PT It's all Obi Wan's fault

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Gorrie-Wan kenobi, Oct 25, 2013.

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  1. Solent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    Things didn´t get worse because of Anakin´s survival. Palpatine would just have looked for another apprentice and be done with it.

    I do think that OB1 was quite a b******d in that scene though. He could have helped Anakin or put him out of his misery. Instead he turned and got away. Gives a new meaning to Luke telling a dying Anakin he wouldn´t leave him.
    VanishingReality likes this.
  2. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Great comment... I don't think I ever drew that connection before.
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  3. SlashMan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    Windu took away his lightsaber, but he still wasn't unarmed. I think that Windu could see through that, and wasn't willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a Sith Lord.

    Though it is interesting to look at the progression through which Mace changes his mind. The Jedi walk in there immediately looking to arrest Palpatine. After a long duel and three dead Jedi, Mace still intends to arrest him ("you're under arrest, my lord"). But it's when Anakin enters that Palpatine tries to egg Windu on into attempting to kill him, which he succeeds at. And it's at that point that Mace also brings up his political influence.
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  4. SkywalkerSquadron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2013
    star 4
    Yes...a Sith Lord with access to the Force is never unarmed.
  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Well…technically, if Yoda had done his job and killed Palpatine, then Anakin would definitely have died as there would have been no one to save him. At the very least, the "blame" should be shared between them. And it wasn't at all unreasonable for Obi-Wan to believe that Anakin would die. If we look at the Baux score (which measures the chance of mortality due to severe burns) the formula is as follows according to these studies:

    The Baux score was modified using data on 39,888 burned patients using a logistic regression model that showed that age and percent burn contribute almost equally to mortality and that the presence of inhalation injury added the equivalent of 17 years (or 17% burn). These observations suggested a revised Baux Score:
    Per Cent Mortality = Age + Percent Burn + [17 x (Inhalation Injury, 1= yes, = no)]
    Anakin's Percent mortality = 23 + 100 + 17
    This gives him a Baux score of 140

    According to this source from Vanderbilt University: http://studentorgs.vanderbilt.edu/vems/CME-11-10.pdf

    If a Baux score is greater than 130, then mortality is close to 100%.

    This study: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0305417996000150

    concurs. It notes that " All the patients whose Baux score was 130 and above died."

    So…Anakin has a Baux score of 140…he's basically toast (quite literally) and the only reason he survived is likely due to his Force sensitivity and Palpatine's timely intervention.

    Yes, Obi-Wan had a responsibility, but considering his emotional state, I think he fulfilled it to the furthest extent possible.
    SlashMan and VanishingReality like this.
  6. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    You couldn't have just left it at this paragraph, could you? xD
  7. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Science fully supports Obi-Wan in his decision. How could I not bring it up? :p
  8. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    If he did, then my opinion of him has not improved.
  9. Samuel Vimes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    First, what do the Jedi code say about mercy killings? I would imagine that in all the history of the jedi order, situations where a jedi has fought an opponent and struck a mortal blow to that opponent that didn't instantly kill him/her but that will kill them after a while.
    So the opponent lies screaming in agony on the ground and the jedi stands there. Death is unavoidable and the opponent is no longer a threat. Should the Jedi act to put the dying opponent out of his/her misery? Situations like this must have happened more than once so the jedi, who likes rules and codes, would almost certainly have put something down regarding this. And I can't see any reason why the jedi code would forbid a jedi to end agony and misery. Yes the opponent is helpless, but they are dying due to the actions of the jedi so death will come either way. Does the EU say anything about this? Are there situations where Jedi put dying enemies out of their misery?

    In this instance I consider what Obi-Wan did as quite cruel.
    He knew that Anakin will die given his wounds and the harsh environment.
    He would also know that this death will be slow and very painful. He could have ended it but instead left Anakin to a slow, horrible death.

    But that isn't all of it. When Anakin jumped over Obi-Wan, did Obi-Wan deliberately cut off Anakins arm and both legs or was that just an accident? Obi-Wan made at least two slashing moves so to me, this indicates that it was a deliberate act on his part. He could have just sliced Anakin in half and killed him instantly. But for some reason he didn't.
    Obi-Wan had been fighting Anakin and tried to kill him for some time. He also tried to reason with him but after the latest attempt, he said "Then you are lost!" When he warned Anakin about jumping, I think he could see that Anakin would jump and he could prepare himself and plan his move. So if the slicing of an arm and both legs was deliberate then what did Obi-Wan think would happen?
    Given the harsh environment Anakin WIL die if unaided and Obi-Wan would have known it. So he chose to cripple Anakin instead of killing him but he did so knowing that this crippling will kill Anakin regardless but will take longer and be much more painful.
    Then he stands there, seeing Anakin burst into flames and hearing his screams of agony and he still does not put him out of his misery and instead leaves. Sorry, but this is cruel any way I look at this. If he cares so much for Anakin then why give him a slow, horrible death instead of a quick one?

    In other threads people have argued that Obi-Wan can't bring himself to kill Anakin. I do not agree. By slicing of his arm and both legs, he pretty much killed Anakin. If he doesn't help Anakin, Anakin WILL die and it would be Obi-Wans doing. So that shows he is capable to kill Anakin.
    That it would make him feel better by not killing him and ending his pain? Again I can not follow this reasoning. He leaves his friends, his brother to die a slow, agony filled death. That would weigh much more heavily on Obi-Wans mind than a quick mercy killing.

    Of course we know that Obi-Wan can't kill Anakin because then the OT won't work. But this could have been done better I think.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  10. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    I think people are just rationalisting what was merely bad writing on Lucas part. Watching a guy burn to death while declaring he is is his brother and he loves him is pretty sick. Isn't there even a cut line where Obi-wan tells Anakin not to ask for help !
    Vaders comment to Luke about how Obi-wan once thought as you do, does not really make sense now. Though I guess it does put Obi-wan's line to Luke about the good man who was your father was destroyed into a more ironical context.
    Last edited by fett 4, Oct 27, 2013
  11. DARTHLINK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2005
    star 3
    I read somewhere that Obi-Wan wasn't being particuarly merciful. I mean, this was the guy whom Obi-Wan had trained since the latter was a little boy, with whom he soon found comradity and loyalty with in the later years. And how does that boy from Tatooine repay Obi-wan? When Obi-wan defied the Jedi Order when he could've simply listened and had Anakin shipped off to some orphanage in Coruscant?

    By turning to the Dark Side, aiding the Dark Lord himself in wiping out every single Jedi, most of whom Obi-wan likely knew from his own childhood, pretty much helped the Dark Lord destroy the democracy Obi-wan fought for all his life, and even strangle his own wife right in front of him!

    Yeah, if I were in Obi-wan's shoes, forget mercy killing. I would've let that son of a bitch *burn* for what he did. Obi-Wan, less we forget, is a human also, and I think we see a bit of darkness in him also. Anakin wasn't the only one spiraling loose on Mustafar. It's easy for us to say Obi-Wan should've killed Anakin then and there, but put yourself in his shoes. Imagine that your best friend, whom you've known for thirteen years suddenly went bonkers and did what Anakin did.

    Reasonable? Professional? No. Human? Very much so.
    Last edited by DARTHLINK, Oct 27, 2013
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    The previous bit:

    A flash of metal through the sky, and Obi-Wan felt the darkness closing in about them both. He knew that ship: the Chancellor's shuttle. Now, he supposed, the Emperor's shuttle.
    Yoda had failed. He might have died.
    He might have left Obi-Wan alone: the last Jedi.
    Below his feet, Darth Vader burst into flame.
    "I hate you," he screamed.
    Obi-Wan looked down. It would be a mercy to kill him.
    He was not feeling merciful.
    He was feeling calm, and clear, and he knew that to climb down to that black beach might cost him more time than he had.
    Another Sith Lord approached.
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  13. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    I don't disagree with your viewpoint... I think it's safe to acknowledge that he was emotionally compromised during that entire scene - and especially after he defeats Anankin.
  14. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Extremely good point. My impression was that he was still in the mode of trying to deter him, save him... however his dialogue just after that (and actions) really don't prove that initial theory out.... It's really baffling to me as to why he doesn't deliver the critical blow either during the fight, or after as he lies on the bank of the lava river.... If GL really wrote all the storylines together then we can't fall back on "well - he's got to fit into what the OT lies down as canon".... I'm very conflicted on this...
  15. CommanderDrenn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2013
    star 4
    Actually, it's all the fake-queen Amidala's fault. She sent Padme, who met Anakin, which made him turn to the dark side.
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  16. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Not quite. Padme, in her guise as the handmaiden, wanted to experience Tatooine for herself. So it was all on her own initiative. But since they were still running the ruse, Panaka made it sound like fake-Queen-Sabe had ordered Padme to accompany them.
  17. TX-20 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2013
    star 4
    I blame Anakin's absentee father. Mr. Midi Chlorian, Esq.
  18. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    I wonder if he's up to date with his child support...?
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  19. Solent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    It fathered a guy with "Chosen One" written all over body and soul. He was born outside of Jedi influence. None of the council wonders why, just think about his age. Good job guys, way to miss the obvious. By RotS they are considering the Prophecy wrong rather than they might have screwed up. At least in the novelization Yoda ended up realizing of that, more than can be said about OB1.

    And what happened was probably about the less bad that could have been. Ep III Anakin is years away from Palpatine´s level, and if he hadn´t hooked up with Padmé there would have been no Luke. So Palpy wins yes o yes.
  20. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    Guys, we all know Anakin's dad was Watto. Shmi was ashamed, and who could blame her?

    Qui-Gon knew, but didn't have the heart to say.
    [IMG]
  21. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    I think I just threw up alittle bit in my mouth....
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  22. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    [IMG]
    Would've killed the saga faster than I can hit the lock button.
    ;)
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Oct 28, 2013
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
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