Amph It's A Kind Of Magic... Highlander (The Remake Thread)

Discussion in 'Community' started by dp4m, Jun 17, 2013.

  1. Juliet316 Chosen One

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    Even more reason not to ever see it!
  2. I Are The Internets Chosen One

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  3. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

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    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    Muddying the issue with semantics isn't going to change the fact that when I made my original statement that, "Connor wasn't a character who hunted immortals in the films," I was not implying that he wasn't the the type of character who made allies. He had immortal allies in every film he appears in, so it should be obvious that I wasn't making that statement. The one thing we never see him doing in the films is hunting immortals to kill them. All the immortals Connor killed in the films, except perhaps Fasil, were hunting him. Fasil was either a chance meeting at MSG, or he was hunting Connor. Nothing else makes sense.

    Byron meets Duncan backstage. Byron then tells his small entourage to go ahead without him. Byron then leads Duncan off, away from the back stage area, to a place that is even more obscure.
    There is a stark difference between that scenario, and what happened when Connor met Fasil. Fasil meets Connor in a parking lot full of cars. Fasil attacks Connor straight away.

    The locations are irrelevant here. In story, the two scenes put together denote a passage of time. He was driving like a manic a lot longer than he needed to in order to escape the scene of the crime. He obviously didn't care who saw him doing these things.

    In the 1500s the Kurgan broke down the door to Connor's house, demolished the stone walls with a sword, killed Ramirez, and raped Heather. In the 1980s, after killing Kastagir, the Kurgan broke down the door to Brenda's house, and kidnapped her. There's a pattern of behavior here, and none of it is sane. He used an over the top freaky attitude in order to freak Brenda out, but after killing Kastagir, he was still the same guy he always was. A total nutcase.

    By the time they finished the script for Highlander 3, the script for Highlander 2 had been retconned. In Highlander 2, Brenda Wyatt was killed in Africa by the depletion of the Earth's atmosphere. In Highlander 3, she was killed in Scotland by a car accident. They probably retconned H2 sometime in 1993, but it could have even been before that.

    Understandable. Pretty cool that you have them. Still, it's only your opinion that it had the makings of a good story. Although I don't doubt you that it did, the fact remains that most scripts do have the makings of a good story. Most stories do, for that matter. It's a vague enough statement that it doesn't say much. We'll never know how good it would have turned out, because we'll never get to see it.

    That's probably the biggest problem with the whole scene. Kind of makes me wonder who the sword master for The Source was. Daffy Duck?

    Both Connor and Kell are the same age. The film makes a big deal out of Kell having taken around 300 heads more than Connor. Until Duncan killed Connor, there was simply no contest at all for Kell. The difference in actual skill with a sword is not going to be as big as it was in that film. The 300+ more heads that had been credited to Kell had made him physically stronger and faster than anyone else. For instance, The Kurgan wasn't going to be able to knock down a thick stone house with his sword, unless he was far stronger than men are meant to be. He was able to do that years before Kell even became immortal. Somehow, Kell was able to far surpass the Kurgan, boosting not only his strength, but also his speed beyond anything that Connor or any other immortal could handle.

    And yet it was sped up like that. Paul's words can't retcon the finished product. Whoever made the decision to do it, changed the boundaries what a really powerful immortal is capable of, not only just for that movie, but for the entire franchise. It would directly effect Kell's character in Endgame.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Nov 21, 2013
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Or he was hunting Fasil and "Wait" is just to surprise the audience with a sword fight in modern day New York City

    Byron meets Duncan backstage. Byron then tells his small entourage to go ahead without him. Byron then leads Duncan off, away from the back stage area, to a place that is even more obscure.
    There is a stark difference between that scenario, and what happened when Connor met Fasil. Fasil meets Connor in a parking lot full of cars. Fasil attacks Connor straight away.[/quote]

    Not so obscure because anyone could have walked in.

    Not quite. There have been films where filming took place at night, but you can see traces of dawn when they got the shot that they needed. And again, we don't know how long it was between the fight and the escape. And the Kurgan did care, because he shaved his head later on.

    The former doesn't make him insane. It just means he was a brute warrior. The latter means that he had lost it which is evident in Brown's performance. Hence his licking the priest's hand, making rude gestures to the nuns, quoting Neil Young, waggling his tongue at Connor and the whole kidnapping. Rachel even calls it when he hears his message.

    Rephrase. They were going to keep the Ziest/time travel elements.

    Vernon Rietta, who was Adrian Paul's martial arts instructor during the series and the last two films. A veteran martial artist and played Manny in "Endgame." He did the sword fights on "The Source". F. Braun McAsh was the sword master, with help from Donnie Yen on "Endgame". McAsh was the sword master for seasons three through six of the series. .

    The destruction of Connor's keep home was really one of those silly things in the first film, that has turned off a lot folks. Especially since none of the other strong Immortals were ever shown doing anything remotely like that. But in overall terms, it is unclear how many heads the Kurgan had taken. It could have been close enough like Kell's was. It could also be that Kurgan went after many of the ancient Immortals and gained in strength from them. "Band Of Brothers" stated that Grayson was stronger than Duncan and despite a hard fight where they both were battered, Duncan won and grew stronger. "Methos" established that taking the head of Methos would increase the power of either Duncan or Kalas, thus giving them the decisive advantage. By "Finale", Duncan had taken two more heads to Kalas's one and was able to beat him. Kell killing many of various types is why he was stronger.


    He wasn't retconning anything. He was talking about what was filmed and what was done in post.
  5. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    They could have easily achieved that by having Connor creep up behind Fasil with a sword, and have Fasil say "Wait" That way, Connor's hunting Fasil would be part of the story. The way it is, Connor's hunting Fasil is not part of the story, and never will be. Storytelling is more than just roundabout occurrences that never get explained. Storytelling is about getting from point A to point B in such a fashion that the audience can easily follow what's going on as the action happens. Often, Elements of the story are purposefully left unexplained during the act, only so the story can then return to that certain issue and reveal to the audience what is going on. Attaching wild speculation to a rather simple scene like this, is an example of bad storytelling.

    Besides, filmmakers know they're not going to surprise an audience with a sword fight in modern day New York City, when they used that as a hook in the theatrical trailer to draw their audience to the theater in the first place.

    On the contrary, it would have to be obscure, and not just anyone could walk in. First off, they met back stage, which is an area where not just anyone is allowed. It's not like a public parking lot. Secondly, they "agreed" to start their battle someplace more obscure. It was someplace that was most likely to remain deserted. It would be ridiculous if they agreed to go someplace that was more public than the backstage area of a concert hall/stadium. The difference between Connor vs Fasil, and Duncan vs Byron, is that Duncan vs Byron was planned and agreed upon by both combatants before they began fighting. They set up a location, and had it out. The list of people that could be found back there would be incredibly small. That is a perfect example of how immortals had remained secret for centuries.

    Believe me, a haircut isn't going to do you any good, if you keep committing needless crimes, and get caught with the murder weapon. Driving through New York City, with an old woman clinging to the hood is not going to help you get away, no matter how far from the scene of the crime you travel.

    If someone broke into your house like that, and knocked down your stone walls, and you didn't think he was insane, you wouldn't think he was insane for any of it. Licking hands, being rude, and quoting Neil Young doesn't make a person insane in and of themselves. He was doing that to freak people out. He'd always been an insane, psychopathic, killer, from the beginning of the movie to the end, and all of his actions point toward that.

    The series had plenty of opportunities to include those elements, so did Highlander 3, but there is nothing that suggests they wanted to touch any of that, considering the audience response to it. It's clear early in the first season of the series that they didn't want to touch Zeist or time travel. The time travel element doesn't even make sense. Somehow, Katana is supposed to be able to look into the future and see that Connor was the final immortal. That means, at some point in history, someone killed Katana, and yet Katana is more concerned with killing Connor than he is with using his minions and his time machine to dispose of his own killer, so that he might live to be the last one and kill Connor when he is much more vulnerable.

    I have to agree with the general opinion, that the Kurgan destroying Connor's home was quite ridiculous. It is much like the hyper speed crap they gave The Guardian. Only the Kurgan's strength is inconsistent.

    We know Kell was credited with taking far more heads than the Kurgan, because all of the Kurgan's power, including the power of all the immortals the Kurgan killed, supposedly transferred to Connor. That Connor was literally no match for Kell is very telling here. The Kurgan was basically old news for the franchise, so they didn't mind discrediting his character. In Highlander 3, Nakano told Connor who Kane was, and he made the statement that, "Soon there will be none who can stop him," or something to that effect. But when Nakano said that, the Kurgan was still out there taking heads. The situation with Kell was much the same. You'll notice in Endgame, Connor never makes use of the power of illusion he supposedly got when he killed Kane. He has many advantages from killing powerful immortals in previous movies that he just doesn't use, as if the creators were ignoring that he should have them at all, probably because they didn't want him to seem like any kind of a challenge for Kell.

    My point was, that his statement about how the speed stuff wasn't supposed to be there, doesn't mean much, because it's not his place to decide what is and isn't done in post. Whoever decided to put it there had the authority to do so.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Nov 22, 2013
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The fact is that it is not a coincidence that Connor went to the Garden and got up, sensing Fasil in the building and went to the garage to confront him. The line wasn't even in the script, which is part of the reason why it is questioned being in the film in the first place.

    Yet it still treated as one in the film. As are other films that try to surprise the audience, while the trailer winds up spoiling it ahead of time. This also presumes that they even see the trailer and don't decide until they get to the theater or saw something in the newspaper.

    The list is small, but any crew member could have come in there. That's my point.

    I never said otherwise, but the fact is that the Kurgan did change his appearance because he feared getting caught. By his own admission.

    Connor: "Nice to see you, Kurgan. Who cut your hair?"

    Kurgan: "I am in disguise."

    In 1542, it wasn't uncommon for someone to come around with a sword looking for a fight. Hundreds of years of killing would eventually cause anyone to finally snap, which was the whole point of his behavior during the last twenty minutes of the film.

    In the time travel scenario, it was still as it was in the Ziest one. That five hundred years passed for Katana as it did for Connor and thus what he saw was almost real time. He didn't see any point beyond that. The Chief Justices said that the one who was left could choose to stay or go. Katana kept watch after Kurgan's death, on the off chance that Connor could have a last minute change of heart and choose to come back. That's why Connor said that he screwed up, because he made an assumption. Connor was content to stay and die. Another scene was left out where Katana watches the final fight between Connor and the Kurgan in the first film. The footage of this was in the 2004 DVD, under the deleted scenes section.

    The Kurgan's actions were a good visual, don't get me wrong. But it was that kind of thing that made the first film into a cult film.

    You must remember that Connor's heart wasn't in it, when he faced Kell. Ramirez stated that an Immortal could only defeat true evil with heart, faith and steel. Connor's heart was weak and his faith was shattered, because of the guilt of so many loved ones dying so tragically. It wasn't unlike what happened to Duncan in "To Be" and "Not To Be". Note that earlier in "Forgive Us, Our Trespass", Amanda and Methos believed that Duncan would let himself lose because of his actions following Culloden. Duncan did win, but only because he hadn't fully given up on himself. By the time of the series finale, he had which is why he didn't do as Methos said and change the rules to suit him, rather he played along with O'Rourke's game. It was only when he regained his sense of self worth, that he could fight again.

    Connor was in that same boat. He lost not just because Kell was more powerful, but because he didn't believe in himself. He believed that he was just as guilty as Kell, because it all began with his actions in 1555 with the death of Father Rainey. If he were to judge Kell, then he would have to be judged for his sins. That was why he gave himself up to Duncan, because he was a third party and could better judge Kell than he could. Not unlike what Methos did in "Comes A Horseman" and "Revelation 6:8", only without dying to get it done.

    As to the power of illusion, Connor didn't believe in cheating. He was supposed to be morally upstanding. In Kane's situation the third film, Nakano understood that Kane was trying to make himself powerful and was going to give himself an advantage by taking Nakano's head and his power. He was also interested in Connor which would only help. But being buried alive for four hundred years prevented him from reaching Kurgan's level, but he still had advantages. In the case of the Guardian, it only makes sense that someone like that would exist. Just not in the way it was handled in the end, with the speed.
  7. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    There's definitely no indication in the film that Connor sensed Fasil when he got up to leave. What's obvious about that scene, is that Connor wasn't enjoying the show. If he'd gone there for the sole purpose of hunting someone, chances are more likely that he would have hung out in the garage the whole time. Killing is serious business.

    What you're suggesting implies that the filmmakers left out a rather important part of the story. If Connor had an agenda for being there, it would be pretty easy for them to portray that, but they never do. I don't think surprising the audience was more important to them than telling the story as best they could. They would have to know that was what would keep people interested, because surprising most people with swords wasn't going to work. Most moviegoers decide before hand what film they want to see. Not all do, but the majority have a plan before they get to the theater. And even back in 1986, fortunes were spent on marketing movies during commercial breaks. You'd almost have to be living without a television to totally miss out on catching a glimpse of a trailer on tv. Most moviegoers had access to television back then. Advertising would be worthless if people with a tv were most likely to miss a trailer completely.

    Anything is possible, but for thousands of years, immortals had been operating under circumstances that were least likely to reveal them to the world. Those are the precautions that Duncan and Byron took. The chances that a crew member would find them in that place, during that short window of time, were next to zero. In contrast, Fasil took no precautions when he attacked Connor. I've been to plenty parking lots just like that one, and I can tell you, you'll almost never find one completely empty during a sold out event. Not only are you likely to find someone coming out of the arena, but it's just as likely that cars will be entering the lot from the street.

    Actions speak louder than words. I doubt he feared anything. His haircut would probably ensure that the cops stayed off his butt, so long as he didn't keep drawing attention to himself. Of course, he kept doing things that were likely to get him caught anyway. That just goes to show how much he cared about what "these helpless mortals" could do to him.

    Somehow, I'm under the impression that even in 1542, sword fights didn't commonly go down the way that one did. Why does it need to take hundreds of years of killing to drive someone crazy? 50 years of killing could do the same thing. Even 10 years of it. If you watch his scene in the church with Macleod, the Kurgan isn't always acting like a fool. He acts that way, for the most part, only when he's dealing with mortals.

    That 500 years passed for Katana. Yes. But he was still looking upon the future from the past. Katana didn't have to travel to 2024. He could have traveled to 1536 when Connor was vulnerable. Or he could have sent minions to assassinate the immortal that would eventually kill him, and thus live beyond the time of his own death. The time machine had the ability to send them to different eras, hence why Ramires was over 2000 years older than Connor in the first film. The whole problem with it, is that Katana traveled to 2024, which was an era when he would be forced to face the most powerful immortal that ever lived, an immortal who already possessed Katana's own essence within him. That's why the time travel thing doesn't make sense. The Ziest storyline doesn't carry this flaw with it. In that one, Katana had never taken part in the game that ended on earth in 1986, leaving the possibility that Katana could have been as powerful, or more powerful, than Connor.

    I don't recall the exact numbers they gave in the films, but I believe Duncan and Connor were credited with close to the same amount of heads taken They were nearly equal in power. But the film establishes that neither of them could take Kell alone. Connor gave his life to Duncan because there was really no choice. He stated earlier in the film that Duncan was the last person left that meant anything to him, and he wasn't going to let Kell kill him too.

    I don't think cheating entered into Connor's decision not to use it, anymore than it did Nakano's decision to use it. There were no rules against using such tactics. I believe filmmakers decided to ignore it, as it would just complicate the film. Kell's interests were no different than Kane's. They were both trying to make themselves more powerful, and if Kell killed Connor, then Kell would have that power. It would be no different than if Kane had it, so far as the rest of the world was concerned, they were both evil.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Not true. Connor looks up specifically as if he senses someone. This is even in the script that he's looking for Fasil.

    Concentrating, MacLeod scans the crowd. Like a predator catching a scent, he leaves swiftly. The Drunk yells after him.

    http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/Highlander_final.txt

    The director's cut added the buzz from the series only in the garage, when Connor steps on the Coke can. He was there for Fasil.

    Ah, but the first film wasn't properly marketed. The television spots weren't regularly seen and the trailers weren't attached to all copies of a specific movie like they are today. There were people who didn't even know the film existed until it came out on video and more so, when it came on HBO. The latter films did have that, save for the fifth film. The third film had a good campagin and the fourth had one because it featured a WWE Superstar in a cameo.

    There weren't any precautions in the Duncan/Byron fight. They just went to another room and hoped no one would come looking.

    That's because he was losing his mind. But he did fear someone, that was Connor. He feared him which is why he went after him before he was ready.

    Who knows why it finally happened? Who knows why anyone would snap with all the killing and raping that was done.

    He sends Corda and Reno because Connor is old and weak. Failing that, Katana goes because he still believes himself to be superior to Connor. That still follows. The other stuff is an issue, but that's not something you're supposed to think about. Especially since they didn't have enough money and time to address all that.

    Right, but remember this, it is about quality and quantity. The quality of the Quickening is a factor. Hence taking Methos would give an advantage to Duncan or Kalas. But in the case of Kell, he just killed any Immortal that he could and it didn't matter how old they were or how strong, he just killed a large number of them. Duncan may have had 174 confirmed kills at the start of the fourth film, but they were all a mixed bag. You had two Immortals who were almost five thousand years old, a nine hundred year old one like Xavier, a sixteen hundred year old like Grayson and all that Kol'tec had from his years of killing. Kell just had a whole bunch. Weak ones like Johnny K. and strong ones like Damon Case.

    Connor does acknowledge that they couldn't take him alone, but they could as one. But he only says this because of his own guilt.

    I never said it was against the rules of the Game. It is about personal feelings. The MacLeods believed in a level playing field. Nakano, Kane, Kanis, Cassandra and Kantos believed in using what worked best for them. Xavier and Morgan believed in using poisons as an advantage, later Xavier even used mercenaries when Horton suggested it. Kronos sent two Immortals out to kill Duncan. Merek hired mercs and arranged a confrontation in a building of his own design and tried to taint the field.
  9. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    That script does not say that he's looking for Fasil. It is very vague. For all we know, Connor could be running to get away. This looks a lot like a chase scene, and it doesn't seem like Connor is doing the chasing...

    It mentions that Fasil is blocking Connor's path, not the other way around. Usually a hunter will attack during the most opportunistic time. If Connor was the hunter, then he had no plans for making his escape. By the time he finished, there was a blockade of cop cars at the entrance. That's incredibly sloppy hunting. That location could hardly be the most opportunistic time. If that were the way immortals usually did things, they would all populate their local penitentiarys.

    People saw the trailer. It wasn't like it wasn't getting out there. As far as those who didn't know the movie existed until it came out on HBO, or video cassette, that can be said about most movies. Even today. Most people aren't going to pay attention to a trailer that doesn't interest them. So they can't be expected to recall every movie they see advertised on tv. I don't recall Back To The Future being advertised. If it weren't such a successful film, I probably wouldn't know that it existed. The point is, most people who went to the theater to see that film, knew there were going to be sword fights in the modern era, every bit as much as the people who go to see Anchorman 2 know it's a comedy.
    If that wasn't a precaution, why bother going there at all? It was a precautionary measure. It wasn't like they were fighting in some waiting room back stage. They went to a large, and dark, and secluded place, and they went there together, and when they got there, they began fighting. If it weren't a precaution, they would have started fighting in the exact spot where they met, the way Connor and Fasil did.
    He'd lost his mind long ago. But he didn't fear Connor. He went after Connor, simply because Connor was his enemy. If he'd feared Connor, all he had to do was threaten to kill Brenda unless Connor laid down his sword. But he didn't do that. He only kidnapped her in order to draw Connor out. And it worked. And he fought Connor without fear, without using Brenda in order to force Connor to lay down his sword.
    The point is, he went crazy hundreds of years before 1986. his very existence as an immortal that would be forced to kill to survive made him a maniacal mad man. That is how he came to be the strongest of all immortals. His little goofy act, that he would pull when he wanted to freak out some random mortal was nothing more than an act.
    The fact that he believes he's stronger than Connor is a problem as well. According to the way things work in the Highlander universe, Connor had already absorbed Katana's power, when Katana was at his strongest. For Katana to believe that he is a match for Connor in 2024 doesn't make much sense. Perhaps you're not supposed to consider those things. But it illustrates why the story doesn't make sense, and why they would not want to use Highlander 2's time travel theme in the show, or any of the other sequels.
    It wasn't because of Connor's guilt that he said that. Connor may have felt guilty, but that wouldn't apply to Duncan. He was also stating that Duncan didn't stand a chance alone. It was obvious that Kell had killed quality immortals as well, and more of them than Connor or Duncan had. Connor was one of the stronger immortals, and after Duncan killed him, he only just barely beat Kell. Had he not absorbed Connor's power, he'd have stood no chance.
    Connor's feelings on using that power are never made clear in any of the films. In essence, they threw it out as if it never was. The reason the Macleods didn't use it, wasn't because they believed in a level playing field. When Duncan first fought the Guardian it wasn't a level playing field. The Guardian had a supernatural advantage, and all Duncan had to do in order to even things out, was use his powers of illusion. But he didn't do it.
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That's not that vague.

    True, but then the fight itself in the film is different as Fasil walks up behind Connor rather than in front of him. He blocks him from going back the way he came, but not the rest of the garage. Add in that Connor puts on the gloves and starts looking around for Fasil, and it is clear he is hunting him. As to the garage itself, Connor went where he felt Fasil was.

    Those that saw it, some went out of curiosity. A lot more didn't because it looked too silly.

    Today is different because of social media and attaching trailers. Back then, if the film wasn't given a good marketing push, it would get lost in the shuffle.

    It was out of sight, but they were still in a building full of people. Not an abandoned warehouse (Barnes), an empty airport hanger (Drakov) or a power plant (Kane).

    Not according to the novelization.

    It was fear. In the script, Connor senses that the Kurgan is hiding something which makes Kurgan defensive. During the final fight, Connor realizes it was fear. The fear of Connor. Though it was cut from the film, it wound up in "Highlander Origins: The Kurgan". The Kurgan had killed his mentor and gained limited precognitive abilities and saw Connor holding his severed head, centuries before he was born. Ramirez and Kane both learned of this, which is why they sought Connor out. He took Brenda to use as bait, but also try and use her against Connor.

    See the novelization.

    He didn't fear losing to Connor in a fight. He feared that Connor would come back and usurp his position, which is what Ramirez foresaw in Connor. That's why Katana was surprised by the revelation that the one left would have the choice to come back. He knew that if either one came back, they would be in a better position to overthrow his regime.

    Yes, but Connor's guilt was preventing him from getting out there and fighting his best fight. It is entirely possible that Connor could have beaten him if he was stronger mentally than he was when he did try to fight him. Duncan only won because Connor's ghost spooked Kell and he hadn't broken Duncan yet.


    Connor's feelings were made clear because he tells Nakano that he would not take his head for the power of illusion and stops short of doing it, when Nakano tries to make him do it, using the technique that he showed him earlier. Duncan's feelings are clear because he's spoken at length about level playing fields and unfair advantages. Even following the rules as much as possible. He wouldn't even kill Methos to beat Kalas and never once used a gun or some other weapon other than a bladed one to fight.
  11. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    How could it not be vague? It doesn't let you know whether or not Connor is looking for Fasil, or trying to get away from him.

    The fact that Connor puts on his gloves, only verifies that Connor knew an immortal was there. There is no indication that he knows who that immortal is, or that he was hunting for Fasil when he decided to go to MSG. In the movie, the fact that Fasil was so easily able to get the drop on Connor, shows how little attention Connor gave to hunting Fasil. If you're out to kill someone, wasting time watching the show isn't the way to go about it. The most likely senario here, is that Connor was at the show, decided to leave early, for whatever reason doesn't really matter, and felt an immortal there in the garage. Fasil found Connor first, leaving Connor with no opportunity to escape.

    Many films trailers from the 80s looked silly. Highlander's trailer was very fitting for that time. And then there's the fact that by 1986, people were used to seeing such films. There was a market for them. But of course, everyone who saw it at the theater saw it out of curiosity. Curiosity is the main draw of the movie theater. You never know what any movie will be like until you've seen it.

    Film trailers were a very successful method of advertisement in the 80s. So far as making profit is concerned, Hollywood may have been more successful back then than they are now. Attaching trailers and social media aren't going to make that big a difference. People had tv sets, and trailers would air during commercial breaks. Tv is becoming less and less prominent now, so Hollywood is increasingly reliant on social media, and attaching trailers to do the job.


    A building full of people, over 99% of which weren't allowed back stage. Now, when you add to that the fact that they decided to fight someplace that was even more secluded than the backstage area, you have a situation in which they are taking precautions. if you watch the episode again, notice that all the halls in the backstage area are empty after Byron tells his entourage to go ahead of him. There's no one back there. The chances that someone would find them in an even more secluded location would have to be somewhere near 1% Byron fires off a hand gun. No one comes. Duncan takes Byron's head, and receives his quickening. Still, no one comes. You'll notce a distinct difference in how the Fasil/Connor fight went. The cops were alerted to the disturbance, and Connor was taken in for questioning before he could escape the scene.


    The last time I invoked the novel, you posted the following...
    I have since restrained myself from referencing it again. If the novel is in fact valid, then immortals are unable to sense each other the way they do in the tv series. Note that in the novel Kastagir was able to fool Connor into thinking a mortal was actually immortal, which would completely go against your theory that Connor felt Fasil at MSG. If this is the case, it's quite likely that the novel doesn't accurately follow the film where the Kurgan's mental state is concerned.

    I've heard of some vague prophecy that foretold of a highland savior. That has no place in the film. Plenty of scripted themes and scenes will be cut from any film. When they are, they don't qualify as evidence that something happened in the story. A good reason for them to cut anything that might suggest the Kurgan feared Connor was what I pointed out in my last post. If he feared Connor, why not demand that Connor forfeit the fight, in order to spare Brenda's life? Fear makes no sense. If the Kurgan saw a vision like you described, the last thing he would want to do was fight Connor in melee combat. So far as the actual film is concerned, there's no evidence that the Kurgan feared death.

    The statement about the novelization being flawed that you and I have both made use of now, applies here as well.

    If he lost to Connor in a fight, he would lose his position anyway. Whatever Katana's motivations were, matters little. He time traveled to the worst possible era that he could in order to challenge Connor. Only a fool would purposely travel to a time in which his enemy is at his strongest. Traveling to 1536 would have been a lot more intelligent and convenient for his purposes. The time travel story may be what they chose as cannon, but the alien story is the one that makes more sense.

    If Duncan only won because he was unbroken, and Kell was spooked, how much chance was there of Duncan winning if he hadn't first killed Connor, before facing Kell? Duncan and Connor were almost equal, so if Duncan didn't stand a chance, Connor didn't either. That is pretty much what the film established. If one didn't have a chance, neither did the other, and only together could they do it.

    Connor was not stating his opinion about the power, he was making a statement about his own character. He wasn't the type of person to murder his friends for his own selfish gain. He never felt the use of that power was cheating. As far as Duncan is concerned, using the power would have leveled the playing field against the Guardian. As I stated earlier, the Guardian had a supernatural edge over Duncan, but Duncan didn't use his power to level the playing field. The power of illusion wouldn't suddenly make Duncan invincible, as is evident by Connor killing Kane, and Kane killing Nakano. Using it would have only worked to even Duncan's odds against the Guardian.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Nov 26, 2013
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    star 9
    The description refers to Connor as being like a predator. Last I check, predators don't run from prey.

    Again, Connor was looking around for Fasil. Just because he managed to pop up behind him, doesn't mean that he wasn't looking for him. As to the show, Connor was waiting for Fasil to show. You're trying too hard to rewrite what is in the movie and in the script.

    Right, but if the trailers aren't played enough on television, people aren't going to see it. If enough theaters don't carry it, no one will go.


    I said certain parts of it, not the whole book. I'm about to watch the first film again, as part of my yearly watching, so I'll see if there's something in the commentary.

    The Kurgan initially wanted to kill Connor before he was ready, which Ramirez said he was when the Kurgan showed up. That was why he did so. Out of fear. Why he showed up when he did.

    That's what Connor points out in both versions and why Katana's face falls when he's told that.

    Because as Duncan said, no one was unbeatable. It took Duncan doing something Kell had not encountered in his fights, which was Duncan jumping over him which caught him off guard and Connor's ghost. The odds were there as much as they had been with his previous fights against Immortals who outranked him.

    Yes, it was about his character. But even having something that he had no use for, was part of his reasoning.

    Except as pointed out, even when Immortals used other means as an advantage, he didn't rely on that himself. Xavier used gas, but Duncan didn't. He believed that if someone is going to fight, they needed to be armed. Note that when Duncan realizes that their Immortality is gone, he says that if this was true for the four of them, then it was true for the Guardian. In his mind, that was a level playing field.
  13. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

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    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    Predators don't run when they have an advantage. They often do run when they're at a disadvantage. Connor didn't have an advantage. When he first felt an immortal nearby, the script mentions that he scanned the crowd like a predator. In other words, he kept his cool, and didn't panic. But he couldn't find Fasil = advantage Fasil. According to the actual scene, Fasil knew where Connor was. In essence, this so-called predator became the prey. In both the script, and in the film, Fasil shows up where he is not expected, and Connor is forced to fight. For a guy who supposedly planned to kill someone at that time and place, Connor certainly got caught with his pants down both before and after the fight.

    As far as the way they wrote the script, put yourself in Connor's position, and for the sake of this example, pretend that you're not hunting Fasil. If you suddenly got the feeling that a, possibly, mortal enemy was somewhere near you, wouldn't you want to know where he was exactly? Would you not hunt for him with your senses first, before you decided to take another step in any definite direction?

    I'm trying to rewrite the script? What you're suggesting, is that Connor knew Fasil would be there, but Fasil didn't know that Connor would be there. (that is what hunting is all about, after all) So Connor goes to watch the show, in order to wait for a guy he is supposed to be hunting, and yet, it is Fasil that gets the drop on Connor... I find it difficult to believe they would write the character, and the scene, in such a sloppy way as to not let you know that it did indeed happen that way. Fasil is the only one who was behaving in a way a predator actually would behave.

    Trailers weren't the only thing that determined whether a film was successful or not. There were plenty of films that didn't do that well, that had adequate advertising. People just weren't that interested. Highlander 3 didn't do that well at the box office. That can't be blamed on the advertisement. The movie was to blame for that. The original Highlander is a cult classic. It's not mega popular even to this day. That can't be blamed on the advertisement. Whether or not the reboot has great advertisement, will not guarantee it's success either.

    That's true, but you never established that there were problems with the reference that I made. The point is, however, either the person who wrote the book was working closely enough with the people who made the film to be accurate enough to use as a reference in a discussion about the film, or the author wasn't working closely enough with them to be a reliable reference. It's not a good idea to complicate matters, by trying to spin it both ways whenever convenient.

    The Kurgan wants to kill every immortal before they're ready. Connor is not special so far as that is concerned. But it doesn't mean that the Kurgan fears anyone. There's nothing in the film that suggests the Kurgan feared Connor or anyone else.

    It's not exactly the same situation in both movies. Katana can not pick and choose different centuries to invade in the alien version. He has no choice but to travel to 2024 Earth. In the time travel version, he can go to any year he wants to.

    And Duncan was right. No one is unbeatable. And Connor was right as well. The way to beat Kell was together. Both of those points are proven in the film. The odds were not the same as any previous fight Duncan or Connor had ever had. Duncan had never faced an immortal that outranked him by so much. That is why they made Kell into a film villain, and not Grayson, or Kalas or someone else. In fact, in order to trump Kell in the next film, they created an entirely supernatural villain. The point of the Kell character, is that he was an ultimate evil character, that was on a totally different level than any of the others. Either Duncan or Connor would have to die, in order to get rid of him, or else they both would.

    I don't recall there being anything in the film to confirm that. Connor was a student of Nakano's and there's a good chance that Nakano would have taught him to do that anyway. What I do know is that Ramirez gave Connor that same exact test, only Ramirez didn't have any magical skills like that.The results were the same.

    Attempting to use gas during a sword fight does does not give Xavier an unfair advantage. That was what cost Xavier his sword hand. You'll notice that in the beginning of The Source, what applied to most immortals, did not necessarily apply to the Guardian. Regular immortals couldn't feel him coming, so they weren't sure what he was. Duncan's statement near the end of the movie just goes to show how badly written the film is. But all that hardly matters, as my statement was about Duncan's first meeting with the Guardian. It had nothing to do with that stuff at the end.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Nov 27, 2013
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    star 9
    Oh, I noticed in watching the first film, that when Matunas pulls off the main road and onto the side street, that you can see the pre-dawn light in the skyline. This is indicating that the sun was coming up before he runs into Kurgan and Kastagir. Later, Kurgan goes back the way Matunas went and you can see the sun starting to come up before the Kurgan pulls out onto the main road. So Kurgan wasn't driving a long time like that. It was only a few moments between when Matunas went in and Kurgan came out. It wasn't a half hour later or anything.

    Connor was scanning the crowd before he feels Fasil, not afterwards. Then he takes a moment to close his eyes and remember a real fight, before he finally catches Fasil and heads out. He wasn't even paying attention to the match, he was waiting on Fasil. He went down to find him and the only disadvantage was that Fasil came up behind him.

    Why? It isn't impossible for that to happen.

    The film had been properly advertised in its international release and did fairly well.

    Not really, because the novelization is based on the shooting script and contained material that ran contrary to the film. In the film and the script, the Immortals can feel each other. In the book, they don't as Kurgan could feel Connor from where he was, but Connor would have felt right away that he wasn't facing an Immortal in the Kastagir flashback. Not to mention that the novelization says that Connor left his sword at home, when he goes to the bar to see Brenda. But in the film, he removes it from his coat when he steps off the elevator.

    That's never established beyond Connor. Yong Dol-Kim and Ramirez were ready for Kurgan when he encounters them. We don't see the start of the fight with Kastagir. The few Immortal encounters in the comics, only one other character wasn't ready and that was mostly to do with holy ground.

    Ramirez said otherwise.

    KURGAN: "The Highlander--where is he?"

    RAMIREZ: "You're too late, I've prepared him for you."

    Trying to kill him before he was ready is one sign.

    No, I meant that Katana thinks one dimensional.

    Maybe or maybe not.

    It doesn't appear to be a teachable skill, but one absorbed because it was natural to Nakano.

    That wasn't a test in the first film, especially since he doesn't answer Connor about what would happen if it was the two of them.

    Only because Duncan knew that he was going to use it, because of their last encounter. Other Immortals have probably fallen to the gas grenade.

    Not true. Duncan and Zai Je both felt the Guardian in the first part of the film. Duncan, Reggie, Methos and Giovanni don't sense him at the house. Though they apparently do after burying Reggie, though I think that was a screw up. They don't sense him at the feral gang's camp. Giovanni doesn't feel him when the Guardian is up in the tree. Duncan doesn't feel him when he popped up out of the ground to fight Duncan.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Nov 28, 2013
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Edit: Double Post.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Nov 28, 2013
  16. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

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    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    Good catch. I re watched that scene, and you are correct. There is still the fact that the Kurgan has his own car. He wasn't forced to take another person's in order to escape. He did that because it would be fun for him to do so.

    We don't know when Connor felt Fasil. He could have felt him before the film began. What sense does it make to sit there scanning a crowd of 15 thousand people for one guy? He was paying attention to the match enough for it to remind him of his own personal experiences. You'll notice, the script says that he began to concentrate on scanning the crowd after he had his flashback to the 15th century. Fasil finding him was a huge disadvantage for Connor. That's the type of advantage most hunters want when they're seeking prey.

    It's sloppy, in story and out. If Connor is there to hunt an extremely dangerous prey, I find it difficult to believe that he would be so lax, that he would go watch the show, instead of laying in wait, and staking the place out, for a good opportunity to make a move. What you're suggesting Connor did, is automatically give any serious hunter the upper hand by going to watch the show. Fasil got to choose the ground in which they fought on, not Connor. Fasil probably had an escape planned for after he took Connor's head. Connor obviously made no such plans for escape. He doesn't act like a predator at all, which is why he got caught by the cops, and why Fasil was able to get the drop on him.

    Opening weekend it did fairly well in the US, grossing almost half of it's total US sales in those 3 days. American's knew about it, they just weren't that interested in it.

    Yeah. It's been years since I read the novel. But, I think even back then I got the feeling that the author wasn't working closely with the filmmakers, and didn't have much inside knowledge. Personally, I wouldn't refer to his work in this discussion, because he wasn't keeping up with the changing script.

    It's established by most immortals we see Connor fight. For instance, Ramirez taught Connor to fight instead of killing him. Kastagir befriended Connor. To these two characters, other things, beyond the game, such as friendship, consumed their attention. I would say no one but Connor was ever ready for the Kurgan, because he'd kill them before they ever got ready. The way the story goes, in order to be ready for someone like the Kurgan, you're going to have to take enough heads to match him. Connor wasn't ready to fight the Kurgan in 1541, any more than he was ready to fight Kane in the mountains of Niri several decades later.

    Ramirez's words kind of lose their credibility after the Kurgan killed him. Ramirez was not ready to face the Kurgan. He was over 2000 years old, and totally overpowered. How could Connor be ready?

    The Kurgan killed everyone before they were ready. The only immortals that stood much of a chance against the Kurgan were the last few, because they accumulated power of every immortal that ever lived was represented by them. The Kurgan was the most powerful immortal at the time. He didn't wait for an opponent to catch up to him before he killed them. He certainly didn't wait for Ramirez to do so.

    He may. However my point has been that the time travel story doesn't make sense, which should be Panzer's and Davis' incentive for not using it as a backdrop in the show, or any of the other movies.

    How does it appear that way?

    You're missing out on a theme in this story. Two immortals living together is always a test. Ramirez not answering Connor is irrelevant. He told Connor, "In the end, there can be only one."

    That doesn't mean gas is an advantage. Gas may be good for helping Xavier escape, but nothing else. All Duncan would have to do is hold his breath, and avoid the sphere of influence of the poison. They were fighting out in a wide open area, not an enclosed space. And if they were in an enclosed space, Xavier would be every bit as affected by the poison as Duncan. Poison gas bombs are not practical in a sword fight.

    One way or another, it was a screw up, because it's inconsistent. Still, Duncan's first words to the Guardian may suggest that they weren't ever supposed to be able to feel him.
    Duncan: "What are you?"
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    We don't know where the Kurgan parked his car, when he went after Kastagir. So he would have had to taken the first car that he saw and not Matunas's car.

    Nope, he wouldn't be sitting there with a passing interest in the show. He didn't feel Fasil until he looks up. Lambert has a tell that he used in every film when Connor senses an Immortal, he looks up. He does it in the arena, he does it in the dome fight and in his apartment when Ramirez arrives, he does it in the shrine and he does it in the cemetery.

    Connor is sitting there waiting for Fasil to show up. However he knew that he would be there, the fact is that he knew he was.

    He wasn't really lax. He give a moment to think about a real fight, but he was prepared for a fight. Just because he didn't lie in wait, doesn't mean a thing. The few times Duncan went looking for an Immortal, he just walked up to them. He didn't draw them out. Damon Case did the same thing. Not every Immortal treats it in the same regard.

    Opening weekend on the first film was two million on a nineteen million budget. That was not good in 1986. As Panzer said on the 04 DVD release of the second film, it was really bad. He was depressed until the French premiere and saw better numbers coming in.

    Some stuff has transcended the book and became part of the lore. The Kastagir flashback is one of those odd ducks because of how it doesn't fit in properly.

    We know that Ramirez didn't kill his teachers, as least one of them lived longer. Graham Ashe, to be specific. Kastagir, though, we don't know what he did to his teacher. In the deleted scene, Kastagir tells Connor that Ramirez filled his head with nonsense about brotherhood and said that it was nothing personal. Which probably fit in with his comments about possibly poisoning Connor and the novelization's flashback.

    Well, the first film didn't establish that. Through the series and the last two films it did.

    Well, either he really was prepared or that was intimidation. The first time Connor fought Kurgan in 1803, it ended in a stalemate with Connor losing his sword. Their next one was in 1958 and the Kurgan had the advantage, before the fight ended due to other circumstances. Their third fight ended with the police arriving.

    Ramirez fought him three times before and managed to hold his own. We don't know how the fight with Vaslek went and how it started with Kastagir. The Young Dol Kim scene, he was ready for the Kurgan.

    Kane was Nakano's student and he never demonstrates the ability prior to then. He is insistent that he has to take his head in order to gain it, when giving orders to Khabual and Senghi. Nakano even says that he won't die so easily and implies that this isn't the first time they crossed swords over it.

    In WWI, the gas bomb that Xavier used took out Duncan and several soldiers. Xavier then felt Duncan and was prepared to strike when allied forces arrived. That was out in the open battle field when Duncan was there to pick up wounded.

    He's never seen an Immortal look like that. He's seen what Kronos looked like through Ahriman's disguise. But that was the Bronze Age and not today. Duncan feels the Quickening as well as sees it when the communications tower falls and then he feels the Guardian when he arrives at the wreckage. He's even looking around for him when the Guardian appears behind him, at which point he turns around.
  18. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

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    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    We don't need to know where he parked it. He isn't going to park it very far away. Even if it were a mile away, he'd draw less attention to himself by heading back to his own vehicle, than he would by escaping in a car with the hood cut off, and an old woman screaming in the front seat. He let the woman stay, because he wanted to have fun with her.

    You'll notice, if you watch again, that Lambert looks up exactly like that as the camera draws in on him for the first time. Then it cuts back and forth between Lambert, the action in the ring, and the flashbacks several times. If you're right about his tell, then he sits there for a good long while, after he sensed Fasil. He doesn't just get up and go straight away.

    Even the script does not say that he knows Fasil would be there. The movie certainly doesn't either.

    Neither Duncan or Case went to watch a show when it was their intention to kill someone. Not every immortal is going to do the same thing, but a hunter isn't going to behave in such a way that it would guarantee the prey gets the upper hand on them. The fact that Connor behaves this way, is very telling.

    The point is, opening weekend made 2.4 million out of a total 5.7 million. If people didn't know about the film, it wouldn't have made almost 50% of it's gross on the opening weekend. The box office earnings would have been spread out a lot more than it was. What happened after opening weekend is when things began to look bad for that film.

    Kastagir may have thought that stuff about them being brothers was nonsense, but he was still Connor's friend. Ramirez was testing Connor, by living with him. What Ramirez and Kastagir did with their own teachers has no bearing on what Connor did or didn't do.

    The film does establish that the Kurgan was the strongest of all immortals. Ramirez calls him "the perfect warrior." It also establishes that Ramirez was no match for the Kurgan. He was hardly qualified to gauge the Kurgan. Highlander 3 also establishes that taking heads makes you stronger, as it did for Kane, when he killed Nakano. Nakano also claimed about Kane that, "he keeps growing stronger every day, feeding off the power of other immortals."

    The one fight we do see from beginning to end tells all. Ramirez was sorely over matched. Not that he didn't fight well. He scored an impressive cut to the Kurgan's throat, but I get the impression that same wound would have stopped Ramirez cold. The Kurgan raised his tenacity far beyond anything Ramirez could handle after that.

    Nakano began teaching Connor to use the sword before he tested Connor's character. More than likely, he did the same with Kane. That is a test that Kane more than likely failed.

    Yes, but if Duncan is to have a choice as to whether or not to use something other than his sword to even the odds, Xavier's sneak attack in WWI doesn't count for much. During a one on one sword fight, Xavier's using gas was a disadvantage for him, and Duncan showed him why.

    The Guardian did look very weird. Duncan has seen many strange things in his day, such as the hallucinations caused by John Garric, in the episode Shadows, which was something he couldn't feel as immortals feel each other. He was also unable to feel the Kronos hallucinations caused by Ahriman. When he came across something strange like these things, he tried to find out what they were. The mystery for me is all about whether or not immortals were supposed to be able to feel him. I think now, I'm leaning toward your view on it, that they were. But the fact that often enough, they couldn't, still nags me.
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Assuming he didn't steal his car to begin with, he would still another car because he was in a hurry and didn't want to be connected to his car and his flop house address.

    The first time, he's looking for Fasil and doesn't find him yet. So he looks back. Then he does sense him and gets up.

    No, it doesn't. But it is the only explanation that makes sense given that he isn't a wrestling fan and as the script says, he's scanning the crowd.

    Even Duncan himself got caught unawares a time or two.

    According to Panzer, it wasn't that good for an opening weekend, which is why they were depressed by Monday morning. They were predicting more than two million to start with. Both the producers and the studio.

    Ramirez wasn't testing Connor when they were living together. He was preparing him for the Kurgan. The only time he was concerned was when Connor had him at a disadvantage and he opted not to do it. Beyond that, it wasn't a test of his character.

    He knew that he couldn't beat the Kurgan, which is why he sought out and trained Connor.

    Ramirez: "It is because of him that I sought you out."

    This establishes that there was a belief that Connor could beat him. The comic reveals that Kurgan had a vision of Connor and said his name in front of Ramirez, which is how he found out about him and why he sought him out.

    Which isn't the same as teaching. I was talking about it being something that is learned versus something that was natural to one and absorbed by others.

    Only because Duncan was ready for it this time.

    Right, but Garrick wore a hooded robe. Not too uncommon in 1994 and that was something that had been talked about, which is why Duncan had recognized it in his dreams. He also knew that it wasn't an Immortal, but something else. It was only at the end when he felt Garrick and recognized the ring, did he realize the truth.

    Actually, he could feel Ahriman. That was established in "Avatar", it just felt different from an Immortal.


    The Guardian was always meant to be felt, save for in Briggs draft. There, he was only identified by the short circuiting of lights and other power failures. But those were a different type of an Immortal. Here, the Guardian was consistently felt until their Immortality went away. Why a buzz was present in the forest is a mystery. It should have been his laughter or something. That was the only screw up in that department.
  20. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    It's unlikely that he stole his car. He had it at the beginning of the film, and he had it at the end of the film. Which means that after he escaped in the old man's car, he went back to get his own. If he cared about getting caught, he'd have thrown the old woman out, the same as he did the old man.

    According to what you said about his tell, then that is the face Connor makes when he senses an immortal. It's very likely that Connor sensed an immortal, the first time, and then began scanning the crowd. A few minutes later, after failing to find said immortal in the crowd, he decided to get up and leave MSG altogether, because in having absolutely no idea where his opponent is, he is left in a disadvantageous position.

    It's never stated that he isn't a wrestling fan. He states that the wrestling was lousy that particular night. (which is something that you may hear any wrestling fan say on any given night) His scanning the crowd of 15 thousand people doesn't make sense unless he's already felt Fasil there. Without some sort of aid, such as binoculars, it's incredibly hard to make out faces on the other side of the arena.

    Sure he did, when he was the one being hunted.

    Who knows what they were predicting. I'm sure they were hoping for more. They didn't have much of a basis with which to make a prediction. But half the people who saw the film in theaters, saw it during opening weekend so far as the US is concerned. It wasn't like the advertising got worse in the US after opening weekend. The movie just didn't get good reviews from the people who saw it when it opened.

    Ramirez began living with Connor before that. You're mistaken if you believe Ramirez knew that Connor wouldn't take his head. Ramirez wasn't an oracle, and he was teaching Connor that immortals had to kill each other in order to survive. Deciding to live with Connor was without a doubt a risk and a test. For all Ramirez knew, Connor could have ended up just like the Kurgan. It's pointless to prepare such a person to face the Kurgan, and definitely dangerous to live with such a person.

    Ramirez sought out Connor, because Connor was there, and Connor was immortal. Having 5 immortals that will fight evil, is better than having 4 immortals that will fight evil. For all we know, Ramirez spent a thousand years training immortals to fight people like the Kurgan.

    You're only assuming that it's natural. Almost directly after Nakano tested Connor's character, Kane killed Nakano. He had no chance to teach Connor how to use that power, and Kane most likely failed the test of character. Kane's only chance of learning that power was to kill Nakano. It's never stated that the same applies to Connor.

    Duncan didn't have to be ready for it. During WW2, Xavier lobbed a bomb at Duncan before Duncan ever saw him. The next time Xavier tried to use gas, he did it in the middle of a sword fight, which is the relevant instance in this discussion. He had his sword in one hand, and tried to handle a bomb in the other. They weren't more than a few feet from each other. It was a stupid move because it divided Xavier's focus from the fight.

    The hallucinations weren't the physical embodiment of Garrick. That's why he couldn't feel it, and didn't know what it was. As for wearing a hooded robe, it's not a common thing in New York. But the real point is that he couldn't feel the hallucination, even when he was wide awake.

    Perhaps. I don't think he felt the version of Kronos that appeared aboard his barge. But still, the point is it was strange to him, and he wanted to know what it was, and what was going on.

    I'd have to watch that forsaken movie again, but I thought for sure there were other screw ups. I'll take your word for it though cause I'm not about to re watch it.
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Nov 30, 2013
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    She was hanging on the front end of the car as he came out of the side street and we don't know how long she held on.

    No. He wasn't just deciding to leave. Again, the script says that like a predator he catches a scent and gets up. That means that he now knows that Fasil is there and he goes looking for him.

    No, but couple that with his memories of a real conflict and it leans heavily that he isn't a fan.

    No, but he could very well be looking for someone that stands out that he would recognize even in capacity crowd.

    When he went looking for Harseh Clay and ran into Richie, he was caught off guard.

    It opened in seventh place. Obviously they were hoping for at least the top three spot.

    Connor did try to attack Ramirez, that is true. But Ramirez knew that was coming and as he said, Connor's hating him for dumping him into the loch was a good way to start. He had already judged Connor as a good man which is why he didn't worry about his head and why he even bothered to train him.

    There was only one other student that was confirmed and that was Consone. He never gave any indication that he had any care about the Kurgan.

    True, it is an assumption, but the most likely one to make. Nakano could have taught it to Connor at any point, if it was just a teachable power.

    Yes, but remember that Xavier had intended to use the gas in the barge before Duncan made his presence known. So it wasn't that stupid of an idea. He just tried to use it because he knew that he was losing the fight.

    Seacouver, not New York.

    He did as he looked up and over in his direction. Later, he confused it with an Immortal presence when he went outside.


    Oh, there are screw ups to be certain. But in regards to the buzz, save for Reggie's grave side scene, it was consistent with the fourth film and the series.
  22. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

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    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    Yes, but it doesn't matter how long she was hanging on. If you need to make a quick escape, that isn't the way to do it. Keeping her in the car was a guaranteed way to draw attention. He could have easily thrown her out if he cared about drawing attention at all. But he didn't.

    It means he knows that someone is there. But we know immortals can feel each other nearby, so it doesn't say much about what he was doing there. There's no indication Fasil was ever watching the wrestling at all. There is indication that Fasil came to fight, and reason to believe that Connor did not.

    I wouldn't say it leans heavily toward that. The similarities between wrestling and clan warfare are minimal at best. In Highlander 3 Connor has a sparring partner named Charlie. His past experiences didn't stop him from enjoying the martial arts, so I find it hard to believe they would stop him from enjoying a staged entertainment.

    It was quite dark in that arena, with the lighting focused predominantly on the ring. And Fasil wasn't the type of man who sticks out in a crowd. He was very ordinary. The Kurgan would be much more likely to stick out.

    Duncan didn't know who it was, but he wasn't caught off guard. Duncan had his sword out, and was ready to fight an immortal, just as Richie was. Neither of them let the other guy sneak up on them, and get a free swipe at their neck.

    Obviously they were hoping for that. Hoping is not a prediction. Everyone wants a top three spot. The chances that they would get that spot were never going to be good. None of the Highlander films opened with that much success, and that can't be blamed on their advertising.

    It's clear that Connor does not hate Ramirez. Connor blames the devil for his immortality, and clings to Ramirez as a guide, despite what he says. Connor may not have been fond of Ramirez, but "hate" was a humorous exaggeration. Ramirez eventually judged Connor as a good man, but not in the beginning. In the beginning he had nothing to base such a judgement off of. Until they had spent time together, Ramirez was risking his life.

    The fact that there was one other, leaves plenty of possibility for others over a 2437 year life time. He wouldn't have to care about the Kurgan, so long as he was instructing them in order to fight immortals who were evil like the Kurgan. Duncan instructed Richie, so that Richie might have a chance to survive the Game, and Ramirez instructed his pupils for much the same reason. While Consone was no saint, he wasn't exactly evil either, and he even took Duncan as a pupil.

    If it's teachable, Nakano could have taught him at any point, but he wanted to test Connor's character first. After that character assessment, Nakano was killed. So if it was teachable, there was still no chance to teach it.

    Yes, but Xavier still tried to use it, and it was his downfall. That was, in no way, an advantage. Gas was a tool Xavier used, that Duncan turned on Xavier for his own advantage. The same can not be said of the Guardian's ultra speed. In order to defeat the Guardian, Duncan needed to employ a supernatural power of his own. That's my point. At the end of The Source, Duncan used the speed to level the playing field. But in the beginning, he never used his power of illusion to do so.

    But it's still not common to find guys roaming around with hooded robes there either.

    The first time Kronos appeared in Archangel, Duncan didn't mistake him for immortal. His first words to him were, "Kronos. You're not real. I took your head. You can't be real." You can tell by the way Duncan is just sitting there, calmly, when he first sees Kronos, that he doesn't sense anything. Duncan had no idea anyone was there at first. Duncan only ran outside after Kronos vanished into thin air.
    I would never argue that The Source was inconsistent with Endgame. I believe that The Source was inconsistent with itself.[/quote]
    Last edited by Aegon Starcaster, Dec 1, 2013
  23. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Is this argument going to meet a conclusion, or are you two going to be at it until The Gathering?
  24. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2013
    star 2
    I have to hand it to you. You just made this thread 100 times cooler.
    But it's been 100 years since I had the chance to discuss Highlander with anyone,
    and 200 since I sparred with someone who is a bigger fan than me.
  25. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I...I...don't...don't...I...what?