? You post at a social board. Full of people. That's not just a bunch of ones and zeroes you're speaking to. I'd think you'd know that, having the whole real-life aspect to it. The name of the forum is Jedi Council Community and you can't be bothered to see who's saying what? Good lord.

    And I didn't know certain members of these boards had their own little threads where no one else could come. I'll try to avoid them in the future, but no promises :p <-- see, i'm kidding

    No one said that people couldn't come into the t
  23. Lord-of-the-Marks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 2
    droideka27 EDIT: PS so you didn't know they were my friends, but you knew they were all "DB trolls"??

    LordJedi: Ugh! After, AFTER, what happened is when I found out. No one told me until AFTER I mentioned what you said to Beca. If I had been told beforehand, I might've had a different opinion.

    You can always make things right, even after the fact.
  24. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    When I hear someone on the street say something nasty or racist to anyone, I don't think I should have to know anything about the people or their friendship. Those kinds of things are just wrong, IMO. Not only that, but when I'm in public, I can hear the people laughing and hear their tone to know the context. I have no such luxury online outside of smileys (which can be deceiving).

    IMO is the key part of this statement. In your opinion, these things are wrong. You aren't the one that locks, edits, warns, and bans people. We have mods for that. While your opinions may be wonderful, (I happen to think mine are) they are not the opinions of the JCC mods who didn't feel the need to edit her comments.

    I've had several disagreements with the JC administration. I fought them over it, but I didn't take matters into my own hands and start handing out bans because of some perceived authority over their forums.

    PS- 2 things.
    1. My name is Becca. Not Beca. But you can call me Frank.
    2. When quoting someone that had smileys in their post, the smileys don't show up unless you type in the code for them yourself. thx.
  25. Lord-of-the-Marks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 2
    IMO is the key part of this statement. In your opinion, these things are wrong. You aren't the one that locks, edits, warns, and bans people. We have mods for that. While your opinions may be wonderful, (I happen to think mine are) they are not the opinions of the JCC mods who didn't feel the need to edit her comments.

    Vigilantism and the code of the old west if it?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.