It was the Emperor, who had lack of vision!

From watching the PT films as they unfold. It is clear now, that the Jedi as well as the Emperor made one fatal mistake. In their times of prominance, both sides failed to sense the other's presence via the force.

In the PT era, it was the Jedi who failed to detect the phantom menance that was Sidious who all along was operating right under their noses.

In the OT, it was the Emperor who failed to sense both Yoda and Obi-wan's presence. I believe as powerful as the Emperor should have been, he should have felt both of them during the time period between the events of Ep. III and ANH.

It's apparent that both sides grew too overconfident and paid total disreguard to any potential threat. However once the "small guys" made their existence known to the other, the turn of events were already well into motion. Only after the destruction of the first Death Star was the Sith made aware of Luke and Obi-wan's existence. Likewise for the Jedi in the PT. (Different method of attack of course)

I just thought this analysis was very ironic. Considering what worked for Palpatine during the PT he failed to realize this himself in the OT era.

It was not Luke, but the Emperor who had lack of vision!!!!

 

This is an excellent point. It also suggests a parallel between the two titles "The Phantom Menace" and "A New Hope" - both referring to the fact that the established order (Jedi/Republic in the PT, Empire in the OT) is about to be upset by a new person or power, which is unrecognized by the "powers that be" until it's too late.

 

Interesting. By the same token Attack of the Clones and The Empire Strikes Back both suggest the established order counter attacking the threat.

Perhaps the EIII title establishes the victory of the threat over the established order.

 

Nice analysis.

 

Great Post!
I have noticed the title thing also.

Therefore Episode III must be about the Sith taking over such as "Revenge of the Sith"

If you notice ANH has three words just like TPM

TESB has four words just like AOTC has four also.

ROTJ has four and therefore III must have 4 like Revenge of the Sith or something.


Anyway you would think Palpatine would know when he has done it himself.

 

I don't really buy into the idea that the number of words, or syllables, in title has any relevance, nor the grammatical construction.

I do agree, though,that the parallels in the broad PT and OT storylines are echoed in the ideas conveyed by the titles.

"Attack" does echo "Strikes Back" a little, both phonetically and in the meanings, but if the threat in the PT is Sidious, then how is the "Attack of the Clones" an attack against Sidious?

 

Good point.

 

"Attack" does echo "Strikes Back" a little, both phonetically and in the meanings, but if the threat in the PT is Sidious, then how is the "Attack of the Clones" an attack against Sidious?

Well, if you look at Palpatine and Sidious as two different people (Despite the fact that they're obviously not), Sidious, although aloof, controls the Separatists which the Clones of the Republic are, in turn, attacking.

 

I feel some of you might have misinterpreted what this topic is about. It isn't about title refrences towards the themes of the films, its a comparison between the Sith and the Jedi for not realizing each other's existence in their times of prominance.

But feel free to keep adding to this discussion

 

I suppose it could be said that it's hard to see the other side of the force when there are only 2 proponents of the other side ( as in why Palps couldn't sense that Yoda and Ben were still out there between Ep. III and IV) like the jedi couldn't see the Sith in the PT since there were always just two of them. But there's no real factual evidence supporting this other than the fact that it worked for the Sith in the PT, but I don't believe it has anything to do with any perculiarities of the number two or the force. I think Palps didn't know about Yoda and Ben betwee Eps. III and IV and the Jedi didn't know about Sidious and Maul before Ep I because they were keeping a low profile.


As for Palpy's lack of vision I concur...what he didn't expect Vader to turn on him when he was killing Anakin's and Padme's lovechild.

 

To me it just seems that if any one is knowledgable with the force, that they would be aware of others who are using it as well.

Kinda like two different species of animals drinking water from the same pond or lake. Both are tapping their energy through the same resource.

Or maybe the amount of distance between the two sides has something to do with it. In ROTJ when Luke is with the away team on their mission to Endor, he sensed Vader as he did Luke. But it wasn't until they were in close proximity that they knew.

However in the PT, Sidious is interacting with Yoda and the rest of the Jedi Council, yet they don't pick up on his presence as a Sith? So what is the deal?!!

Is it bloodties that makes someone's senses stronger or is it just higher concentration?
I guess we will never know.

 

I also think this is something that will never be revealed, but I like thinking about it anyway.

Palpatine could stand 5 feet away from the strongest Jedi in the galaxy, and they couldn't sense him. Which is why some people have suggested that Palpatine is a non-Force-sensitive clone, b/c it at least accounts for the Jedi not being able to sense him.

Qui-Gon could sense Anakin's presence on Tatooine.
Obi-Wan sensed "the Phantom Menace" at the start of TPM.
Yoda could sense the DS in Dooku.
Vader and Ben sensed each other immediately on the Death Star.

Does the other have to be USING the Force before their presence is noted?

Speaking of the Emperor again, not only did he fail to sense Yoda and Obi-Wan, but he didn't sense Luke coming to Endor!

Is this a continuity error? When Luke is the Throne Room, Palps tells him that it's all going to his plan, that he knew the Rebel Fleet would be lured here, etc.

But earlier, when Vader says "my son is on that ship", Palps asks "are you sure?"

"I have felt him, my Master."

"Strange that I have not."

So is this an error (I doubt it), or the Will of the Force hiding Luke's destiny from Palpatine?

 

Excellent points GM!

 

he didn't sense Luke coming to Endor!
I took from the tone of Palpatine questioning Vader about HOW exactly he was able to sense "young Skywalker" from such a distance as more of a test then a general lack of awareness. He was testing Vader's loyalties, did Vader plot to replace him with turning Skywalker to the dark side...or was he still a loyal servant. In a way, Palpatine was asking Why...are you LOOKING for Skywalker more closely then I?

It's apparent that both sides grew too overconfident and paid total disreguard to any potential threat
I think one of the things Yoda was elluding towards in AOTC when he said, "too sure of themselves...even the older, more experienced ones," was that many in the jedi order felt there was nothing they couldn't do. It wasn't until the CLONE WARS that they realized just how limited even a jedi could be. The book "Shatterpoint" reallys goes into this idea of a jedi "reality check" and I would suggest reading it.

As for Palpy's "overconfidence" onboard DSII, after conquering the known galaxy and reducing the jedi to (almost) extinction...this one last measure of turning Luke into his apprentice would make his plans for galactic domination complete. What messed things up was that he never expected Anakin to reject his Sith training...for the sake of a son, he never knew. Regardless of the outcome of the Luke/Vader duel...Palpatine felt he had control of the situation, and merely waited to see who the winner would be.

 

Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader become lax simply because the entire Jedi Order is destroyed during episode 3,after Anakin Skywalker becomes Lord Vader all of the Jedi Knights are belived to be dead and the only Force Users left in the Galaxy are either untrained aliens and humans who pose no threat because they have no formal training,and force users that are either former Jedi or that are simple beings that have been recruited or conscripted into Imperial service.

It makes sense for the emperor to have a lack of vision,because the Jedi are extinct,regular people that are force sensitive have no training,and he has many that are working for him that pose no threat because they are either too loyal or have too little training to overthrow him.

 

"Revenge of The Sith" I believe is a highly feasable title for Episode III. This is because ROTJ was originally entitled with revenge, but the first word was switched to return.

Lucas swapped the words because revenge is a negative action and isn't a proper course of response for a Jedi to take.

Probably once all six films are said and done the titles themselves will tell one-short-cohesive story about the actually happenings of the films themselves.

As for the parallel of both the Jedi and Palpatine: very astute; great observation!

Apparently after his eradication of the Jedi Order Palpatine grew lazy and less proactive in hunting down the Jedi which allowed a selective few to fall between the cracks.

Complacency was his mortal flaw. And idealism was the Jedi's.

<[-]> Saber

 

Really, Palpatine is able to overcome all problems in his way. Everything moves according to his vision, and by the time we catch up with him in ROTJ he's been ruling the galaxy for about 23 years.

But Luke's decision not to turn is a big roadblock right in his path, something he simply cannot work around. A large amount of time, planning and effort has gone into trying to turn Luke as he turned Anakin before, and the boy's refusal to join the Dark Side is pretty much the first time Palpatine's plans suffer a serious setback.

That would be bad enough...but that setback is compounded by Anakin resurfacing from the Vader persona and killing Palpatine, which is about the biggest setback you can get

Luke was right...not just about Vader, but Palpatine as well...

"Your overconfidence is your weakness."

 

In Empire Strikes Back, Vader tells Luke that the Emperor has seen that Luke will destroy him (the Emperor). Did Sidious know this before Luke came onto the scene?

 

I think it can be one of two thinks...either a lie by Vader, just using it as a little incentive for Luke to join him...or (my opinion) it's the truth, and Palpatine is fully aware that Anakin's child may well have the same potential power and could therefore be a threat.

 

or (my opinion) it's the truth, and Palpatine is fully aware that Anakin's child may well have the same potential power and could therefore be a threat.

I just saw Jedi again and that's what I think also. Obi-wan says something similar to Luke on Dagobah after Yoda fades away.

 

The Emperor couldn't detect Yoda, because the dark tree masked his presence.

 

The Dark Side tree is EU. When using an EU reference in any of the Movie forums please state it as such.

Thanks.

 

TOTAL...BOLLOCKS!!! The Dark Side tree was featured in ESB! *snort* EU indeed! It was the tree that Luke entered to face the vision of Vader. Yoda even said that it was strong with the Dark Side of the Force!

 

The tree is indeed in ESB, but the statement that it "blocked Yoda's presence" is not.

 

But when you think about it logically, and disregarding EU totally (I don't like the EU much myself), then the tree, being so strong with the Dark Side, would mask any detection of the Light Side, that being Yoda. It would, in a sense, act as a natural jammer against any Dark Side adepts. I figure that, if it were not for Yoda living so close to such a large generator of the Dark Side, then the Emperor would have sensed him years before and would have killed him.