It's all Obi-Wan's fault: is it?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by stacysatrip, Apr 6, 2003.

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  1. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    Another good question: How do you teach material you don't know? If you're not familiar with attachments, or heartbreak, or misery, how do you teach someone else how to deal with these things? Every single Jedi would have had the same problem.

    The Picnic :eek:
  2. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    If you're not familiar with attachments, or heartbreak, or misery, how do you teach someone else how to deal with these things? Every single Jedi would have had the same problem.

    Actually, I don't think it's completely correct in saying that a Jedi has absolutely no idea what attachments (or heartbreaks, for that matter) are - Master-Padawan bonds, anyone? As far as heartbreaks go ... just look at Obi-Wan's face in that horrible Council scene in TPM.

    I would say that Anakin's "attachment and heartbreak" problems are just on a different level than that of Obi-Wan's, which is the reason why they couldn't much help Anakin with it, of course. Another reason why Qui-Gon screwed up in asking Obi-Wan to be Anakin's Master - maybe Ki-Adi Mundi, who had several wives and hence probably is better equipped (as far as emotional understanding goes, anyway) in dealing with a Padawan like Skyalker, would have been a better choice.

    Qui-Gon should have known better than to push Anakin on Obi-Wan's shoulder - even if Qui-Gon did believe that Obi-Wan was ready to be a Knight, he should have realized that Obi-Wan might not be ready to be a Master.

    Aunecah
  3. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    I disagree and agree at the same time. Yes, there must be some type of relationship between Padawan and Master. But, considering that the Jedi forbid attachment, it can't be the same relationship we would consider "attachment." So in a sense, we agree. Obi-Wan and the rest of the Jedi simply don't have the proper experiences to advice Anakin on how to deal with his attachments.

    Ki-Adi's wives are an EU construct. Not that i'm anti EU (i'm reading FH Refugee right now), but I remove it completely from George's vision. GL's vision clearly shows that attachment is forbidden.

    Also, keep the context of Qui-Gon's request in mind. He is dying. The council has decided not to train Anakin. He believes it is important to train him. Obi-Wan is the only one there to hear his dying request. So he asks his Padawan to take up a cause that the Council seems unwilling to pursue. He would not ask him to get Ki-Adi to train him because he is under the impression that the council won't allow it (which includes Ki-Adi).

    The Picnic :eek:
  4. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Another good question: How do you teach material you don't know? If you're not familiar with attachments, or heartbreak, or misery, how do you teach someone else how to deal with these things?

    I don't think they do teach you to deal with those things, I think they look at a bigger picture -- they teach you how to control and deal with emotions and distractions.

    Yoda: "Control, control, you must learn control!"

    It doesn't matter what it is, the master does not care if it's a broken heart or the stunning revelation your father is the Hitler equivelant, you control your emotions and let the force guide you.
  5. Bastila--Shan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2003
    star 4
    No I don't think it's all Obi-wan's fault...and in the end Anakin had to decide what he was going to do...but Obi-wan should not have taking Anakin in the first Place that's were I see it being Obi-wan's fault.
  6. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    No I don't think it's all Obi-wan's fault...and in the end Anakin had to decide what he was going to do...but Obi-wan should not have taking Anakin in the first Place that's were I see it being Obi-wan's fault.

    Suppose he had been trained by someone else. Do you think in that case things would have gone differently, or that his emotional problems, coupled with Force training, are a dangerous combination no matter who trains him? I look at it this way: to say that Obi-Wan is at fault, one must also be able to say that another instructor would have done better with him.
  7. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Exactly. The problem was the loss of the only person who loved him for all of his life.


    If his wife and children are to be taken from him in Ep. III, then that will be the loss of the only ones who Anakin feels could love him at THAT point.


    The problem is Anakin doesn't know how to let go. That is not Obi-Wan's fault. It's a combination of Anakin's, the Council's, and Qui-Gon's faults. And let's not forget the manipulation of Palpatine. That played a large role in it.
  8. Bastila--Shan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2003
    star 4
    I think Obi-wan should have been smarter and not have taken Anakin....and I don't think Anakin should have been trained at all so I guess that's the council fault not Obi-wan's....Anakin would have turned to the dark side no matter who trained him.
  9. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    Obi-Wan was never going to turn Qui-Gon down though, he was in a place at the time where he seemed to need to saitisfy his Master. If taking on Anakin was his last wish, there's nothing anybody could have done to stop Obi-Wan from following his Master wish, I don't think. He stood firm in front of Yoda at his knighting ceremony.

    But I agree that Anakin was flawed beyond repair before he was even freed from slavery. He certainly had a hatred surrounding his slavery and the conditions he and his mother were kept in. As discussed already, he had far too strong an attachment to his mother to allow him to disconnect the emotional side of his personality from his decision making abilitiy.

    IMO, symbolically, it was Qui-Gon's fault for altering the will of the Force when Watto threw the chance cube in the podrace hangar in TPM to see whether Anakin or his mother would be freed. He changed thh future by ensuring Anakins freedom at that point instead of leaving it up to fate as it should have been ;)
  10. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    If his wife and children are to be taken from him in Ep. III, then that will be the loss of the only ones who Anakin feels could love him at THAT point.


    He doesn't know he has children. Also, somehow I doubt that being separated from Padme is the cause of his turn; rather it's the result of it. If he's so attached to Padme, he can quit and stay with her rather than quit and join Palpatine and work against everything that Padme stood for.
  11. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    "He doesn't know he has children."


    PPOR. ;) :p Obi-Wan says many things from a certain point of view, but there are no doubts in my mind that what he told Luke about the lightsaber was true. Anakin is married to Padme. I don't think he will have been seperated from her for the whole 2 years of war. Besides, she's a senator. She's right there in the middle of everything. People will know she's pregnant, and Anakin will too.


    "Also, somehow I doubt that being separated from Padme is the cause of his turn; rather it's the result of it. If he's so attached to Padme, he can quit and stay with her rather than quit and join Palpatine and work against everything that Padme stood for."


    AotC proves that their views are drastically different. He already works against everything she stands for. He just hasn't had the opportunity to do anything with HIS views. And I think AotC also proves that he thinks he can still be a Jedi and be with Padme at the same time. So why would he quit when he thinks he can have the best of both worlds?


    No, I think he'll join Palpatine as a result of having nowhere else to turn. He will feel betrayed by the Jedi and by Obi-Wan, and I think it's because they a) expell him, and b) take Luke away to be the "new" Chosen One. I don't think he knows of Leia, but that's not relevent. They will take the pregnant Padme into hiding once Palpatine is declared Emperor, and the Jedi are used as scapegoats. Anakin will hunt her and his future child(ren) down, but will be stopped by Obi-Wan, they'll duel, and then Anakin will be defeated. He'll somehow be led to believe Padme and his children have been killed, and that's why he and the Emperor never really search for them until Luke shows his face again.


    I guess this is all just speculation, but I really don't think anyone can say for certain that Anakin doesn't know he has at least one kid.
  12. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    At the time of his transformation, Vader never knew he was due to be the father of twins. Obi-Wan Kenobi hid the children from the Dark Lord and Vader's master, Emperor Palpatine. Vader somehow discovered that he had a son, Luke Skywalker, but never suspected he had a daughter, Leia, who was secretly taken to be raised by Bail Organa, Viceroy and First Chairman of Alderaan.


    That spells it out for you, unless you want to split hairs over the use of the word twins.

  13. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    First of all, GL has been known to twist things around. Don't take what has been written in the novels or on notes as gospel.


    Second, I fully admit that Anakin doesn't know he is going to have two children. But I really do think he knows that his wife is pregnant. How will he not know? How would ANYBODY in the Senate or Jedi Order not know?
  14. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    Sorry guys but this isn't the right place to speculate on what might happen in Episode 3.

    Please try to stay on topic from now on.
  15. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    I maintain people - definitely not Obi-Wan's fault. If it's any Jedi's, it's Qui-Gon's. Qui-Gon has to know that taking in a person at nine years of age, especially when he already has firm grounding in all the Dark emotions is NOT the best way to go when training somebody with Anakin's midichlorine count. Even if he was adamant about it - what he should have asked for was an extended period of observation - instead of simply deciding that Obi-Wan was ready to be a Knight because Qui-Gon was the only one willing to take Anakin as his apprentice. [face_plain]

    So, is it Obi-Wan's fault? Nope. I would say Obi-Wan's the victim in the whole thing. ;)

    Aunecah
  16. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    I wrote:

    Another good question: How do you teach material you don't know? If you're not familiar with attachments, or heartbreak, or misery, how do you teach someone else how to deal with these things?

    Darth Stryphe wrote:

    I don't think they do teach you to deal with those things, I think they look at a bigger picture -- they teach you how to control and deal with emotions and distractions.

    Yoda: "Control, control, you must learn control!"


    Looking from what you've posted, I think we agree (not sure). I completely agree that what you describe above is the "Jedi Way." So to re-word the question: How do you teach someone to control anger, if you are not familiar with the emotion (on that level). With the infants, they've been teaching them to control their emotions from the get go, which makes it easy. Anakin has emotions that they've never had to teach someone to control. The point of the question was to illustrate that no-one has the proper experiences at this point to show Anakin how to control his feelings.

    Darth Attorney

    I like your analysis. Just to argue a small point, I think that Fate is what caused Qui-Gon to alter the chance cube. It is obviously what was "destined to happen" since that is what actually happened. :D Sometimes fate is an active player, and sometimes we help it along, but it is always in effect, and it is always accurate.

    The Picnic :eek:
  17. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Just to argue a small point, I think that Fate is what caused Qui-Gon to alter the chance cube. It is obviously what was "destined to happen" since that is what actually happened. Sometimes fate is an active player, and sometimes we help it along, but it is always in effect, and it is always accurate.

    To pick on the point that "It is obviously what was "destined to happen" since that is what actually happened." I have to disagree. The only thing that caused Qui Gon to alter the dice roll was Qui Gon's opinion that Anakin should be trained.

    Yoda: "Trained as a Jedi you would have him? Revealed your opinion is."

    Exhibit a) Yoda: "Always in motion, the future." So the future is not set in stone in the Star Wars universe. Just because something happens, doesn't mean that it HAD to happen. (Otherwise the whole underlying theme throughout the saga of the littlest person's ability to have an effect is completely undermined!)

    Exhibit b) Mace Windu: "If the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring balance. You must have faith that he will choose the correct path."

    So Mace seems sure that Anakin is the Chosen One that the prophecy refers to, but still raises the point that even if it's true, he won't fulfil the prophecy if he fails to choose the correct path.
  18. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    So to re-word the question: How do you teach someone to control anger, if you are not familiar with the emotion (on that level).

    Jedi are human (err, so-to-speak), and to be human is to know these emotions. I believe Ben, for example, is familar with anger and grief, based of TPM. It doesn't matter if you're intemidately familiar with each emotion, the idea is control your emotions, regardless of what they are.
  19. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    No, it's not Obi-Wan's fault.

    Now, understand that I don't think Obi-Wan is perfect, the way I've seen some imply, with the essence of their posts being "Poor Obi-Wan, he's a saint and got stuck with an evil bratty Padawan that he should have slapped" (where's the rolls-eyes icon when you need it?).

    Obi-Wan flat-out says in the OT that he was arrogant, and TPM gives proof--I wanted to smack him when he said, "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic life-form?" and then calling Anakin "dangerous" when Anakin was within earshot. However, I do think Obi-Wan was put in a difficult position and should have been given more help from the Council in training Anakin. Obi-Wan did the best he could with what he had, which was an education from being raised in the Temple from birth.

    Anakin was different from other padawans, and needed a different sort of training. I work in a public school, and any experience in teaching will show you that you can't treat all children exactly the same. Yet the Jedi did just that. They agreed to train Anakin, knowing that he already knew such emotions as fear and anger--yet instead of teaching him how to handle those emotions, they taught him what they taught the initiates they had raised from birth, which was that Jedi can't have such emotions. Doesn't do any good when he already has them--and who can blame him--how would you feel if you had been a slave for the first ten years of your life? And if you were told that in order to make your childhood dream come true, you had to refuse to see your mother, the only person who ever loved you, again, and you weren't even allowed to miss her?

    If the Jedi Council really wanted Anakin to let go of his attachment to his mother, they needed to teach him how to do it, not tell him to do it. And I don't buy the "we don't know what happened in the ten years in between TPM and AOTC" argument. I've got pretty good reason to believe that the Council did nothing to help Anakin let go of his mother. For one thing, in his initial session with the Council, Ki-Adi-Mundi looked at Anakin like he was some kind of a circus freak for even thinking about his mother. For another thing, the Jedi were pretty rigid in their Code, and they had never had to teach anyone to let go of an attachment before--they had only had to teach people not to form them. How would they even know how to teach Anakin to let go? Also, if they had taught him, by the time AOTC rolled around, he wouldn't still be dreaming about Shmi and Padme. Ten years is plenty of time even for the most stubborn learner, and somehow I doubt that Anakin isn't willing.

    The Jedi's demise came from, one, Palpatine's manipulation--the fact that Palpatine was smarter than they were--and, two, their own rigidity, which caused them to not see Palpatine's rise to power right under their noses, and also caused them to not see that Anakin needed different training from other Padawans to keep him from turning. The Jedi's arrogance is pretty obvious--just a small example, Jocasta Nu's line to Obi-Wan, "If a planet does not appear in our archives, it does not exist." (Another character I wanted to smack and say, "Hel-LO! Wake up and smell the caf! You guys are not perfect!") Yoda also mentioned this arrogance--and Yoda, as one of the few non-arrogant Jedi, was probably the only one to see Palpatine for what he was from the beginning.
  20. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    Darth-Stryphe

    Okay, i'll agree with you there. For the general emotions, yes. But attachment like Anakin has to his mother? Nowhere close to knowing what that's like.

    SomeRandomNerd

    Of course the future isn't written yet. Of course, we can take actions that will effect the future and cause it to go a certain way. That is without a doubt what Qui-Gon did. And then, I would say it was fate that Qui-Gon would do so. I believe that Fate is proven scientific fact. It's only questionable because it is a concept that we generally apply to the future (which is always in motion as you point out). Apply it to the past, and it's a different story. As I said, whatever has happened is obviously what was supposed to happen because that is what happened. If you get into a car accident, was it supposed to happen? You may not think so, but it did happen didn't it? Lying to yourself and saying it wasn't supposed to happen will not help things in that kind of situation. Just as saying that Qui-Gon wasn't supposed to move the cube is a statement along the same lines. Please understand that I agree that Qui-Gon is the one who performed this act and caused Anakin to be free and become a Jedi. Since it actually happened, I choose to believe that it was fate.

    If fate is simply the idea that everything that happens was supposed to happen, then it's impossible to disprove. And, it does not take away at all from free will. This is why I find the idea of fate so comforting. It helps you move on (instead of dwelling on an idea like "that car accident wasn't supposed to happen, oh woe is me") and it allows free will and independence.

    The Picnic :eek:
  21. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    anakin_girl:

    Now, understand that I don't think Obi-Wan is perfect, the way I've seen some imply, with the essence of their posts being "Poor Obi-Wan, he's a saint and got stuck with an evil bratty Padawan that he should have slapped" (where's the rolls-eyes icon when you need it?).

    Ha! As much as I want Obi-Wan to be perfect, I know that he isn't ( :(). He is arrogant and reckless and precocious. The only thing I agree about in the quote is "evil, bratty Padawan that he should have slapped." Substituting the word "Master" for "Padawan" works also. [face_mischief]

    They agreed to train Anakin, knowing that he already knew such emotions as fear and anger--yet instead of teaching him how to handle those emotions, they taught him what they taught the initiates they had raised from birth, which was that Jedi can't have such emotions.

    Hmm ? I have to disagree here, partially. I agree that they should have done something drastically different with Anakin, but I don't agree that they shouldn't have taught him what they taught every other Initiate. Just because they don't feel anger and everything else with the frequency with which Anakin feels them doesn't mean that they don't feel it at all. As much as the Jedi might wish otherwise, all those "negative emotions" are part of our lives, and it's almost impossible to separate them. You can achieve a state ? like Yoda has ? when you are usually unaffected by any emotion ? including the "good" ones ? but you will never be truly separate from them. So where am I going with this? The Jedi still have to teach their "normal" apprentices how to NOT focus on their negative emotions, which is basically what Anakin does all the time.

    Where the problem arised ? which is something that Qui-Gon should have realized ? is that despite the Jedi's teachings, Anakin simply had too much anger in him to let go. That's not to say that you're doomed forever just because the Jedi didn't find you at a young age. Let's just look at Luke ? Yoda's teachings don't look any different than they would have been if he were teaching Obi-Wan. Did Luke turn? No ? he almost did, but he also had something to hold him back: namely, he realized that he didn't want to become exactly what he was trying to save his father from being. That was something Anakin didn't have and that was something that Jedi probably can't control.

    So, in Vergere's philosophy ? "Is it what the teacher teaches or the student learns" that is important?

    If the Jedi Council really wanted Anakin to let go of his attachment to his mother, they needed to teach him how to do it, not tell him to do it.

    Well, let's say you're trying to teach somebody how NOT to love your mother? How would you do that? Especially when the mother is practically the only person who's close to you ? and you were a slave for those ten years? It's quite impossible ? and impractical to ask that of the Jedi.

    I've got pretty good reason to believe that the Council did nothing to help Anakin let go of his mother.

    I disagree. Even if you go simply by the movies, considering the ease with which Obi-Wan recognized that Anakin was having dreams about his mother, I felt the two had discussed Shmi and how to let go off her a lot of times.

    For one thing, in his initial session with the Council, Ki-Adi-Mundi looked at Anakin like he was some kind of a circus freak for even thinking about his mother.

    Ehem ? that's not what I thought actually. I thought that Yoda was a lot more cruel than Ki-Adi, who simply stated a fact. On the other hand, you CAN'T blame them ? they were trying to see whether or not to get Anakin into the Order. And Anakin did have a lot of feelings toward his Master, and he did have a lot of fear in him ? both of which are, at a certain level, unacceptable in the Jedi Order. What else can you expect?

    For another thing, the Jedi were pretty rigid in their Code, and they had never had to teach anyone to let go of an attachment before--they had only had
  22. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    Darth Stryphe

    Sorry, follow up thought:

    Jedi are human (err, so-to-speak), and to be human is to know these emotions. I believe Ben, for example, is familar with anger and grief, based of TPM. It doesn't matter if you're intemidately familiar with each emotion, the idea is control your emotions, regardless of what they are.

    I've changed my mind and disagree slightly. I'll use cats as a metaphor for emotions. The Jedi know how to control a kitten. The kitten is never allowed to grow in Jedi teaching, as they forbid a certain level of attachment. Yes, Obi knew anger and sadness (as kittens). Anakin has to control a full grown Lion. Ask someone who's trained a kitten to train a lion. I doubt they'd have success. The one on one relationship that padawans go through as an apprentice (or that people have with their parents) doesn't happen until later. Yoda trains them en mass before they go be padawans. So, no, I don't think Obi truly knows the feelings that Anakin has for his mother.

    The Picnic :eek:
  23. Heavenly_Angel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2003
    star 1
    in my opinion, obi-wan shouldn't be blamed at all! it was Anakin's fault that he turned to the dark side. he got outta control and all. obi-wan could not refuse and turn down the promise that he had given to qui-gon before his death, if i were him i would've done the same! he has done enough for Anakin, but it was not his fault for Anakin's downfall. probably Anakin would've become vader anyway whether he was trained by obi-wan or someone else.
  24. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Picnic,

    >>>If fate is simply the idea that everything that happens was supposed to happen, then it's impossible to disprove. And, it does not take away at all from free will. This is why I find the idea of fate so comforting. It helps you move on (instead of dwelling on an idea like "that car accident wasn't supposed to happen, oh woe is me") and it allows free will and independence.

    You can either have fate and destiny, and a universe in which everything is fixed and dictated by the laws of cause and effect, or you can have free will, where the individual has the freedom of choice of their own actions. You can't have both. They are simply not mutually compatible ideas.

    Let's say Anakin looks to the future through the Force, and sees that Greedo is going to shoot Han. Then that's fate, what's destined to happen. It's the Will of the Force.

    Then Anakin decides that he really doesn't want Greedo to shoot first, so he uses his free will and he goes and tells Han what's about to happen. In doing so, he's changed Han's fate. And it's no longer the Will of the Force, because of Anakin's interference.

    If what actually happened was destined to happen, then Anakin wasn't using free will when he chose to tell Han- he was destined to make that choice, and there is no free will. If the original version was what was destined to happen, then it is obviously different from what actually happened.

    (Incidentally, this also explains what the whole "dark side clouds everything" thing in AOTC is about too...)

    And funnily enough, speaking of car accidents, thanks to a taxi driver's free will to turn right about 15 feet in front of my bike on Tuesday, my fate for the next six to 8 weeks involves a plaster cast on my wrist. :mad:
  25. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    SomeRandomNerd

    Wow, that sucks. Sorry, didn't mean to hit close to the mark with that metaphor :D.

    I see your point, but I think you're leaving out one major point. Fate is about what ACTUALLY happens. You're right, until something happens, the future is open ended and the possibilities are endless, and we have direct control over what we are going to do. We make our own choices. And yes, those choices matter (like Qui-Gon's). But, in the idea of fate, it go's like this: Anakin sees Greedo shoot first. It is fate that he chooses to alter that future he sees, and causes Han to shoot first. Obviously, whatever finally happens is what fate had in store. It was still Anakins choice too. There is simply an unseen force that had already properly predicted what Anakin would do.

    You say fate is "a universe in which everything is fixed and dictated by the laws of cause and effect" Well, that's what the universe is. There are laws of physics, laws that govern what is required to create life, and many fixed things that will not ever be changed. Unbreakable laws. Some taxi driver drives recklessly, you get injured (cause & effect).

    Have you ever looked up the word? (and to be perfectly honest, i'm just doing so for the first time here) There is more than one definition, and not all of them focus on a pre-ordained path. The following definition (from the dictionary) is the one I believe in:

    fate: A final result or consequence; an outcome

    Here are a few others from the dictionary, more to your view:

    fate: A fixed decree by which the order of things is prescribed; the immutable law of the universe; inevitable necessity; the force by which all existence is determined and conditioned.

    I say fate is simply the idea that whatever happened was supposed to happen (a past tense statement). That does not imply why things happen. Some things happen because of our choices. Some things happen because of other choices. Some things happen because of planetary forces. But, by the definition I choose to champion, fate is still in play. It is an entity beyond us (and the Jedi). We will never be actively aware of it's presence. So, we make our choices and try to enjoy what we've got. That's just my general philosophy. It allows me to live my life, and make my own decisions, and makes me feel better when poop happens. And granted, that's why the idea of fate came about in the first place.

    Remember, if you believe in the idea of fate, you can't cheat it (as originally suggested by Darth Attorney about the Qui-Gon cheating fate by altering the chance cube). This was my only point all along that spawned this. If you believe in fate, then you must agree that it was fate that Qui-Gon would alter the cube.

    Hope your arms gets better quick. I broke my wrist last year. Right on the joint of the wrist and hand. It sucked. Especially since i'm a percussionist.

    The Picnic :eek:

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