Saga It Is Your Destiny: What Does Star Wars Have To Say About Fate?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Nov 26, 2013.

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  1. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    But does the Force vision exist because of Anakin's choice?
  2. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    Sorry PH, I'm a bit slow on the uptake today, but can you explain this a bit further please? Do you mean the fulfillment of the prophecy? I don't understand how its existence could depend on anything Anakin did.
  3. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    That's what I was trying (and apparently failed in :p) saying. Anakin always had the ability to choose. The fact that the prophecy exists is because someone saw the choice he ended up making. In my opinion, at least.



    I'm saying that, the way I look at it, the person who had the "vision" of the prophecy -- who made it, only did so because of Anakin's choice. It was Anakin's actions that created the prophecy. And while the prophecy might have informed his actions to a degree, it isn't responsible for them. Anakin didn't choose to stop the Sith because of the prophecy; someone foresaw that Anakin would destroy the Sith because Anakin chose to. Does that clarify things a bit?
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    ^^^ Thank you. You've actually managed to articulate a way for me to wrap my brain around the prophecy, and I didn't think that was possible.
  5. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    @PiettsHat, I was thinking about something similar. Anakin did what he did, an ancient farseeing Jedi saw it, hence, 'prophecy.' Maybe the Force itself looked into the future and saw that he'd be the one to succeed. However, Anakin isn't some random galactic citizen, he has to be created by the Force for that purpose. If that were a standard course of action it might not seem strange to me, but for some reason it does. Meditate on this, I will.
  6. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    So...let me get this straight. Some random Jedi in the distant past foresaw the decision that Anakin made...many many years in the future? So, he had a vision that the darkside would imbalance the Force, that the Force would...randomly....create this being (Anakin, as it turned out) and that this being would choose to bring balance to the Force (presumably by destroying the creator of the imbalance, destroying the Sith)?

    In what way is this less convoluted guff? Let me expand upon some of the questions this raises. Does this mean that the future isn't always in motion (after all, the vision this ancient Jedi had foretold Anakin's choice...meaning that all that would occur was already in place, unchanged.)

    BUT..it gets worse. Because in this version of events, if Anakin actually does have a choice then the Force creates him simply on the off-chance that he will act to balance the Force. So, did the Force just thoughtlessly, randomly pop him out, like some negligent father; or did it consciously create him with the hope (simply that, and nothing more) that he would choose to balance the Force?

    In what way does this make sense of the prophecy/chosen one/virgin birth story-line?
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Dec 5, 2013
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  7. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    Thanks PH, I hear what you're saying now.

    I was going to respond, but can't really come up with anything better than this, directly above:

    BUT..it gets worse. Because in this version of events, if Anakin actually does have a choice then the Force creates him simply on the off-chance that he will act to balance the Force. So, did the Force just thoughtlessly, randomly pop him out, like some negligent father; or did it consciously create him with the hope (simply that, and nothing more) that he would choose to balance the Force?
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    1. I don't see how it is convoluted. It's pretty straight forward.

    2. The OT didn't quite avoid it. There were ideas there that weren't far off from this. Lucas just kept it simple then and because he was going back to a time when things were different, he could touch upon the things he couldn't before.

    It's fulfilled when Palpatine and Anakin die, just as Obi-wan said it would be.

    There's no time table for when it could happen. Anakin could have piloted the ship back to Coruscant and crash it intentionally into a building, killing himself and Palpatine in the process and fulfill his destiny. Anakin just has a moment during which he could have done what he needed to do, but instead choose not to because he couldn't live without the consequences of that choice which was Padme dies. He couldn't make that sacrifice. That's why ROTS deals with the prophecy by having Yoda say that they might have gotten it wrong.

    Ah, see here's a good question. To which the answer is that the counter balance is Luke and to a lesser degree Leia. Because Anakin and Padme had fallen in love and gotten married, they eventually conceived two children. Both strong in the Force like their father and like their father, could one day become Jedi. Now, I'm not saying that the Force caused this. No. But in its own roundabout way, the very thing that Anakin wasn't supposed to do, according to the Jedi Code, wound up having positive consequences. In this case, his children become the ones that Yoda and Obi-wan pin all their hopes upon. The Jedi and the Sith both believe that the offspring of Anakin Skywalker will destroy them and he does, but not because he takes a Lightsaber to them. But because Vader's redemption begins with the knowledge of his son's existence.

    As to the "God needs a starship", true in that the wisdom and knowledge doesn't need a vessel to travel. But as we've read in religious texts, God needed someone on Earth to carry out God's will. Be it Jesus Christ, Noah or Moses. You can believe or disbelieve in them, but there is a precedent for it. Likewise in the Greek and Roman myths, you had the gods who had champions that would do things and the gods themselves intervened only in certain respects. In this case, the Force needs a champion because the Jedi aren't able to do it on their own. They failed to take out the Sith once before and now they're no longer in a position to do so.

    Which is deemed unnatural and part of the reason Anakin came into existence in the first place. Not that particular act, but that Plagueis was messing around where he shouldn't have and thus the beginning of Anakin's existence was linked to that. The reason it is unnatural is that Plagueis was responsible for it and not the Force.

    Not a coincidence. It is an act that is fulfilled because Anakin stops being evil and starts being a good man again. Anakin doesn't kill Palpatine when he should have because he needed him to save Padme, or so he was led to believe. He didn't understand that his actions caused her death. When he is confronted by Luke, the good that is within him starts struggling back to the surface. He chooses to save Luke because he loves his son and cannot let him die. But in saving his son, he fulfills his destiny. He had known for a long time that he had to destroy the Sith. He just made a choice not to do it and then later on, a choice to do it. But his reasons for doing so and his emotional state are different in ROTS and ROTJ.

    Not quite. A Jedi saw an event happen by which Anakin would destroy the Sith, but the circumstances surrounding that moment itself was unclear and subject to change. Meaning Anakin could have done it in Palpatine's office, but doesn't. He finally does in the Death Star throne room. This Jedi saw Anakin's coming, saw the Force out of balance and saw a moment in which Anakin would bring balance to the Force. Everything else that happened was not foreseen but the result of choices made by Anakin. That's why Anakin is the Chosen One and not the Jedi Savior. It never said that the Chosen One had to be a Jedi when he did this.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Dec 5, 2013
  9. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    I think if there had just been a prophecy / vision of some kind I'd find the whole storyline easier to live with. The idea of that vision not being prescriptive is also more plausible. But the added elements of the will of the force / force created being / virgin birth seem like some fairly monumental things to include just on the off-chance that Anakin would do what the force created him for. The force itself creating a being to carry out a particular task and then that character having the option of choosing not to do that seems somewhat ridiculous to me.
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  10. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Especially since the Force seems like it can know the future. If he wasn't going to do it, it wouldn't have created him. Maybe it could see infinite possibilities, multiple universes and histories, and this was the one that worked in its favor.

    I'm not sure if I'm agreeing with you here or disagreeing. Just trying to fit things together through speculation. If the above were the case, logically it could make sense, though it still seems wholly unnecessary to the narrative (in my opinion, of course). This all assumes also that the Force couldn't or didn't want to achieve its ends in a more direct way (I know there are precedents for this kind of thing in religion - but that doesn't mean that they automatically make for fulfilling plots, and/or that they fit into every kind of story). We're also assuming here that the Force has goals to begin with.

    I think that's my own issue. The sense of scale. That same metaphor as before, the winds and weather, with the Force seeming like a force of nature in the OT, but like a super-being in the PT (to some extent).

    And though we can make sense of these things in our own discussions, it really would have seemed more appropriate, to me at least, if it was given more lip service in the films themselves. The story of Anakin and Luke could work almost exactly the same way if one edited out all the prophecy, virgin birth, etc, stuff. Anakin is super-awesome with the Force (just by chance, in this version), Qui-Gon finds him, Obi-Wan trains him, he falls, Luke becomes Jedi, leads him back to the light. If you put virgin birth, fate, prophecy, etc into a story, focus on it, make it absolutely necessary. Make it a strong theme. Otherwise it's confusing as to why it's even there.
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  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Why? Why is it ridiculous that Anakin chooses to ignore his destiny in favor of his own selfish greed? Anakin being trained for thirteen years to be a Jedi and to oppose the Sith, knowing what his was destiny was, isn't far fetched. He even whips out his Lightsaber and ignites it when Palpatine says that he is a Sith Lord. Anakin was pretty much ready to do what he was born to do, but doesn't because of the consequences for his actions if he did.

    It is a strong theme, it just isn't given a ton of exposition. It is through the actions and deeds of the characters, more than an intellectual discussion like in "Dune" or "The Matrix" films. It was that way even in the OT. You didn't need an explanation for why the tree cave was strong in the Force and created a vision for Luke. You got it because it was the actions of the characters that drove that scene. Having Yoda say, "taking those weapons to fight will lead to your doom" isn't necessary.
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  12. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    A line from AOTC throws the idea that it is just about foreseeing a choice out, I think.

    Mace Windu says to Obi-Wan;

    If your padawan is the chosen one .... then only he can bring balance to the Force"

    Only he can. That's a pretty definitive statement for a future in which choices matter.
  13. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    The character choosing the selfish course over the noble one isn't ridiculous, but that's not what I suggest in the quote above. What seems ridiculous to me is that the force itself would be so proactive as to choose and create an individual for the express purpose of bringing it into balance and then that it would be possible for that being to choose not to. That the force would be so willful in that way, and then that Anakin could so easily choose to act at odds with that will, seems contradictory.

    Personally, after hearing all the many and varied (and very interesting) takes on this in this thread, I think that either of the following scenarios would have been better.

    1. The will of the force is absolute and Anakin was always destined to destroy the Sith and balance the force. It was just a matter of how and when, and the story we see is the how and the when.

    2. The prophecy was nothing more than that. Just a vision of what may or may not occur, depending on paths chosen. No will of the force, no virgin birth, no Chosen One. That being the case, the future remains always in motion as it always was and the outcome is based on the choices of individuals.

    What we have now seems to me to be an awkward combination of the two which doesn't quite work.
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    The idea that creation by the Force somehow removes free will seems ridiculous to me. Whether created by the Sith or by the Force itself, the result is the same: an organism with a lot of midichlorians. Yoda has a lot of midichlorians as well. Is he also lacking in free will?

    If Anakin is the only one who can restore balance to the Force, it would seem that Anakin's choices matter.

    If Anakin only does this in the end as a result of Luke's choices, it would seem that Luke's choices matter.

    Et cetera...

    But my question was, why doesn't the Force do this to Palpatine?

    But if these things weren't already in the story, then by definition they weren't "absolutely necessary". On the other hand, fate, or "destiny", was already a strong theme in the OT.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 6, 2013
  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I really wish one of the Star Wars characters had responded to "It is your destiny" with "nah, I can actually do whatever the hell I want."
  16. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Quite so. If I were telling the story, they probably wouldn't have been in there, at least in the same ways. (Of course, they aren't my stories to tell.) But if they were going to be included, then... well take this as an example. Anakin being a prophecied hero seems like the kind of thing that would make him want to live up to the legend. He'd strive for a certain level of achievement because he knows about the prophecy and how he was specially created, he'd be afraid to fail the prophecy (or maybe be overly cocky because he 'knows' he can't fail, or maybe he'd just be confused at how the prophecy is supposed to match up with his own actions), he'd probably run into problems with people who had other interpretations of who the Chosen One is (maybe they'd even think it was them), etc.There is a little bit of this in the films, but I'm not even sure if he mentions the prophecy or the Chosen One. He mentions being a Jedi, and that he as a Jedi is supposed to be "better than this"... but that's not the same thing. Compare to the New Testament; Jesus, a similarly specially created character, mentions and thinks about his role, and indeed his character arc/plot has those metaphysical aspects in a central place.

    These things, by their nature, are such defining aspects of a character's existence (once you introduce them) that they start to take over and clutter the thematic space. Is Anakin a hero whose impatience and fear makes him go down the dark path? Or is he a demigod who is destined to save the galaxy for all time? You can have both, but if you have too many themes going at once, it may not work as well as a streamlined story. If you put them in and don't really delve into them, it's like if I was telling the story of a WWII serviceman, and at the end I am about to tell the story of how he also fought in WWI and am like "oh yeah, he's also Santa Claus" and then tell the WWI story with his character operating pretty much the same as if he wasn't Santa. A few supporting characters once or twice would muse on how it's too bad Santa can't deliver his presents from the trenches this Christmas. It could be logically consistent, but it doesn't explain anything that I already knew from the first part of the story, and it doesn't introduce enough new stuff to his character arc in the second part.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Dec 6, 2013
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Right and Anakin makes two choices. The first choice is the one where he will not kill Palpatine because it could mean the death of Padme and his failure to fulfill a promise made three years ago. Then he makes a second choice in which he will kill Palpatine to save his son, who himself is being killed by Palpatine. Thus Anakin makes a choice to run from his destiny and then a choice to embrace his destiny, thereby saving his son and making right what he put wrong all those years ago.

    The Force cannot control how Anakin lives his life, no more than it can anyone else. All it can do is create that which is necessary to achieve an end result. It still falls to Anakin to do what he does.

    Because it cannot.

    YODA: "Life creates it, makes it grow."

    All it can do is create someone who can do it.

    Ah, now we come to the root of the discussion. Especially given the likes you received from two others here. The thing is that Anakin does have a cockiness, but not because of his destiny. But because of his powers which puts him in a place of arrogance. He does believe that he can save the ones that matter to him the most and fix all problems.

    ANAKIN: "The shifter broke. Life seems so much simpler when you're fixing things. I'm good at fixing things...always was."

    But then Anakin learns a harsh lesson when his mother dies and that changes everything. From that moment on, he dedicates himself a goal that is impossible to achieve.

    PADME: "Sometimes there are things no one can fix. You're not all-powerful, Ani."

    ANAKIN: "I should be! Someday I will be the most powerful Jedi ever! I promise you, I will even learn to stop people from dying."

    His statement about being better concerns with having his revenge on the Tusken Raiders for what happened to Shmi and for what he has said afterwards. For saying that he is glad that they're dead and that he hates all of them. A Jedi doesn't know hate. His actions from then on is based on his own failures. His downfall is his attachments which is the story lies.
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  18. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    However, the Force can know the future (don't you think?), and so knew what Anakin would do. And because the force is, well, the Force, it may have perfect foresight (as opposed to the Emperor, who could see some things but was mistaken about others).

    So... it seems like either the Force created Anakin knowing what he would do (because it's independent of time), or the Force didn't know how Anakin would turn out, but he just happened to do what the Force wanted him to (which seems like some real luck on the part of the Force, creating someone at random and having it work out - which is why I jokingly speculated on the possibility of thousands of potential Chosen littering space).

    Life creates it. This quote isn't necessarily relevant.

    I get Anakin's arc there, and I think it's a good story. However, which part of that is relevant to the virgin birth, prophecy, Chosen One aspects? That story could be told without any of the additional supernaturality.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Dec 6, 2013
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    It's more the latter as it fits in with the line, "Always in motion is the future." Like I said, it knew of an outcome. It just didn't know how it would get there.

    It is because the Force is described in both TESB and in TPM as being a large part of nature. That life cannot exist without Midichlorians and without the Force.


    The relevancy is that Anakin's creation to be the Chosen One resulted in his having a unique birth, one from the Midichlorians. When Obi-wan looks at Anakin's blood sample, he knows that the boy has more than anyone on record. Even Yoda pales in comparison. And as he says later on, Anakin's abilities have produced that state of arrogance in him. Because he thinks he is all powerful and continues to need more in order to accomplish what he wants. His power levels are part of his downfall, especially when he comes to the harsh realization that he isn't as powerful as he thought he was. Lucas points out that his power results in his downfall. The prophecy is the end result of choices, as I said, but there is more to it than just that.
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  20. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    I agree with you. I think that Anakin had too many things going on with him and as a result they were all rushed and didn't work as well. Anakin's rise and eventual fall, betrayal of the Jedi order and fight with his best friend Obi-Wan is an epic enough story on it's own. Anakin is a moving force in the story, he doesn't need this extra prophecy bit.
    To me, it also telegraphs his eventual return to the light and that he will in the end, destroy the Sith.
    So if you watch these film 1 to 6, the prophecy spoils his return to grace and him killing Palpatine.

    About what the Force could have done about Palpatine.
    First, why not tell the midis in Palpatine's cell to slow or stop their re-production?
    Once his cells die, his midi count will begin to go down and he will eventually loose most of his power.
    Failing that, if the Force can see the future will total accuracy, then it will know when and where Palpatine will arise and do his bad things. So it can then just influence the midis in his fathers or mothers bodies and prevent him from being born.

    Once you have a supernatural force taking direct action, and creating Anakin for the sole purpose to destroy the Sith is a direct action. Then you open the door for all sorts of questions. If it can do this, why doesn't it do any number of other things?

    If the Force saw Anakin destroy Palpatine and thus it created Anakin to do just that. Then Anakin exists because the Force looked into the future and saw what he did and created him. If the Force hadn't looked into the future, then it wouldn't have seen Anakin and thus he would never have existed. So him existing is a bit of a temporal paradox. So to the Force, it was never any question about choice, it saw Anakin destroy the sith and all it had to do was to make sure he existed. So Anakin WILL destroy the sith, that future is absolute. And it makes Anakin a bit like a Force Terminator. He exists to do one thing and one thing alone, kill the sith. It seems he has no other purpose than that.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  21. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    The prophecy and Anakin's supernatural creation are two related, but very different matters though, aren't they?

    A prophecy is just a vision of what may happen if certain actions are taken. I have no problem with that being subject to freedom of choice and the idea that it may not come to pass.

    But portraying the force as an intervening, proactive power which can and will go to the lengths of creating a being for an express purpose is another matter altogether. That's a serious case of the force as puppet master and micromanager supreme! For the force to do this and then allow that being to essentially do as he pleased with his life still makes little sense to me I'm afraid.

    Edit:

    Once you have a supernatural force taking direct action, and creating Anakin for the sole purpose to destroy the Sith is a direct action. Then you open the door for all sorts of questions. If it can do this, why doesn't it do any number of other things?

    =D=
    Last edited by MOC Yak Face, Dec 6, 2013
  22. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Is the future always in motion from the Force's point of view? If so, how does this relate to commonplace determinism? The future is birthed from everything that is going on in the present - meaning that if you had a good enough simulation, or you had absolute knowledge, you could know the future. Of course mere mortals can only do some predicting. Our knowledge is incomplete. But conveniently, the Force is supernatural. How limited is its knowledge, especially considering that it is used by mortals to view the future (and in some case, they get apparently accurate information from this)?

    What I was pointing out is that that quote talks about life creating the Force, not the other way around. I could just as easily quote Luke and Yoda...

    ... and point out that technically death is under the Force's purview as well.

    Point being, our 'knowledge' of what the Force can and can't do for itself is entirely made of assumptions based on quotes that were originally talking about something else.

    I still think the same story could have been told with him simply being a very powerful Force-user. We don't really see him doing anything that other characters absolutely couldn't, and those motivations (fear of loss, self-confidence problems because of weakness, etc) could apply to anyone who uses the Force.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Well, what happens in the present is what shapes the future being in motion. Anakin sees Padme die and it is the result of the choices Anakin has made up to this point and as we see in ROTS, the future does come to pass but there are changes along the way. We see Obi-wan with his robe on in the vision and off on the ship. If Anakin had changed his ways before Palpatine had revealed himself, then what happened in the rest of the films wouldn't have happened. But because he did what he did, a new path presented itself. One where Anakin becomes evil and his son becomes a focal point. "Your focus determines your reality."

    But they still apply regardless of the PT. The Force created life and in this case, one life in particular. Death comes naturally which was Yoda's point. The Force created the means to eliminate the problem since it could not do it any other way but that. If it could, it would have.


    They do apply to any Jedi which is why Lucas eliminated Maul and introduced Dooku. But in the case of Anakin, it takes on a whole new meaning as he was more important than Dooku. He shouldn't have fallen, but he did. He should have eliminated the Sith, but he doesn't and instead becomes one. It adds to Obi-wan's sense of failure and leaves everything in doubt going into ANH.

    "As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance. It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful—it doesn't have the burden of worrying about other people. What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to come by."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.


    Dooku himself was once considered a powerful Jedi before his turn and afterwards, he brags about his power. Anakin brags about his power before he becomes a Knight and later when he becomes a Sith, he talks about his great power.

    Because Anakin is a sentient being and all such beings have the ability to decide which actions to take. The Force is not quite God, but a divine power in a sense. Lucas originally called it, "The Force of all Others". It was something that was very supernatural and mythical at the same time.

    "I tried, in my going through mythology, to distill down into certain basic ideas things that seem to exist in a great deal of mythology. Again, to try to find the themes and ideas that continue over a great amount of time and across a wide spectrum of cultures. The Force is a result of that. The Force is the way that many people view the great mysteries of “Is there other realities at work other than the one we can perceive.” I think that the Force represents life—I mean another way to describe it is “life-force.” It’s the spirit of life rather than the physical manifestation of it."

    --George Lucas, Laserdisc Commentary, Star Wars Trilogy Definitive Collection, 1993
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  24. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    But what if one stands outside of time? From the vantage point of a small mortal mind, the future seems in motion, but if you could see all at once, there should be no surprises. For example: Say Anakin foresees Obi-Wan's death at the hands of some battle droids. But at the last second, a meteor strikes and blows up the droids. That would seem to be a case of the future being in motion. Something changed. Except that it didn't - that meteor was on its way around its orbit even as Anakin had his vision. Everything is like this, even creatures with wills (the wills come from somewhere - as discussed previously).*

    What would we say about Anakin's incorrect vision there? (Or about any of the incorrect visions in the series - Anakin's version of Padme's death, the Emperor and Vader foreseeing various things about Luke, etc.) Is it that they were seeing snatches of accurate information, kind of vague and dreamlike, which their minds interpreted in inaccurate ways? OR is the Force itself, the mechanism through which they were looking, incomplete in its ability to perceive/resolve the universe and its events? Is the Force "strong, but not that strong"?

    *This is ignoring quantum randomness, which introduces an unknowability about the future. But I'm unsure (a) if this is relevant and (b) if this concept is meant to be this complicated, in Star Wars. Is even the Force unable to predict how the waveform will collapse?

    The last sentence is an assumption which boils down to "God works in mysterious ways." It is one way to explain the narrative, but when telling a story, I feel like "because, period" is probably not the most fulfilling of character motivations. And the Force has now become a character.

    This relates to why Anakin should be powerful in the story, and possibly to the concept of 'living up to the prophecy' (wherein he and other characters assume he can't fail), but not to why he needs to essentially be Space Jesus.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Dec 6, 2013
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  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    We don't know about perception of time from an outside point of view. We don't know if the Force can see in that regard. I'm aware of the concept, but it is difficult to say for certain about that. It is possible in that regard, that different outcomes leading to a conclusion happen. But often, those conclusions are set in stone in some form. The path and choice still belongs to the individual.

    In the case of Anakin's vision, circumstances kept changing as events progressed. It might be the latter in that portions are incomplete, because of choice.

    Not so much of a character as an omnipresence.


    He's not space Jesus. He's an archtype of the mythological hero.

    "It was a virgin birth in an ecosystem of symbiotic relationships. It means that between the Force, which is sort of a life force, and reality, the connectors between these two things are what we call Midichlorians. They're kind of based on mitochondria, which are a completely different animal, that live inside every single cell and allow it to live, allow it to reproduce, allow life to exist. They also, in their own way, communicate with the Force itself. The more you have, the more your cells are able to speak intuitively to the Force itself and use the powers of the Force. Ultimately, I would say the Force itself created Anakin. I don't want to get into specific terms of labeling things to make it one religion or another, but basically that's one of the foundations of the hero's journey."

    --George Lucas, Feburary 2005 issue of Vanity Fair, page 117.

    Jesus just has a good publicist. You wouldn't call Beowulf, "Mythological Jesus" and King Arthur, "Medieval Jesus". Anakin's unique birth is a standard in mythological stories of which "Star Wars" is but one example.

    No, it doesn't. First off, as I pointed out ROTS raises the question about whether the Jedi were right or wrong about Anakin. Thus making it seem as if Luke might have been it. Second, it doesn't really say that he would become good again. Just that he was going to destroy the Sith and given how Dooku was betrayed by Palpatine and how Vader wants to turn Luke and use him to destroy Palpatine, that doesn't mean that he would become good.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Dec 7, 2013
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