It's all Obi-Wan's fault: is it?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by stacysatrip, Apr 6, 2003.

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  1. stacysatrip Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 4
    How much, if any, blame should Obi-Wan get for the downfall of Anakin and subsequently the Republic? I love Obi-Wan, I think he's great, but I see a lot of arrogance in him in TPM then carried over to AotC.

    Initially, he didn't trust Anakin, but agreed to train him anyway out of respect for Qui-Gon. I don't think he ever developed trust in Ani. In AotC, he is very critical. He doesn't listen to Ani, and he doesn't understand him.

    Point is, Obi had no business training Ani. He was not ready for the responsibility, something he later admits. He just didn't know what to do. Of course, Ani is ultimately responsible for his own choices, but if Obi-Wan had been a bit more supportive of him, would he have taken a different path? Would he have been better off if Qui-Gon had lived and trained him?
  2. DarthNerfHerder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 1
    I agree with everything execpt when you said would he take a diffrent path. I think not, Anakin would have still joined sidious in my mind.
  3. Ret Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 1999
    star 6
    I'd say not much. It's Anakin's destiny. It doesn't matter who traisn him he has to go to the dark side.
  4. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    I don't think it was Anakin's destiny to become Darth Vader because the force didn't create him so that every living thing that creates the force can be destroyed by both him and the Emperor.

    I think Anakin's path would have been different had Obi-wan be more supportive of Anakin and show that he can trust him to do things on his own.
  5. stacysatrip Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 4
    PMT99--I agree with you. I don't completely blame Obi-Wan; I think he did all he knew how to do. I think he was too arrogant to admit that he wasn't up to the task until it was too late. Since Anakin's circumstances were different, his training should have been different. I'm not saying he shouldn't have had to abide by the code, by I think they all needed to realize that he needed love in his life. It's what anchored him to the light.
  6. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Don't forget that it was the Jedi Council's choice to allow Obi-wan to train him. Even Yoda disapproved of Anakin becoming a padawan.

    This is not to say that I wouldn't understand why Obi-wan feels some guilt about the consequences of training Anakin. Just that he was placed in a bad position to begin with.
  7. Elly_Nuruodo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2003
    This becomes a fault/fate issue.

    If it were anakin's fate to become Vader, then Ob1 is not at fault...

    If it wasn't his fate (or like Han, you just don't believe in it) then it is all Ob1's fault.
  8. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Another monkey wrench...

    Anakin's fate, hypothetically, was ultimately to become the Chosen One and destroy Palpatine and save the galaxy. Unfortunately, he gets sidetracked on the way due to poor training and handling by Obi-wan, thus making him vulnerable to Palpatine's manipulations. Rather than taking the straight and narrow path, Anakin takes the scenic route to his destiny.

    Thus, it is still his fate, and Obi-wan has some blame in this case.

    It all comes down to how predetermined his fate, as well as the path to this fate, really was. This will (or at least, should) be addressed in Ep.III.
  9. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    I don't think it's Obi's fault that Anakin turned. My reasoning, all of which is speculative, is as follows:

    The Jedi have never trained a person who is familiar with anger/sadness/etc..... until Anakin. So, it's their first time actually having to deal with a student who is not only aware of anger/sadness, but is familiar with the emotions. The Jedi decided that Anakin would immediately be a Padawan. No "youngling" education, where I imagine most of the work is done to learn how to deal with/ignore these emotions (i'm not sure whether or not the old jedi dealt with feelings or buried them deep.)

    The Jedi Council made a bad educational decision. I truly think that if anyone else had been Anakin's master, he'd still have turned.

    Looking at the issue in retrospect, Anakin is the beta test for Luke. They had to see first hand what went wrong in order to figure out how to get it right. Notice that in TESB, we get more information then anywhere else on "how not to fall to the darkside." Until that point, it really isn't addressed at all in the saga (we'll see for Ep3...)

    The Picnic :eek:
  10. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Looking at the issue in retrospect, Anakin is the beta test for Luke. They had to see first hand what went wrong in order to figure out how to get it right."

    Your speculation is correct for a different reason. Anakin represents all the wrong decisions, while Luke represents all the right decisions. Luke's presence and actions remind Anakin of what he needs to do, thus leading to his redemption.
  11. SomeRandomNerd Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>Anakin's fate, hypothetically, was ultimately to become the Chosen One and destroy Palpatine and save the galaxy. Unfortunately, he gets sidetracked on the way due to poor training and handling by Obi-wan, thus making him vulnerable to Palpatine's manipulations. Rather than taking the straight and narrow path, Anakin takes the scenic route to his destiny.

    I think that he was sidetracked when Qui Gon decided that he should be trained in the Jedi Arts, and given the ability to manipulate the Force when he was brought into existence to follow the Will of the Force.

    I think that Obi Wan shouldn't have trained him, because he wasn't ready, but it seems to me that the problem was that Anakin shouldn't have been trained in the first place. It was a burden placed on Obi Wan that he chose to accept, rather than Obi Wan's own decision that he should be trained, which, in my eyes, excuses him to some extent.

    And given that even Yoda apparently hasn't figured out Palpatine's true identity, I don't think Obi Wan can really be blamed for leaving Anakin open to his manipulations. The only person to blame for that is Anakin himself.
  12. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    I don't think it's exclusively Obi-Wan's fault that Anakin goes bad but Obi-Wan's inexperience and relative youth is certainly a contributing factor.

    Consider Obi-Wan from ANH teaching Luke to use the Force aboard the Millennium Falcon and chatting with him on Dagobah in RotJ....Obi-Wan has learnt a lot in the time since the end of Ep3, he's a lot more patient and careful about how quickly he advances his Padawans knowledge. Once bitten twice shy? [face_mischief]

    It could also be argued that the whole line of Jedi from Yoda to Dooku to Qui-Gon Jinn to Obi-Wan Kenobi and finally to Anakin Skywalker is flawed. What begins in Dooku as a dislike and defiance of authority absolutley ends up in Anakin.
  13. lil_jedi_blondie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 1
    I think, if it has to be someone's fault, it is all Qui-Gon's fault. He was the one that pushed to have Anakin trained.
  14. Trojan_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2003
    star 4
    Naw, Obi-wan should have talked Qui-gon out of this decision. :D

    [Obi-wan] "Why do I get the sense we've picked up another pathetic life-form?" [/Obi-wan]

    He wanted to, but kept his mouth shut. Now all the Jedi are dead!

    Stupid, stupid, stupid!!!

    ;)
  15. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Anakin is responsible for his own actions. People today are reading ROTJ too literally into the prequels. Anakin has his own problems that are pushing him to the dark side. Blaming Obi-Wan for what happened is like saying that the little dutch boy is to blame for the flood because he wasn't pushing his finger hard enough against the hole in the dam. It's not Anakin's destiny, but it is his fault, not Obi-Wan's.
  16. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    How much, if any, blame should Obi-Wan get for the downfall of Anakin and subsequently the Republic? I love Obi-Wan, I think he's great, but I see a lot of arrogance in him in TPM then carried over to AotC.

    Very little if any. Obi-Wan's biggest flaw seems to be that he loved Anakin too much and was too easy on him.

    Initially, he didn't trust Anakin,

    With good reason, as it turns out.

    but agreed to train him anyway out of respect for Qui-Gon.

    Emotional blackmail on Qui-Gon's part. If he hadn't asked, likely Obi-Wan would have not trained Anakin at all.

    I don't think he ever developed trust in Ani.

    Well, considering throughout much of AOTC Anakin does nothing to earn Obi-Wan's trust and this is probably a reflection of 10 years of his apprentice-ship ("He says I'm too unpredictable" - does that sound like someone you can trust?)

    In AotC, he is very critical.

    Anakin deserves his criticism. In fact, Obi-Wan is a lot easier on him that Qui-Gon was on Obi-Wan. Anakin mouths off to Obi-Wan, out and out defies him, disobeys him over and over again, nearly gets Obi-Wan and Padme killed...the list goes on...

    He doesn't listen to Ani, and he doesn't understand him.

    He tries to, Anakin brushes him off ("Dreams pass in time" "I'd rather dream about Padme.")

    Point is, Obi had no business training Ani.

    No one could have trained Anakin. He was damaged goods. He WAS too old and too angry to be trained successfully.

    Of course, Ani is ultimately responsible for his own choices, but if Obi-Wan had been a bit more supportive of him, would he have taken a different path?

    Obi-Wan was extremely supportive - not disciplining him when he could/should have, letting Anakin go off with Padme after his little exposition in the gunship, nearly getting them both killed with Dooku, disobeying him on Naboo, etc., etc.

    Would he have been better off if Qui-Gon had lived and trained him?

    Qui-Gon was very strict with Obi-Wan. Watch TPM again. Obi-Wan does everything Qui-Gon tells him to. Can you imagine Anakin being left alone on the ship to take care of the Queen while Qui-Gon runs off into town? Yeah, Anakin's going to stay put and do nothing. Dumps Obi-Wan in front of the Council for Anakin - hurting and humiliating him when he loves the man like a son. And he doesn't smart off to him. He disagrees with Qui-Gon, but when they are alone. Can you imagine Anakin doing that? Then PO'd at him, Qui-Gon sends Obi-Wan away to wait on the ship. Would Anakin take that? Would Anakin have later apologized for his behavior when he was NOT in the wrong?

    Anakin would have been even worse with Qui-Gon. Anakin was an ex-slave and didn't have it in him to be a Jedi Knight. He never became one - likely - unless III proves ANH wrong ("I was but the learner"). He didn't have to be a Jedi to be the Chosen One. All he had to be was weak enough to be manipulated and useful enough to Palpatine to earn his trust. It didn't take Jedi strength to toss an old emperor down the drain.
  17. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    Anakin would have a better apprenticeship under Qui-Gon Jinn for various reasons. A maverick Jedi like Qui-Gon was a better fit for a late trainee like Anakin.

    Qui-Gon Jinn, unlike Obi-Wan, realized that Anakin was not the typicial Jedi apprentice. He was too old to train, but he couldn't be trained in the traditional way of Jedi training because of his attachments. Qui-Gon would have made a way for Anakin.

    Obi-Wan is not overly critical of Anakin, but untrustworthy of him. If the Council was confident in its decision to allow Anakin to escort Senator Amidala back to Naboo, then why couldn't Obi-Wan just do the same?

    Obi-Wan wasn't ready to be a Jedi master. He basically told Luke the same thing twenty some odd years down the road...
  18. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    I don't think Qui-Gon would do that much better.

    The problem is that regardless of who would have trained Anakin, none of them would have encountered a "rebelious streak" like his. The teachings of the Jedi are designed to limit that problem greatly, which is most likely part of the reason they train from infancy. Also, no Jedi has ever had to deal with their students "attachments" since they are forbidden. Qui-Gon would be flying blind so to speak, just like Obi-Wan is.

    If Qui-Gon had trained him, he would have been the "boss", just like Obi-Wan. He'd have been telling Anakin what to do and he'd have been very strict. He finally said Obi-Wan was ready for the trials at age 25. Anakin is only 20 in AOTC, and he's missing the first 10 years of training. And at age 20 he is upset that he hasn't taken the trials yet. His impatience was unavoidable. I don't think anyone short of Yoda (maybe...) could have prevented Vader.

    Also, I believe that it is irrefutably Anakin's destiny to become Vader. That's what happens. If destiny is the idea that everything that happens is supposed to happen, then it was obviously his destiny because that is what happened.

    The Picnic :eek:
  19. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Obi-Wan wasn't ready to be a Jedi master. He basically told Luke the same thing twenty some odd years down the road...

    Lucas is making up these stories as he goes, and sadly, every time he changes his mind, Obi-Wan is left with outdated dialogue. Those lines predate the existence of Qui-Gon Jinn. If this quote is to be taken literally, then how about "Darth Vader murdered your father?"

    Also, I believe that it is irrefutably Anakin's destiny to become Vader. That's what happens. If destiny is the idea that everything that happens is supposed to happen, then it was obviously his destiny because that is what happened.

    This story is not about destiny controlling people. It's about people making decisions. The Force is a tool, not a puppeteer.
  20. JediLegOBlock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2003
    star 1
    I never really saw Obi-Wan not want to train, or dislike Anakin. He was more wary of Qui-Gon's strong views.

    Personally, I don't think that there is anything wrong with Obi-Wan and his teaching. Anakin seems to have turned into a brat between TPM and AotC. Or was he always a brat?
  21. stacysatrip Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 4
    Obi-Ewan: I don't think that dialogue is outdated at all.

    "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

    Obi-Wan does have an underlying arrogance in the PT. Yoda even tells him as much.

    "His abilities have made him, well, arrogant."

    "Yes, a flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves, they are; even the older, more experienced ones."
    (Insert meaningful stare in Obi-Wan's direction).

    Four examples of Obi's arrogance that stand out to me (although minor):

    "I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the council if I must."

    "You will be a Jedi. I promise."

    "I'll get to the bottom of this plot quickly, Milady. You'll be back here in no time."

    "There isn't time. Anakin and I can handle this!"



    Now granted, his arrogance pales in comparison to Ani's, but it's still there. I think Obi-Wan thought he could take this kid, who spent the first 10 years of his life as a slave with his mother, and train him just like any other Jedi, instead of adapting things due to Ani's unusual circumstances.

    I think that Obi-Wan did finally realize many years later that he had failed in many ways as a master. The fact that Ani "should never have been trained" is beside the point, because he was trained. I do see moments where Obi-Wan did show compassion and caring for Ani, but really those were few and far between. The point is, it just was not a good match. Obi-Wan might have been an excellent mentor, with a different, more conventional student.

    But Anakin is ultimately responsible for his own choices; as much as I love and sympathize with the character, I cannot deny that point.
  22. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    The lines were written with the intention of Obi-Wan discovering Anakin himself, not inheriting him from Qui-Gon. Hence, his motivations have changed. He doesn't do it because he thinks he's as good as Yoda. He does it because Qui-Gon tells him to.

    What it boils down to is this. For anything to be a factor in Anakin's fall, you must, by removing or changing it, be able to stop Anakin from becoming Vader. And as Anakin is the one who ultimately made the choice, and since those factors were set up long before Obi-Wan agreed to train him, then Obi-Wan's training is not what makes the difference. No other Jedi would have prevented it. The factors are not outside Anakin's control, they are all within himself.
  23. Comp625 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    I really don't think it was all Obi-Wan's fault. As an Obi-Wan fan, I plan to defend him on this. First of all, it was Qui-Gon Jinn who discovered Anakin. I like Qui-Gon as well, but he was the one who insisted that Anakin was the Chosen One and should be trained.. After the Jedi Council said that Anakin shouldn't be trained, Obi-Wan agreed with them on this. It's Qu-Gon who still wants Anakin to be trained. Obi-Wan gets into a little argument with his Master over the situation. Even when Obi-Wan apologies to Qui-Gon earlier, his words still imply that he doesn't think Anakin should be trained. Now, we know that a Master and an Apprentice have a close bond..so when Qui-Gon is dying after the lightsaber battle at the end of the movie he asks Obi-Wan to train Anakin. Of course Obi-Wan accepts this to fulfill his dying Master's last request. Now in The Phantom Menace, Obi-Wan is about twenty-four, right? So he takes Anakin under his wing at a very young age himself. Plus he's still a very new Jedi Knight.

    Now In Attack of the Clones, all Obi-Wan tries to do is help Anakin. He tries to teach him to control his feelings and do the right thing. But Anakin had become arrogant and doesn't listen to anyone (Except Padme..can we say whipped?). Anyhow, Anakin disobeys Obi-Wan on many occasions. From not leaving Naboo to attacking Dooku together. Anakin even doesn't follow the directions/advice from the Jedi Council or the Larrs family. Also, remember Obi-Wan doesn't trust Palpatine or any politician, but Anakin trusts Palpatine and Padme (Both Politicians). So I think Obi-Wan knew that they both were trouble..in which they will turn out to be I think.

    We'll have to see what happens in Episode Three between Obi-Wan and Anakin, but right now I think that no matter who trained Anakin, that he would have fallen to the Dark Side. I mean..Qui-Gon stuck Obi-Wan with the job of training Anakin who was told old to be trained, had personal feelings/connections to his mother and Padme and had much fear in him.
  24. DarthWrytard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2002
    star 2
    Stacy: I think we'll have to wait until ep 3 comes out before we know the complete answer to your question, but IMO, Anakin and Sidious are the real villains.

    ps-Sorry about that Obi fic I wrote--my computer ate it. (Stupid !@#%#$^!# computer.)
  25. Hananiah Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2003
    star 4

    Anakin's path as Shmi said was laid down before him. Anakin had free will and it was his choice alone to go with Sideous. Obi Wan is arrogant but then so are most young men, I think he had a great responsibility and he tried his best. It is not Obi Wan's fault because it is *Anakins* downfall.
    I think everyone could have done something-the Jedi, Padme, the Republic but they didn't and so contributed to his slide to the darkside
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