It has begun

Discussion in 'Pittsburgh, PA' started by corran_16201, Mar 19, 2003.

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  1. jedi_1966 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 3
    Yes,I support the DECISION to go in to Iraq,100%.
    Now in other countries,you ask? Inthe words of my apprentice,it most definately does depend on the situation.
    1. A threat to us as a country,our allies,our citizens.
    2. Has to be a DRASTIC situation,having absolutely exausted all other options to resolve the situation.
  2. jaster_meerle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2002
    star 3
    i agree with corran in thinking that saddam has drawn the line and he is a threat to everybody, even his own people.
    Saberpilot- i respect your opinion but i would just hope that if you pray, pray for the troops over there. As my dad was in the military i know how it could be to have a loved one in harms way. i bet you do care about them- but please dont do one of those things where you are so caught up in anti-war spirit that you forget what people are risking for us.
    it is time to join together instead of arguing- instead of talking about war or no war we should think about the troops in the feild and what they are doing for us.
    god bless america
  3. greencat336 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2001
    star 5
    I respect and support the men and women of the US military. Someone from just about every generation of my family has served in the US military all the way back to the American Revolution. It is the bravery and decication of the military that allows for the freedom we all enjoy (like the freedom to express our true beliefs, even unpopular ones) I also love my country. I fully believe that the US is one of the best countries in the world, in a large part because of the basis for our system -- The Constitution and the Bill of Rights. But that doesn't mean I think the US is perfect and can do no wrong. One of the resons that I think the US is wonderful is BECAUSE citizens CAN criticize the policies of the goverment without worring about being hauled off to jail or shot.

    However supporting our military doesn't mean I have to agree with the policies of the current leaders of the US. Almost every one of Bush's policies I disagree with. From his stance on the environment to tax cuts for the richest in our country while gutting social programs for the poorest.

    I do not believe that Iraq is a direct threat to the US. As for his 'helping plan' the attacks on 9-11, there is NO evidence he did anything except approve of the attacks after they were over. If the evidence of the link between Al Qidan & Sudaam were very strong, THAT would be the main thing being used to justify this war. But its not. Instead the reasons you hear are 'freeing the Iraqi people' and the very very vague 'remove the threat in that region' Just like many many many other Anti-American peoples all over the world, Sadam's regime applauded the terror of 9-11. Remember those awful videos of people dancing in the street after the attacks -- those weren't Iraqis. They were Palestines (because of America's alliance with Isreal -- side note: There's a case of the US HELPING an oppressive government that regularily kills civilians, including children. NOT that I support the Palestines. I think they are just as wrong as Isreal, with the Palestine sucide bombs killing civilians. Personally, I think both sides are now only interested in annihalating each other, not in finding a way to peacefully co-exist, and I'd love to see the US pull 100% of our aid to Isreal until they can learn to live together. But that's another debate) Oh, and lets not forget, while Sadaam was fighting Iran (ally of Soviet Russia) he was an ALLY of the US, and we gave him lots of weapons and money. Think that all of a sudden he went from being a nice guy to evil?? He was just as terrible a dictor while our ally in the Cold War. The only difference is now the Cold War is over and we don't need him to use against the Communists. So lets just forget this self-righteous nonsense of the US fighting against oppression -- we only fight against oppressioin in the world when it serves some advantage (political or otherwise) to ourselves. Get out a map and check out just about any country in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. Odds are your going to pick a country with a brutal, repressive, corrupt government.

    As for the peace protestors, check out that First Amendment. One of the freedoms our troops are protecting is that right to express one's beliefs. EVERYONE has the right to his or her own opinion. To use an old quote "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" Protesting the President's foreign policy is NOT the same as disrespecting our military.

  4. corran_16201 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 3
    I take no stance on the Isreal situation simply because we are partly to blame. I mean kicking the palestines out to make the Jews their own country was one more addition to the long sad list of bad ideas. So i symphasize with both sides of the issue. my best guess to solve it would be maybe a joint democracy or maybe robin williams suggestion a time share.

    And yes the 1st amdment allows you to critsize the gov't. Though I've noticed and it might be a sterotype that those you say that now are the first to deny it when they hear things they don't wanna hear
  5. MetalliJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
    star 4
    My thoughts on the war? I don't know what to think. The guy is crazy, hates us, has weapons of massdestruction that he will not destroy. What are we suposed to do, sit on our hands and say "now saddam you know you shouldn't do that." Should we be there maybe maybe not. Do we have the right to be there? It depends on who you ask. I believe that it was Teddy Roosevelt that envisioned the US as being the worlds police force. If we just sit here and try to talk things out what's to say we don't get attacked by Iraq. Then we go to war after millons of innocent people have died. Sometimes force is the only thing people will listen to. I have an Uncle in the 701st Air refueling wing that was called up 2 days before the war who was also over there back during desert shield and I have a good friend in the navy that is over there. I personally asked back when we were there the first time why didn't we finish the job. Will this actually solve some major problems? Probably not, but it just may help to prevent another 9/11 from happening.
  6. Mrs_jedi_1966 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 3
    At this point in time ~ I don't see the reasoning in questioning the war. Our men and women are there suffering, bleeding, and dieing. I think it's time to forget about who or what we agree with and put aside the right to protest and have your opinion known through marches and things along that line. We as people, as citizens of the United States, need to come together as patriotic Americans and support our country, our government, and our troops.

    As far as the government goes = they have made a lot of decisions I do not agree with. That is something I can not control except through voting < & then that's still not always enough >

    There was a very good point made on a radio talk show last night and as bad as it made the US sound, I had to agree with the caller. It was something to the idea of: We are critizing Saddam for building million dollar palaces while his people are suffering and starving. Think of the people in the United States who go to bed hungry, live off of macaroni 'n cheese, don't have health care, or don't even have a home. The last Senate Building that the US built cost $2 billion dollars. Why didn't we help our people that are suffering and starving?

    I agree with this caller ~ I don't agree with the government wastefully spending money that could be used in other areas. But like I said earlier, we ARE in the war already. Now, it shouldn't matter if you agree with it or not.
  7. Saberpilot Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    *backs up*

    Wait, wait, wait... Perhaps I should fully explain myself, because keeping silent apparently does not help in my front.

    *takes deep breath*

    I am a pacifist. Whether or not that means anything to anyone else, this is what it means to me: As a martial artist I was taught that the last resort is to attack. Martial artists are there to defend themselves, others, and run away (or get away- not a sign of cowardice.). Only as a last and final resort are we supposed to attack. Not only that, but I detest hurting any living being, as I feel it is something (religion) that adds to evil natures within this world.

    My feelings on the current situation: I feel that our government has become too much of an Orwell or Huxley vision of the future- where government leaders can make such a decision as to go to war without consulting the general public. Over 1/3 of the country is anti-war. But we still went to war because of G.W.B.'s decision. His reasons, I can speculate, but as I said before, I wish to keep my accusations short and no one to be insulted by my beliefs.

    I am not anti-military. Our troops are not at fault for the actions they may fulfill, but it is the fault of the leaders, in particular, our president, who has ordered these things to happen. I pray nightly for the safe return for all the innocents that we sent over there.

    Some of you may argue that soldiers are far from 'innocent'. However, ponder this: 98% of the soldiers over there are greenhorns, never having seen action in any way, shape, or form. They may be trained well, but none of them has actually looked into the face of the one they're supposed to kill. And those faces are the innocent Iraqi people.

    There could have been other options than to bomb Iraq so heavily that innocent children (yes, children- 50% of Iraq is under the age of 15) had to die. We have special ops teams and units who could have gotten into Iraq and assasinated Saddam without affecting the public. I know this because of all the other 'special missions' that we have performed since the gulf war. Many were not public, but trust me on this fact: We could have done this with little bloodshed had certain decisions been wiser.

    As I walk through school today with large peace signs on my backpack (that are eventually torn off by my pro-war classmates, and commented on by my pro-war teachers) I know that some people may not agree with me. Some people are angry that I would even consider not agreeing to open war with Iraq.

    A famous quote is 'Blessed are the peacemakers'. Many in the US, and around the world, are trying to make their voices heard, but no one seems to be listening except for those who criticize the anti-war front. Maybe my cause, and the cause of others to prevent bloodshed, is hopeless. But I will continue to fight against it with all my heart, for I will not live knowing I did not try to fight another death in this world.
  8. corran_16201 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 3
    First thing I'll say: No one is innocent in life. Silecne in the face of evil is accpetance of it.

    Second as a martial artist as well I made the decsion to only walk away if the opposing force is enough to kill me. Peace is great I love it but sometimes there is no other option and in those cases we do have to do the dirty deed as quickly as we can. And a covert ops to kill Saddam is basically not gonna happen since last time we tried it we lost- Bay of Pigs in Cuba.
  9. Fluke_Groundrunner Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2001
    star 4
    That's all well and good, but what happens after Iraq? Why has Saddam been singled out?
  10. jedi_master_sal Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 4
    I would like to give my personal opinion here as well as my experince opinion.

    First my personal opinion is that while President Bush did not make his case to the U.N., the U.N. is a puppet organization at best. There are constant wars between member nations of the U.N. These don't get as much attention though because they are much smaller, whether in actual size of nation or size of conflict. Do I think the time for war is now? Probably not. Do I think Saddam Hussien should be wiped from the earth. ABSOLUTELY! Regardless or the U.S.'s position in the past, we are allowed to change our mind. If not then what of slavery. We were obviously wrong then and have changed. We were wrong to kill hundred's of thousands of innocent Japanese in TWO atomic bombs but have since seen the error of our ways. Ten years ago much of the world looked to the US for protection or aid in some manner. We still provide that even to those who are in difference to our views. I do not think we should pull money from Israel. But on the other hand we should be helping the Palestinian people as well. One of the major reasons we don't is contributions and influence from affluent or influentual Jewish-American citizens. Maybe down the road if Arab-Americans were to contribute their voices would be heard more. Is this right, No. But this sort of thing happens all the time.
    Okay trying to get back on topic.
    There is proof that Saddam has used weapons of mass destruction on his own people. I will not be fooled into thinking he or his regime wouldn't use it against us.

    Call this a preemptive strike if you wish. Whatever the case, this man is dangerous. Because of his past crimes and the continued research into more potent weapons, he is a threat.

    I would like to remind everyone that I am a gulf war/Desert Shield/Desert Storm Veteran. I saw FIRSTHAND the atrocities committed by Saddam and his regime. I also saw dead and injured soldiers who were trying to protect Kuwait and the world at large form this monster.

    To put another perspective on this...
    Is this about OIL. Only in part. This should not be a shock. But we (the U.S.) do not have an interest in taking ove Iraq's oil as Saddam did Kuwait's in the early 90's. If Saddam would have gained control of Kuwait and we would have not intervened then he would have had a much bigger poriotn of the world's oil economy. Oil does control quite a bit of the world's economy. This is also one of the main reasons why France does not want to participate. The have dealings with Saddam for Iraq's oil. They, we can only guess, were fearing reprisals to the cost of Oil from Saddam should they have sided with us. On this not let me make a brief statement about Germany. I personally do not feel Germany should be on the security council. Mostly because of it's past history, but as mentioned above countries can change their respective ways and become vialble participants in the world at large. Iraq can as well, just not under Saddam. He repeatedly went against the U.N. by continuing to build WMD and killing his own people. He has had 12 years to disarm. Even though I don't neccessarily believe we should have gone now, it should have been soon. Do we wait until he perfect his WMD or better yet a nuclear bomb that he can sell to terrorists to kill innocent American or other nations peoples? NO!

    So we don't have proof that he would have used it against us, we don't have proof he wouldn't either. He could very easily launch these against Israel or even his neighboring Arab countries. Do say he wouldn't. lest you forget Kuwait!

    We've now seen that Iraq has American prisoners and has shown videotape of killed American soldiers piled up on top of one another. If you haven't seen these for yourselves, then please at my urging, do not go looking for them. They are gruesome. As I mentioned I know from first hand experience what he does in war. I've seen the dead of innocents and soldiers alike. While I would rather us not lose one American to this war, it is inevitable. I myself
  11. jaster_meerle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2002
    star 3
    first i would like to apologize for any statement that i may have made that were in any way opinionated (or immature?) to saberpilot
    GC is right about the ammendments, but i would also like to thatnk Msr.6 for clearing up what i was trying to say about forgeting war or anti-0war and standing united
    again i apologized for any offensivew comments
    please pray for our troops in the field and that there may be a swift end to this conflictt with the least ammount of casualties, human or civilian- and we all must remember the cost of war- as Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain said- "War is a test of character- it makes bad men worse and good men better."
    i hope that everything that comes out of this is good to some extent
    thank you
  12. corran_16201 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 3
    Good job Sal. And were all glad the patriots worked back then.
    I'd like to re word one of my earlier statements about innocence since I kinda ran outta time.
    Yes innocent people exist under the law but to remain quite when something atroucious is commited is accpeting it. Or another way as one of my favorite authors put it-"its not so much that evil doesn't exist its that too many people have made their peace with it." Which is one reason why I made the choice to join the FBI when I can and if not their I'm off to the State Cops and if I fail there it will the military.
  13. jaster_meerle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2002
    star 3
    cool idea corran
    im gonna be a navy jet jock, like my fathger before me
    just had to say that- it may shine some much needed light i think
  14. jaster_meerle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2002
    star 3
    i would just like to add that in times of difficulty, binding together makes us stronger
    please remember that no matter what we believe we are all Americans and the thing that makes America great is that we can all put aside our differences to support a commen cause or a cause that we are fighting for
    you all have the right to not like the President, i personally think he is doing a great job, and we should all remember that he was elected by there people, in a fair and peaceful mannor- if we do not defend ourselves we will become a nation where nothing can be a peaceful matter
    by protecting our selves we are steping closer to peace- Linclon said "I may be a slow walker, but i never walk backwards"
    we are, like Lincoln, moving closer to the peace we all striving for
    please, again, keep our troops and the world in your prayers
    god bless america
  15. jedi_1966 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 3
    Saberpilot:Very good,chic.You go girl!

    Yes,in the end let us ALL come together...thatis ALL that matters now,regardless of what each of us believes.
  16. jaster_meerle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2002
    star 3
    thank you jedi 66 cause when i tried to explain that earlier i got a history class from GC- no offense greencat- it was interesting and i love anythoing with history
    i feel anoither quoote comming on- "It is history that gives us hope"- Robert E. Lee
    i hope that this can be a quick war that it may be like desert storm- with very little casualties- and may the Iraqi people get hope from it that the, like us, will be set free from their opprrsive ruler as we did in the revolution- i just hope everything pays off
  17. jaster_meerle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2002
    star 3
    I do not support our actions in Iraq. While fully acknowledging Sadaam is a very very evil dictactor, I have yet to be convinced that he is a direct threat to the US. The connection between Iraq and Al Qida is tenious at best. There are lots and lots of evil dicators in the world, who suppress and abuse their own people. If the US made it our goal to depose all of them, we wouldn't be doing anything else . . .

    The comparision between Hitler and Sadaam is not a valid one. Hitler's goals were to eliminate from the earth all non-Aryans (for the record it was 6 million Jews, and about 6 million others of assorted 'undesirables') and to conquer the world. He was a valid threat since Hitler's army was very successful in taking over other countries and killing off people in concentration camps.

    Sadaam, on the other hand, in the 23 years he has been in power in Iraq, has not won a single war and has failed to gain power in any other country besides his own-
    Greencat

    yes that may be true but keep in mind that U.N. resolution 4242, i think thats what it was, clearly states that Iraq should have no chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons. it goes on to say that Iraq cannot have misles that can travel over 500 miles or something, it also states that saddam may not oppress his people. any one of these i believe are liable to start a war- say hitler was around now- say he had nuclear weapons and other destructive stuff, and never said that he would kill jews but would not let inspectors see if jews in his country were being killed
    thats what saddam is doing with missles- they also broke the laws of war set at the genivia convention by putting the solders on Tv and he did something else, and i forget whatn it was- saddam is not a bright one- if he did not have U.N. inspectors breathing down his back he would wait a while and invade some small country- notice what happened after sept 11- iraq was the only contry not to offer a "symphathy card" shall i say, to the US.
    he almost told us there that if he had the chance he would destroy us- i think the only thing tghat stopped him was Bush's doctrine- i believe it is not an egotistic war, but instead a war that he is intendeing to end with an independant Iraq
  18. RebelDawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 4
    Very well put, Sal. I agree with your thoughts on why we are over there in the first place. I hadn't replied again because I couldn't think of how to word it. I'm not always good with typed out words.

    I'm sure we're all glad that you made it back from the war and we should thank all soldiers for what they do for our country.

    Thank you. :)

    Tina
  19. jedi_1966 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 3
    Yes yes,I am VERY glad that Sal is back as well as all other Vets.I hold an extreme amount of esteem for ALL vets of ALL wars.If not for any of them we WOULD NOT be as we are now...(free free free)sorry,don't mean to preach.
    Being a former Civil War re-enactor for 12 yrs (not with the funky,hokey bunch),helped me to get a glimpse of what combat MIGHT be like.No,I know it was not real for me but quite a few times things would get really whacked out and it would feel very,very real.
    Now ,I know as I've said,that would put me NOWHERE close to anything that our military folks are going through,butI feel for them and am extremely proud of them.Each of them are fighting for each of us,I hope we all support 'em they need us,just as we need them.
  20. Fluke_Groundrunner Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2001
    star 4
    jaster_meerle, Wars not make one great.

    Sorry, I had to say it becasue if the quote you used.
  21. jaster_meerle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2002
    star 3
    i understand that fluke- but i dont think anything would happen for the good of the world unless saddam leaves iraq- by the way what quote are you referring to?
    but i do wish there was a way areound this that didnt include war, but saddam has no honor- he would not step down from leadership, even if every nation in the UN asked him to
  22. Fluke_Groundrunner Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2001
    star 4
    This one:

    "War is a test of character- it makes bad men worse and good men better."
  23. Jeffysan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    Volatile String goin' here. How about a smile and a warm sentiment we can all hope for. Check out this pic: YodaFlag
  24. Mrs_jedi_1966 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 3
  25. greencat336 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2001
    star 5
    Liked the Yoda pic :)

    I don't think anyone here would disagree that all Americans owe a huge debt to those brave men and women that serve in the military, particullarly in times of war. But respect for those that guard our freedom doesn't mean unquestioning obedience to our leaders (that's NOT freedom, folks, that's tyranny).

    I still think the US shouldn't have gone to war. I still haven't been presented with any new information that would make me change my mind.

    However, I'm practical enough to believe now that we have started it, the US needs to win it. Using every means possible. Limited warfare (ie Vietnam) doesn't work and its bad for foreign policy to start a war and not finish it. And before anyone makes a comment about not finishing things in Gulf War I, remember what our stated goals were then -- free Kuwait. And remeber the political climate that made it inappropriate for us to go onto Iraq at that time.

    On a related topic -- why has there been some surprise expressed in the media about the war 'taking so long'? A week is hardly a long time for a war. Did anyone really think the US was just going to walk in and Iraq was going to roll over???? Are Americans really that naive about the realities of war?
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