It's all Obi-Wan's fault: is it?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by stacysatrip, Apr 6, 2003.

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  1. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Aankin was destined only to destroy Palpatine. Becoming Darth Vader was not the Will of the Force. And if you believe that it is, then it can hardly be blamed on Obi-Wan, can it?

    That Vader was Kenobi's student was established long before there was ever a Yoda or Qui-Gon--and long before anyone blamed Obi-Wan for Anakin's choices. Lucas was a good 10 years or more away from writing TPM when ROTJ was made; the only accounting he made for the prequels was to assume he'd be making a different TPM from the one he eventually made. He started out with Obi-Wan meeting Anakin first, then replaced him with Qui-Gon. The ROTJ lines reflect the assumption that his earlier drafts would be the ones filmed.

    As for Jar Jar, I'm referring to his being elected Senator, and then saying let's give Palpatine emergency powers. Real smart move, that one.
  2. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Not quite Obi-Ewan. A lot of it is out for interpretation, of course, and hence everything I say is "IMHO":

    Too much good is just as bad as too much evil. The Jedi of the Old Jedi Order basically became surrogate-police men who were dragged into every single conflict just because it's their (self-imposed) job to protect the galaxy. With the Jedi around, the rest of the galaxy - especially the Republic - how to protect itself. And that's wrong.

    Hence, I believe that the Chosen One's prophecy, when it claimed it would bring balance to the Force, meant for the Jedi Order to be destroyed before the Sith were destroyed so a new Jedi Order - one that was neither "light" nor "dark" (or maybe the best way to put it is that it is both) - could stand in the former's place - with balance being restored.

    Remember - if Anakin simply killed Palpatine, balance would not be restored: There would be too much "Light" in the galaxy.

    btw, it would have looked much more like Qui-Gon actually believed Obi-Wan was ready for the Trials and to become a Knight if the suggestion (to the Council) came before Qui-Gon met Anakin.

    EDIT: Urgent_Jedi_Picnic:
    First of all, and no offense intended, I am not wrong. I'm not "taking it" anywhere. Obi-Wan clearly disagrees with some of Qui-Gon's decisions, including training Anakin at first. He does defy Yoda at the end of TPM.

    Keep in mind that these are facts, no spin on them. Looking at those facts, and considering the line "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda," it doesn't seem like the line is incorrect. The line fits in with the facts given above. Are there more facts to be considered? Yes, but none of them get in the way of this line being true. That is the point I am trying to make. I never said that ObiWan trained Anakin because he thought he was as good as Yoda. In fact, nowhere does he indicate that this is actually why he trained Anakin. That is why the line can stand on it's own, without getting in the way of the PT. I agree completely that he trained him because of Qui-Gon's dying wish. However, that does not negate the "better than Yoda" statement.

    Yes, I'm saying that you can't take Obi-Wan's words literally. I'm NOT saying that Obi-Wan wasn't arrogant; just that the blame shouldn't lay on his shoulders because he trained Anakin to the best of his abilities. As far as defying Yoda goes - he gave his (dying) Master a promise; what more do you expect from him?

    Then, there's part where Obi-Wan tells Mace and Yoda that he doesn't think Anakin's ready for a mission of his own - and he turns out to be right. Obi-Wan knows about Anakin's relationship/attitude toward Amidala, and he tried to warn the Council exactly of that, which, unfortunately, they didn't listen to - perhaps it was the Force speaking to them ... but if we look at it from face value (namely, whether or not it led to destruction of OJO), then we can say that they should have listened to Obi-Wan. :)

    Aunecah
  3. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    Aunecah

    I agree. It seems that in AOTC Obi is the one who is concerned/cautious about Anakin's training. He brings up his concerns to Mace and Yoda and gets no advice other that "the will of the force."

    It seems to me that Obi-Wan is doing everything he can to train Anakin well. He's honest with his masters about Anakin's short-comings. He simply did the best he could. I still doubt anyone else, short of Yoda (maybe..), could have avoided Anakin's fate.

    The Picnic :eek:
  4. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    Anakin was destined only to destroy Palpatine. Becoming Darth Vader was not the Will of the Force. And if you believe that it is, then it can hardly be blamed on Obi-Wan, can it?

    How do you know that was ALL "the prophecy" meant for Anakin to do. I agree with Aunecah_Skywalker
    when it claimed it would bring balance to the Force, meant for the Jedi Order to be destroyed before the Sith were destroyed so a new Jedi Order - one that was neither "light" nor "dark" (or maybe the best way to put it is that it is both) - could stand in the former's place - with balance being restored.

    And no, Obi-Wan (or any other jedi) can be blamed for the in-ability to prevent Anakin from falling to the dark side.

    And I know you meant jar Jar's involvment in Palpatine's rise to power. But just as you can't blame Obi-Wan for Anakin's actions...Palpatine would have USED someone else to get what he wanted. He manipulated Padme into the "vote of no confidence"...he used Dooku as the leader of the Seperatists (allowing for him to assume "emergency powers")...Jar jar is as responsible for the creation of the Empire as every other Senator and politician on Coruscant (Palpatine manipulated everyone to serve his purpose)
  5. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Hence, I believe that the Chosen One's prophecy, when it claimed it would bring balance to the Force, meant for the Jedi Order to be destroyed before the Sith were destroyed so a new Jedi Order - one that was neither "light" nor "dark" (or maybe the best way to put it is that it is both) - could stand in the former's place - with balance being restored.
    [/i]

    In that case the Chosen One is truly Palpatine, since he was the mastermind behind all this, and was doing quite a good job before Anakin came along.

    Remember - if Anakin simply killed Palpatine, balance would not be restored: There would be too much "Light" in the galaxy.

    Rmember--if that theory were true, the prophecy would be nothing more than a mathematical equation. And that's wrong. Besides, it would mean that unbalance is restored in Jedi.

    And I know you meant jar Jar's involvment in Palpatine's rise to power. But just as you can't blame Obi-Wan for Anakin's actions...Palpatine would have USED someone else to get what he wanted. He manipulated Padme into the "vote of no confidence"...he used Dooku as the leader of the Seperatists (allowing for him to assume "emergency powers")...Jar jar is as responsible for the creation of the Empire as every other Senator and politician on Coruscant (Palpatine manipulated everyone to serve his purpose)

    My point was that blaming everything bad Anakin does on something Obi-Wan said when the boy was nine makes about as much sense as blaming him for something Jar Jar does, since he acted around Jar Jar with similar (if not worse) disrespect.
  6. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Rmember--if that theory were true, the prophecy would be nothing more than a mathematical equation. And that's wrong. Besides, it would mean that unbalance is restored in Jedi.

    Hmm? I don't understand it - if that theory were true, how would unbalance remain in the Jedi? You don't have balance when you have only light or only dark. It's like a see-saw - to have balance, you must have equal weight on each side, or the see-saw is unbalanced.

    IMHO of course.

    Aunecah
  7. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    At the end of ROTJ, there is only a Jedi: Luke. If all Jedi and two Sith is unbalanced, so is once Jedi and no Sith. And you are defining balance as equal
    numbers, which it is not. Balance is the elimination of the Sith. That is the way Lucas himself has set up these films. This is not about there being 2 Jedi and 2 Sith.

    If balance means the elimination of the Jedi, why didn't Anakin do that? Why instead has Dooku done so much more than Anakin to accomplish this? Palpatine is the man truly responsible for eliminating the Jedi. If that is your definition of balance, then he is your only option for being the Chosen One.
  8. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    I'm NOT defining balance as equal numbers - I'm defining it as "respective weight" (which is why "weight" is italicized) - that's why the Force is NOT unbalanced at the end of RotJ because there is as much bad (*ehemmarajadetomentionone*) as there is good.

    Aunecah
  9. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    #1: Lucas has explained this several times. Balance is restored by killing Palpatine. It's not a question of relative weights either. Balance is stability. Lucas's view is the Force's view. This is why the Force created Anakin.

    #2: You still haven't addressed the fact that Palpatine, being the brains behind everything that happens, including the elimination of the Jedi, and having implemented his plan successfully long before Anakin turned, would have to be the true Chosen One if you define balance as eliminating the Jedi. He is also the one responsible for turning Anakin to the Dark Side, as well as Dooku, who got the Jedi purge off to a good start in the Clone Wars. Anakin is supposed to do what now?
  10. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    1) I still fail to understand what you're getting at.

    2) He isn't the Chosen One because he's evil - namely, he's of the Dark Side. Anakin - who turned from Jedi to Sith (and back to Jedi) - is the Chosen One because he embodies the duality of the Force within himself. He's the Chosen One because whether or not Palpatine is the mastermind behind all this, Anakin is the one (as far as we know) who actually killed all the Jedi. It's also possible that Palpatine wouldn't have succeeded in his plans without Anakin.

    Aunecah
  11. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    1) I still fail to understand what you're getting at.

    I'm getting at this: Lucas explained how and why Anakin is the Chosen One. It is not a matter of embodying duality, or destroying the Jedi. It is about destroying the Sith. If you're going to reject this and say Lucas is wrong, why not just say he's wrong about the prequels and say that they can't truly be the history from which the originals follow, and that there is not prophecy at all? Lucas created the prophecy, Lucas defines it.


    2) He isn't the Chosen One because he's evil - namely, he's of the Dark Side. Anakin - who turned from Jedi to Sith (and back to Jedi) - is the Chosen One because he embodies the duality of the Force within himself. He's the Chosen One because whether or not Palpatine is the mastermind behind all this, Anakin is the one (as far as we know) who actually killed all the Jedi. It's also possible that Palpatine wouldn't have succeeded in his plans without Anakin.


    Palpatine has succeeded without Anakin. He's had two apprentices, one of whom killed a Jedi, and the other who is responsible for the battle on Geonosis, which decimated the Jedi Order.
  12. stacysatrip Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    star 4
    I'm glad to see this thread is generating some in-depth discussion.
  13. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Obi-Ewan:

    I'm not contradicting GL by saying that Anakin is the Chosen One - not Palpatine - because he embodied duality and killed the Sith, am I? I'm NOT saying that he's the Chosen One simply because he embodies the duality.

    As far as the latter goes - Obi-Wan killed Maul, and it is entirely possible that the events would have been FAR DIFFERENT if Anakin hadn't been there. Namely, Sidious definitely didn't think that Maul could be killed by a Jedi - but it happened, didn't it? The Jedi could have found a way to kill Sidious before their Order was destroyed.

    Aunecah
  14. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Obi-Wan killed Maul, and it is entirely possible that the events would have been FAR DIFFERENT if Anakin hadn't been there. Namely, Sidious definitely didn't think that Maul could be killed by a Jedi - but it happened, didn't it? The Jedi could have found a way to kill Sidious before their Order was destroyed.

    I seem to recall that between Maul and Anakin, Palpatine/Sidious had another apprentice named Count Dooku, who started this little conflict called the Clone War, which has already cost numerous Jedi their lives. Also, the Jedi are unaware of Sidious's true identity. They didn't even know of his existence until Dooku told them. Exacltly how are they going to come up with a way to kill someone that they refuse to acknowledge exists? And when the entire galaxy is handing itself over to him on a silver platter? It has also never been established that Vader personally dispatched any Jedi, only that he helped the Empire to do so--but then, so did Dooku. Another Jedi turned Sith. Also intimately tied to Qui-Gon Jinn.
  15. Darth_Tyranusaurus Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2003
    It's actually Qui-Gon Jinn's fault. If he wouldn't have saved Jar Jar Binks, then Jar Jar wouldn't be able to propose the Supreme Chancellor's powers. But then again it could be Dooku's fault for training Qui-Gon, or Yoda's for training Dooku. But, Who trained Yoda?
  16. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Obi-Ewan: Yes, but anything can hapen. The reason for the fall of the Jedi is Anakin - however indirectly Sidious might be connected to it. He may be a political mastermind, but we have nothing to say that he's actually a good dueler of any sorts. (Of course, the way Maul fights ... you do wonder sometimes.) What makes you think he could go on a rampage and kill all the Jedi by himself? He didn't actually manage to eliminate the Jedi Order until Anakin turned. So, I'm saying that it's possible that the Jedi Order wouldn't be destroyed without Anakin.

    D_T: :D

    Aunecah
  17. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "He didn't actually manage to eliminate the Jedi Order until Anakin turned. So, I'm saying that it's possible that the Jedi Order wouldn't be destroyed without Anakin."

    I think it's llikely that Anakin helped ferret out each of the Jedi, and they were subsequently overwhelmed by clonetroopers. Otherwise, Anakin would have spent 20 years killing all the Jedi.

    Then again, wasn't there a rumor about a great, cataclysmic event in Ep.III? Perhaps many of the Jedi were all centered in one place, a la Geonosis (or a smaller prototype D.S. - heaven forbid) and destroyed in one fell swoop?
  18. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    I understand what you're trying to say - I'm just saying that it's possible that the Order wouldn't have been eliminated without Anakin. It could have suffered serious casualties, but it also could have gotten back on track by Yoda or somebody killing Palpatine and whatever apprentice he has.

    Aunecah
  19. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    Anyway you look at it, we're getting into the "speculation zone." None of us can say for sure what specifically causes the downfall/extinction of the Jedi until Ep3 come out. Until then, everyone's opinion is valid.

    I think that Anakin definately has a large hand in the matter. But, at the same time, I assume Sidious had a plan for this (jedi purge) before Anakin was even in the picture. Anyway, my point is "who's to say?" This won't serve the debate about whether or not it's Obi's fault. Maybe we should focus on the tangible evidence.

    The Picnic :eek:
  20. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    I don't think you can simply put the blame on Obi-Wan's shoulders. We might just have to agree to disagree, but Qui-Gon, IMHO, has too tenacious a hold on his POVs and he refuses to listen to anybody else. So, I think that blame falls on Anakin the most, Sidious the next, Qui-Gon the third, the Jedi Council the fourth, Amidala the fifth, and Obi-Wan the sixth.

    :)

    Aunecah
  21. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Maybe we should focus on the tangible evidence.

    The Picnic


    Explain, are you using this as evidence before or against the idea Ben was at fault?
  22. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>Anyway you look at it, we're getting into the "speculation zone." None of us can say for sure what specifically causes the downfall/extinction of the Jedi until Ep3 come out. Until then, everyone's opinion is valid.

    Even my opinion that the Jedi Temple will get squashed by Ned, the giant midichlorian?

    8-}
  23. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    What I mean is, that speculating on whether or not the Jedi would have been wiped out if Anakin had not turned, will not help us decide if what happened to Anakin is Obi's fault. I'm saying let's focus on what we actually have so far in 12456(the tangible), not what may/may not happen in Ep3 (the intangible).

    I've said it a few times in this thread, but I don't think it's Obi-Wan's fault. At the same time, i'm not convinced that Obi-Wan did the greatest job. However, I believe that it is Anakin's situation that caused the problem, not his teacher. He joins the Jedi as a 10 year old home sick boy. No Jedi has ever trained someone in the force from that age, and from scratch. The counsel decided to allow Obi to begin the training, a task that no other Jedi Knights seem to perform, other than Yoda. His mother is killed and he has no reference for how a Jedi should deal with this kind of pain (since Jedi don't allow themselves to experience these things).

    I think there are a great number of contributing factors that make up the recipe for Vader. I do think that if anyone else would have trained Ani, short of Yoda, that this would have happened.

    All beware of Ned, the Giant Midichlorian!!

    The Picnic :eek:
  24. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    One thing to point out here, if it hasn't already been pointed out, is that Lucas has already stated that Anakin falls because he does not take responsiblities for his actions (what actions we will need to wait next movie to find out). This statement, in-and-of-itself, dismisses Obi-wan as the primary person responsible. The better question is, could Ben have prevented it, and if so, how?
  25. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Okay, call me cynical or stubborn (or simply obsessed ;)), but I think that seeds of Anakin's downfall were firmly planted already and there was nobody - short of Yoda, maybe - who could stop Anakin from turning.

    Take Yoda, and he basically is the epitome of all the Jedi - calm, quiet, serene, never getting too emotional, (almost) never losing his logical drives, etc.

    Anakin is basically the opposite of Yoda. That's not to say that his intentions weren't good - but if you were a slave for the first nine years of your life (which also saw numerous pod races), then you would obviously have close contact with emotions like anger, hatred, fear, and a bunch of others.

    Like I said already, I think the reason that the Old Jedi Order was very reluctant in accepting children into the Order, partially, was because people learn the most in the first decade or so of their lives - and what they learned then is often hard to unlearn later. The learning is also more permanent in those years - so it's better if you teach them to control their emotions and remain serene/etc. then than some time else. That could be one possible explanation as to why the Jedi all train under Yoda for the first seven years. ;)

    So where am I getting at? Well, Anakin simply detoured through that episode of Jedi training and became an apprentice - all the negative emotions were already in Anakin by that time, and there was pretty much nothing Obi-Wan could do to save him, especially with the death of his mother.

    Now, if that made no sense - so sue me, I'm working on sleep-deprieved neurons....

    Aunecah
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