Discussion in 'Community' started by dp4m, Jun 17, 2013.
Yeah stick a crab on his face, people will confuse it for a good film!
That's a lot to assume, considering that it's never made known in the film as to why he went out to the garage at all, and the fact that he was caught unawares. If you're hunting someone, you don't generally expect them to "wait" after they've caught you off guard, which was exactly what Connor told Fasil to do. In all likelyhood, it was Fasil doing the hunting that night. Anything else is needlessly complicated, for no reason (redundancy, I know)
The studio may or may not have gotten the movie. Considering that there are plenty of scenes that actually made it into the film, and that plenty of people understand the concepts completely, I'm not ready to agree with the above statement.
Any scene that would confirm that Connor won the prize, or that any of them could win the prize right after killing the other two or three, would completely change the context of the film so far as the series is concerned. You can't have the series if one of the characters in the movie wins the prize, and that is what the scenes with Kastagir and Connor discussing fighting each other is all about.
We'll really never know. All we really know about what could have been, is that most Highlander movies weren't known for doing to well at the box office. It was marketed to a fanbase that had been steadily leaving them since before the series ended. The rest of the movie going audience could care less if Connor died, so if the movie did bad, it's really hard to blame that. There are plenty of beloved characters that die in movies. Obi Wan Kenobi, for instance. His death hardly hurt Star Wars.
This thread makes me glad I never got beyond Highlander 2.
Back in the day I understood it was going to be Axl Rose of all people was going to be playing that part, but that he pulled out leaving them to get van Peebles at the last minute...
Highlander 3 was better than two, in that it was a re-telling of Highlander I with a fraction of the quality. And Mario van Peebles.
Wait. Not sure that's better...
That sounds terribad.
Highlander 2: The scene with Ramirez having his new suit fitted was good, but nearly everything else was so very, very bad, surprisingly so considering that the cast was largely good. And it was not cheap-bad, which happens easily when there is little money or talent, but actively bad, like they paid decent money to talented people and asked them to deliberately destroy the good things about the original.
Highlander 3 was not so much bad as consistently not good and unnecessary; unlike 2 it was simply derivative and incredibly mediocre throughout.
Highlander 4 was worse than most episodes of the TV series.
I could not bring myself to watch Highlander 5.
Be glad. Be very glad. It was a monstrosity. I never thought they could get worse than Highlander II. But they proved me wrong.
A friend of mine told me about a scene from II. Sounded like a hilariously terrible David Lynch movie.
Yes, that sounds about right. Highlander II was really bad.
But there's a scene from The Source, when the villain belts out a few lines from the song Who Wants To live Forever in a terrible Vin Diesel-esque voice.
And then there's the immortal in it who is bigger than Jabba the Hutt, and so on.
It would have happened, but USA Network wanted to change the formula to appeal to a different audience.
He played Kane, the main Immortal villain.
Based on what is known about the remake script, the story is going back to the original version of the Kurgan known as the Knight. The Knight was not like the Kurgan. He was more eloquent speaking, dressing in suits and more along the lines of Kalas and Xavier St. Cloud. He was still a formidable opponent, but he wasn't exactly like Brown.
One thing. Connor put on his gloves. He always does when he goes to fight an Immortal in the present day. He wasn't caught unawares and we don't know what, "Wait" means. That's been a topic over the years. "Wait" could have meant any number of things. Also, Fasil didn't have his sword out until after Connor said that. It was still hidden by his coat.
The problem with knowing for certain is that Panzer, Davis and Mulchay hasn't gone into detail about why scenes were cut. And the ones destroyed in the fire, including the bar scene and afterwards, make it even more difficult since they could have been inserted into the 10th Anniversary Director's Cut.
If you take it at face value.
Box office results aside, in basic terms, it did work. It is not a perfect film, by any means. But it actual gets into the characters and goes into what makes Immortality a pain. That was the main thing that made the series work and goes back to what Widen had intended.
I don't know about being in the film, but Guns N' Roses was going to contribute to the soundtrack. Director Andy Morahan had directed some of their videos from the "Use Your Illusion" albums and they had an agreement. Then the whole thing over "Sympathy For The Devil" happened and that was it.
Sadly, a lot of that was ad-libbed and the director, who never really watched anything "Highlander" related, was responsible.
The way it was in the final film was definitely cheap. Had it been handled like it was in Peter Briggs drafts, it wouldn't have been so bad. There was more than one Elder in that version and they were all in various stages of rotting away, but were still alive.
But we know what "wait" doesn't mean. It's doesn't mean "attack me right away." Seriously, what could it possibly mean here, other than "Don't start yet"? The situation isn't that complicated. There isn't a hidden meaning. After Connor evades Fasil's first attack, he pulls his own sword, and then the next words out of his mouth are, "Alright" as if to say, "now I'm ready." Connor didn't put his gloves on until he was in the parking lot, which was when he became wary of danger. Were he hunting someone, he would have been ready long before coming into danger, narrowing the chances that his prey will sneak up from behind and get the drop on him. The clear difference between the two characters, and their situations at the time, is that Fasil was ready to fight, and Connor wasn't.
In most interviews where the creators talk about deleted footage, they rarely ever give every reason as to why a scene is cut. They maybe give one reason that they know the audience will accept, and then move on so as not to waste time trying to think back to their exact thought process of when they decided to cut a certain scene. What we all know, is that a room full of studio execs are not all going to be stupid. Someone in a high position is going to be able to understand what is going on in the movie. After all, it's a pretty straight forward movie, and all the special rules are clearly explained.
The issue here, is that the more scenes you have in the film confirming that Connor won the prize, the least likely you're going to be able to use the film as part of the back story in the series. Take, for instance, TPM. Had they shown the two halves of Darth Maul's body being burned on a funeral Pyre, you would have to take it at face value that he was dead. You'd have no Choice. No one would be able to bring him back for SWTCW. Because a scene like that doesn't exist, you don't have to take it at face value that Maul died in TPM.
Oh, the movie made sense. But I could make a movie that makes sense. That doesn't mean anyone should pay to see it. That movie wasn't of the quality to be released in theaters, and the public pretty much let them know that.
The way I interpreted the whole "wait" thing was that Macleod actually just wanted to talk a while. If you view the movie as a single ,self-contained story, leaving aside the subsequent movies and TV series, then by the point the story opens there are only five Immortals left in the entire world: Connor, Kurgan, Kastagir, Fasil, and probably the decapitation case Moran mentions over in Jersey a few nights earlier when discussing Fasil's death. The impression we're left with is that the Gathering is a very recent thing for all of them - the "irresistible pull towards a faraway land" has brought them all to America for it. Ramirez says explicitly the Gathering will only happen "when only a few of us are left." I got the impression, then, that it had been decades, if not centuries, since any immortal had run into another one. Kastagir and Connor actually joke that it has literally been a hundred years since they saw one another. Finding six people among six billion isn't terribly easy, even with the benefit of spider-sense the Quickening and even if the Kurgan was constantly looking for them, which may or may not have been the case; the movie's silent on that.
So the story I got out of it is that Connor senses another Immortal at the wrestling fight - something he hasn't felt for a long, long time because the Immortals are so rare - and gets out of Madison Square Garden to leave, because he doesn't really want a fight. He gets down to the garage, where the sensations get stronger, which puts him on guard; and Fasil turns up. Macleod turns, finally putting a face to the sensation. The fact they know one another without any more backstory suggests they at least were on speaking terms at one point, but haven't had much to do with one another for a while. Connor has a desire to connect with someone else who knows what he's going through, thus, he says "Wait", as in, "Wait a minute -- it's been so long, don't you at least want to catch up or talk about old times?" Fasil does not wait and strikes first. So Connor avoids his first strike, pulls his weapon, and says, "All right", which I understood to mean "All right, if that's the way you want it."
Your interpretation is quite likely very close to the way things were meant to be. I don't think the movies portrayed Connor as the type of character that just approached immortals with the intent to kill them, even during the time of the gathering. In fact, his role in all the other movies was much the same. Connor was always the one being hunted, and never the hunter. The tv series portrayed him in a different light, as a character that sought out evil immortals to extinguish them.
I don't think Fasil was an evil man, either, and winning the prize was so important to the future of the entire world, I think Connor probably did want to talk to Fasil about holding off their battle until someone could take care of the Kurgan. I think Fasil just wanted to be strong enough to beat the Kurgan, and to gain the strength he needed, then he would be forced to kill Connor. Kastagir and Connor were more alike. I think they both took into consideration that being the last was secondary to making certain that the Kurgan did not win.
Not really. The question people have wondered was did Connor mean, wait to attack or was he going to try and talk him out of attacking at all. The fact is, there was no surprise because not only did they sense each other, but Fasil even says his name.
They fight in secret. The garage was the only secret spot, so there wasn't going to be an attack as Connor made his way down there. He was ready for the fight the minute he walked in the garage and that's because he knew Fasil was in there and he knew he was going to be in the building.
They discussed the scenes that were cut in the US version, but not the European version which was finally released in the US. They even talked about the ending.
Doesn't mean that they cannot be confused by plot points and decisions.
Except as I pointed out, the series established itself as a separate universe that continued the story of the first film and took things not so much at face value. They still confirmed that the fight happened in 85. That Fasil, Vaslek, Kastagir and the Kurgan died. That Connor got together with Brenda and left NYC.
I never said that the film didn't make sense. I said that the film was able to tell a story without relying on the issues of the previous two films and told it as well as they could. Regardless of box office success or failure, from a story standpoint, it did a better job than the other sequels did.
There's a problem with this logic. In the first film, we see only a portion of Connor's life. 1536, 1541, 1542, 1590, 1783, 1943 and 1985. We only see two Immortal encounters. Only one Immortal is confirmed as hunting Connor. In "The Gathering", we have Connor going after Slan and there is an implication that it is personal for him. And even if not, that doesn't mean that Connor never hunted Immortals on his own.
All immortals sense each other. Doesn't mean they don't hunt each other, or sneak up on each other. "Wait, don't attack," or "Wait, let's talk," both mean that Connor is not ready for a fight. He could have had his weapon ready, and then asked Fasil to "wait," and Fasil would have been more likely to let him talk more because they would have been facing each other from equal positions. Fasil had his sword out before Connor, and he used that advantage to attempt a killing blow. Even his calling out to Connor did not change that fact.
If Connor was ready to fight, he would have had his sword ready so that no one could possibly take his head. He obviously had no idea how near Fasil was, and possibly thought he could get away. Fasil caught Connor off guard, much as the Kurgan caught him off guard the night he began hunting Connor.
Sure, they discuss that stuff, but you don't get every detail.
So, I'm supposed to believe all the network execs that reviewed that movie were stumped at some point as to what was going on, and yet, my parents would watch that movie on HBO every time they played it, for like a 3 days in a row? My parents weren't into watching movies they couldn't understand, so I have to wonder what would differentiate them from the people who were actually putting money into the film.
The series was able to do that, because there was no need to throw out half the movie in order to do so. The cartoon series, for instance was unable to use the film. It took a few characters, and that's it. As far as the cartoon was concerned, Connor had died, and Ramirez was alive. The more scenes there are in the movie that confirm those were the last 3 or 4 immortals, the less able to use the movie as a back story the series would be. That is why I said it was fortunate the conversation, about Connor and Kastagir turning on each other after killing the Kurgan, was cut out of the film.
I never claimed you said that. I was agreeing with you that it made sense. But you can't disregard success or failure, when you're next movie doesn't even make it to theaters. For all we know, the changes they made to the script helped change the dramatic effect of the movie so much, as to make it less theatrical. As I stated before, we'll never know.
You'll notice in my comment, when I stated "his role in all the other movies," that I was not talking exclusively about the first film. I was talking about all the films that Connor appears in. He never hunted anyone, except for the one Highlander episode he appeared in for the series. Of all the immortals that we definitely know hunted Connor for a fact, there are several. The Kurgan, Katana, Corda, Reno, Kane, Kane's sidekick, and Jacob Kell. It's pretty clear what kind of character the film universe was portraying him as when over 90% of the immortals he faced in the films were definitely hunting him.
As far as Slan goes, I believe it was personal for Connor, because Slan was planning to make Duncan's life a miserable hell, before killing him. How much more personal could Slan get without ever actually coming into contact with Connor? One of Connor's first lines of dialogue in that episode was "He's not gonna fight you, Duncan. Not until he's made you suffer, until he's destroyed everything you love in this world, until you don't know whether you want to live or die." Slan hadn't done those things to Connor.
"Wait, let's talk" doesn't mean that he wasn't ready. It could be that they might discuss whether or not they should fight. The fact is it is unclear what wait means and it isn't even in the script. Seems like an add-on. As to having it at ready, that was more of the idea that here are two normal guys carrying swords in their coats. It was Mulchay trying to create a surreal moment by waiting until then to show it.
Doesn't seem likely that was the case. Again, Connor was there for a reason. He wasn't trying to run from Fasil. He was there for a fight.
My mom and sister had trouble following the first time they saw it. While my sister did later on when she watched the series with me, my mom still had trouble understanding it when I showed it to her again nine years later. Even execs can find things confusing.
Nothing from the film was thrown out. Just a few pieces of dialogue from Connor, Kastagir and the Kurgan. That's not half the movie.
That was a different universe with different Immortals. Ones who didn't cut off their heads to kill and where Ramirez was not the same Ramirez of the films and live action series. It was much like "The Search For Vengeance", a stand alone storyline that borrowed from the lore, but was meant to be its own beast.
What part of taking a face value don't you get?
Every "Highlander" film had significant changes in the script stage, before filming even began and that's not counting in production changes. The change from Eric Berent's story to William Panzer and Gillian Horvath's story is why the fourth film even got made. The fifth film not making it to theaters was down more to the fact that a test screening not doing well, than how much money the fourth film made or didn't make. It was still in the cards right up to then.
Not true. Connor hunted for Katana which was the point of the dome fight. He followed him from where Brenda was buried to where they would have their first fight. Their last fight, Connor knew that Katana would be there when he went to the generator room. Ramirez had said that it would take the power of them both and they felt each other when Connor and Louise arrived at the December Installation.
Yes, but he might have done it to one of Connor's friends. The fact that he pegged Slan indicates that he knew something of his methods, before coming face to face with him.
This thread is now becoming hilariously reminiscent of the climactic fight sequence from the original film.
Ha ha ha... what kept you?
Long pointless discussions of failed franchises bore me.
You mean done in stylised blues and shadows, Lambert sweat, Clancy Brown sweat, cool orchestral music, flycam shots, different sound effects for bigger and smaller swords moving through the air, sparks from scraping swords, indeed, containing the SHEER POWER of AWESOME??????????
In this instance, "wait, let's talk" means Connor isn't ready, when he's not holding his weapon, and the other man is. It may be unclear to you, but the situation speaks for itself. Most of the time, not too many guys are gonna survive being the one not holding the sword.
One fact is, that a parking garage is not exactly a private place for this sort of thing. There are literally thousands of people at that arena. Anyone could have walked in at anytime. Only a character who could care less about being seen is going to start a fight there. Connor actually lived in New York, whereas Fasil most likely was not a resident of that area. It's more likely Fasil came to New York to hunt MacLeod.
They can. But I get the feeling several are going to be watching that movie. It's highly unlikely all of them would be stumped that way.
The entire voice over during the epilogue of the film was thrown out. They can't have Connor explaining the prize to Brenda that way, if he hadn't won it.
They were all different universes. One had the luxury of using most of the film because of it's setting, and because they only had to throw out one scene instead of 20, which allowed them to shoehorn the two together.
I'll explain this again. If you have 20 different scenes in the movie "that confirm" that they were the last few immortals on the planet, then there is "no" way you can "not" take them at face value.
As it is, there is maybe one scene in that movie that confirms it, and the series pretty much ignores that scene, as if it "never" happened. So far as the series is concerned, Connor never told Brenda what it was like to win the prize. Taking it at face value or not has nothing to do with it.
Oh come on. How much money one film makes, is going to have a direct impact on the budget and quality, of the next film. The test screening of the source did horrible, largely because the movie looked like crap, the actors weren't great, and neither was the script writer. The director sucked as well. They got what they paid for, and what they paid for wasn't good enough to release in theaters.
You're mistaken. Katana hunted Connor. Depending on which version you go by, Katana either came to the present, from the past, or he came to Earth from Zeist for the sole purpose of killing Connor. He then set a trap to draw Connor out. Connor had grown old and was about to die. He wasn't going to hunt anyone. Everything he did was in his own defense.
Slan obviously had a reputation among immortals that were still in the game. Duncan hadn't been taking part for the last 100 years, accept for the chance meeting between he and an enemy, like Walter Reinhart, so it would be no surprise that he wouldn't know Slan's reputation. Connor never mentions Slan doing anything to any of his other friends. Might be kind of important to point out, wouldn't you think? Instead, when Duncan and Connor are together, they discuss anything and everything but what Slan did to Connor or Connor's friends.
But I'm having so much fun.
Except Connor doesn't know if he's holding his sword until after he pulls it out and swings it.
The garage wasn't totally secret which is why the cops were called. But it was more so than the corridor leading to the garage. As to Fasil, it is hard to say where he was living at the time since it isn't in Moran's description. Course, you must also remember, the Kurgan and Kastagir chose to fight in an alleyway and were spotted. This all goes back to the intro of people now realizing there are unusually men existing among them.
Enough that things were changed, such as Ramirez's death which was supposed to be shown much latter in the film than it was, just to cut down on the number of flashbacks.
That's because in the series universe, she doesn't ask about it. They just went to visit Glencoe for a few days before going on to London.
Except it had nothing to do with the first film, other than a character named Connor MacLeod and a character named Ramirez, but with a different first name. It through out the entire mythology of the first film and said that the Jettadors had never won the Prize.
That's face value. You're supposed to ignore those things in the context of the series and the last two films.
Ah, but there's a difference. The budget on the second and fifth films were from different resources. The second was from a bonding company that gave them 34 million, more than what the first film made worldwide, much less what was spent. The third film was 26 million and more than what the second film made. The fourth film was one million less than the fourth. The fifth film had an estimated budget of 13 million.
Story quality wise, that's because of poor decisions on the part of the producers and director. Not so much budget.
I wasn't talking about why Katana got involved. I was talking about the fight specifically. "The Renegade Version" is how the fight was supposed to go. The Theatrical Cut was the bonding company's decision.
A lot of stuff got cut out. A whole subplot which explained why Richie kept hanging around after getting out of jail. As well as scenes being re-arranged to create a different narrative, even repeating the sparring session.
More or less yes.
Should Connor have to confirm this with his eyes? He knows that there aren't many of them left. That should be enough to take precautions.
The garage wasn't secret at all. There were thousands of cars there at the time, and conceivably, thousands of people could be walking through there at any given time. I have a hard time imagining that Connor would track the guy to this place, and then, when they meet, say, "Wait, (let's talk)" The difference between Connor and the Kurgan is that Connor cares whether or not he's been seen or not, which is why he hid his sword in the garage at Madison Square Garden. You'll recall that, when the Kurgan is seen killing Kastagir, he keeps his sword, and uses it to get away.
Exactly, which means they threw that part of the film out of the series. So this statement...
Which is what the series would have done if there were a bunch of scenes that couldn't be shoehorned into the show.
No, it isn't. Taking the events of the film at face value means that Connor won the prize. Not taking them at face value, means that killing the Kurgan did not win Connor the prize. If they had thrown out the entire fight with the Kurgan, that would be a totally different situation altogether. Now, they are totally ignoring/deleting a scene, instead of changing it so that it has a different value to the overall story. The more scenes they have to do this with, the less likely they are to use the movie as a back drop for the series. Fortunately for them, they were only forced to do it with one scene.
These numbers may seem like a lot to most people, but when you consider that The Phantom Menace and The Matrix both came out before Endgame, and both of those series ended before the release of The Source, you'll understand why 34 million isn't going to get you much in the movie-making industry. The Source was stacked full of crappy special effects, whereas Endgame had next to none. There goes your extra 34 million. Had the studio wished to keep up with the standards of what other sci fi/fantasy movies were at the time, they would have given the franchise an extra 150 million. The story was bad from beginning to the end. This goes way beyond the control of the producers and directors. They should have never, never ever, considered making a movie out of a script that's worse than Highlander II.
You can't ignore the "why" of the whole thing. Katana came to hunt and kill Connor. There's little else to it. Connor chose not to seek out Katana, but to stay where he was, grow old, and die. That's how the story goes. Once Katana sends his henchmen to hunt, and kill Connor, everything Connor does from that point on is self defense, because he is their prey for the entirety of the movie.
None of that disputes my point.