Saga It Is Your Destiny: What Does Star Wars Have To Say About Fate?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Nov 26, 2013.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I'm not saying that other events didn't have a factor, but it is a particular event that drives the action. That is what I'm saying.

    The whole point of the mortals being responsible is that it goes back to the symbiont circle from TPM. As Obi-wan said, what affects one affects the other. The Naboo and the Gungans were both the dominant species on Naboo and both were affected by the Federation's invasion. The Jedi and the Republic were both affected by the Sith's revenge and in turn, the Force was affected by the war and the extermination of the Jedi. It goes back to the earliest writings of ANH, where Lucas wrote that the Ashla of the Force weakened as the Jedi Bendu was destroyed, leaving only the Bogan which was the dark side. The Force itself is and always has been two sides that were in contrast to each other and in the films, that contrast is damaged and needs to be repaired.

    The human aspect of the story remains because it is about Luke and Anakin and their issues coming to light.

    True, but the closest was in the rough draft and the revised rough draft of ROTJ, where Palpatine has been lead to believe that the threat was Luke only to find out it was Anakin who was the threat.

    EMPEROR
    Obi-Wan foresaw my destruction at your hands, young Skywalker, but it seems his vision was clouded…Perhaps there is still another Skywalker. Why can I not see, could the netherworld have influenced my perception? Another Skywalker…your father!

    Even though it wasn't a prophecy in the strictest sense, he was moving in that direction without locking it down until the PT.

    That's why I've pointed out what ROTS says on the subject with Yoda and Mace's doubts.

    Indeed. It may not seem like Lucas thought it through clearly, but he did. He's just not the best communicator of stringing it together like someone more traditional in directorial capabilities.
  2. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    I don't known if it count but, in ROTS we do see the Padme's prophetic death occur just as it does in Anakin's dream, but it was not caused by what he thought it would be. Similar to the prophecy of the Chosen One, the Jedi seem to think that he will defeat the Sith in a simple combat, when in reality it took decades of internal struggle that included him destroying the Jedi before he destroyed the Sith.
  3. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    Okay, I think I may have just come up with something:

    We ( @only one kenobi and @MOC Yak Face , among others) were at one point discussing how the addition of a Will of the Force that created Anakin seems to make a big difference to some of us regarding the 'feel' of the story and the agency of the characters. But something just occurred to me: Qui-Gon says Anakin might have been conceived by the midichlorians. I don't think he says that Anakin may have been conceived by the Force itself. This might make a difference. Like so:

    -The Sith, or something they do, starts to tilt the balance of the Force such that the dark side becomes stronger. (What this means, I'm not sure - the people using it have more stamina/better powers? The specifics don't really matter in this paragraph, though.)

    -The midichlorians are the agency that create Anakin, as a response to the imbalance of the Force.

    -I guess he would be one possibility of someone who could then bring balance to the Force. Maybe the midichlorians are trying all kinds of things.

    -Anakin falls to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan refers to a prophecy that apparently has failed.

    -Anakin brings balance to the Force through getting rid of Palpatine. Someone long ago apparently used the Force to see this turn of events and write about them, referring to Anakin as The Chosen One; this is the prophecy the characters refer to. Anakin's choices are still driven by his own will. He's called the Chosen One not because the Force created him but because he is the one who destroys Palpatine. The Force itself doesn't have an agency or do anything or create anyone; saying 'it was the will of the Force' is like saying 'it was luck' or the like. "It was the way things were supposed to turn out, for that to happen."

    Thoughts? Does that change anything at all? I'm not sure...

    I guess Anakin would still either be (a) sheer incredible luck for him to be the right one to rebalance things, with the midis/the Force getting the chain of events right the very first time they tried to fix it, yet not having knowledge/control of what was truly inevitable, (b) one of many experiments, with many parentless Force-sensitives showing up across the galaxy around that same time (the other option, for a Force or midis that don't absolutely know the future), or (c) a loop, with him being created because he was the one to later fix things, which was seen in the past and led to his creation in the first place (in this case the creator agent does know the true future).
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Mar 4, 2014
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  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
  5. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    They're coarse and rough and irritating and they get everywhere?
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  6. Katarn's Beard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2014
    From what I can see, the "big moments" like rebalancing the Force, are destiny. How you get there depends on your choices though.
  7. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    I see your thinking but a) it still appears to point toward some sort of conscience agency - whether that be midiclorians or the Foce and b) from what Qui-Gon says to Anakin, if you 'listen' to the midiclorians then they can 'tell' you the will of the Force - so that agency would be the Force. There is no getting around the basic premise that the prophecy storyline, as envisaged here - repleat with Campbellian tropes (virgin birth, as with Mithras the bull-slayer, Dionysus, Horus etc) - relies upon an element of agency from 'on high'.

    Now, some people 'dig' that kind of thing, some don't. I'm interested in it the extent that I find it interesting in understanding the beliefs and world-view of those 'actors' of the past. Been there, done that - if I want those tales I can read Homer, Sophocles, Euripedes or Virgil.

    The OT created a new kind of mythos, the PT reverts to an older form.
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