Discussion ITT We Discuss Why "Plot Idea X" Will NOT Ruin Anakin's Sacrifice

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Jedi Merkurian, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

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    Something I've head ad nauseum in various speculation threads is "if X happens, it will totally negate Anakin's Sacrifice(TM) in RoTJ" In this thread, we'll have a conversation about how pretty much whatever reasonable* plot point in no way detracts from the events of Episode VI. Post your plot ideas*, and we'll have a go.







    *I reserve the right to not dignify utterly ludicrous plot ideas with a response :)
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Pretty much any new villain would not negate Anakin's sacrifice; IMO only Palpatine returning would.
  3. Darth Claire Force Ghost

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    Dec 21, 2012
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    Yeah Palpatine should stay dead *even though I have a horrible feeling Lucasfilm will revive him because they think the general audience/fans want to see more of the same and ALL of the characters back or that they feel like they can't top him so "Just make him bigger and badder and more powerful than before!" *
  4. clone3131 Force Ghost

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    Ya pretty much any new Sith ruins Anakins "sacrifice".....

    -C
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  5. KED12345 Force Ghost

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    Easy, have the main "bad guy" be somewhat like Benedict Cumberbatch's Into Darkness character. He's an incredibly charismatic imperial loyalist who's main goal is to topple the New Republic and restore the Empire as the head-of-state after the death of the Emperor. He also knows, and plans to exploit in a spectacular fashion Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa's heritage to cause the Republic to loose faith in its leaders and cause all out war to happen by announcing it to the entire Republic when all seems lost as the "final blow."
    Last edited by KED12345, Apr 18, 2013
  6. Eeth-my-Koth Chosen One

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    It's going to be tough. I feel like T3 negated T2. I can't imagine a way where this won't do the same.
  7. Ryus Force Ghost

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    Feb 25, 2013
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    Why "plot idea x" will NOT ruin Anakin's sacrifice?

    Simple, the Mortis trilogy in The Clone Wars implied his destiny was to destroy both the Sith and Jedi and thus 'balance' which he did, yet Luke survived. Hence Anakin's destiny was to destroy both to the point that creation could take place in his wake. It matters not if the Sith survive or even Plageuis (or his teachings) survived, in fact them surviving in a sense is 'balance'.

    As to the Sith or even the rule of two surviving... so what? Now that the 'grand plan' is known by the Jedi the odds of it ever working again is next to impossible. Plus if you take the book Plagueis as cannon due to Lucas known involvment with it, then you know Plagueis himself believed the Rule of Two was at an end and had served its purpose.

    Simple as that really, Anakin's destiny may only have beens as special as the Sith'ari prophecy from the EU (about Bane) in which 'he destroyed the sith, to make them stronger', yet his real destiny was to prevent the Sith of his day's inevitable downfall and preserve the dark side to let it grow powerful again. Though his destiny was nothing more than that. Problem was his legacy was too successful and the dark side became so strong it defeated the light, thus the choosen one rectified that by removing the Jedi of there arrogance that they built up over 1000 years of peace and destroyed the Siths ability to likely ever suceed in that plan again.

    As long as Palpatine stayes dead his destiny was furfilled.
    Last edited by Ryus, Apr 18, 2013
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  8. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

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    Aaaaand here we go. This one comes up all the time. It doesn't matter if there are new Sith or not. The common argument is that people extrapolate quotes from Lucas to mean that the mere existence of Sith is what causes an imbalance to the Force. First off, no it doesn't. Second, even if this were true, Anakin's destiny was the achieve balance in the Force, while it would be up to his descendants to maintain the balance.
  9. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

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    Also, I would argue that it wasn't Palpatine's existence that imbalanced the Force, it was that he twisted the galaxy so badly that he -the Dark Lord of the Sith- was hailed as a savior.
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  10. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

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    And we have a winner! :)
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  11. KED12345 Force Ghost

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    One would think that "balance" would mean equal amount of darkness and light. That's what Mortis and Darth Plagueis implied, anyways.
    Last edited by KED12345, Apr 18, 2013
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  12. Pro Scoundrel Force Ghost

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    I'll go you one further Merk. We really don't know what Anakin's destiny was because we NEVER actually saw/heard what the, "sigh", prophecy said. We just got a lot of vague references and an admission that it might have been misinterpreted. Not a lot to hang your hat on.
  13. LunarMoth Force Ghost

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    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    And I'll say again.........

    Plageuis knew that Anakins destiny was to burn down the house and die in the fire. He also knew not to be home when it happened.

    In other words, no Sith could survive Anakins existence, so in order to continue, a Sith would have to learn to return from death AFTER the prophecy was fulfilled.

    Everything Anakin did had to happen, regardless of what comes after.
  14. EHT Manager: New Films

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    Not if "balance" really means "harmony" instead of "equal weight between opposing sides". As I see it, the Force in general is inherently good, but it does naturally contain a dark side. It's there, it's not going away, and that's fine in and of itself. The problem comes about when someone (the Sith) use the dark side for their own ends, using it in destructive, self-serving ways that make the dark side grow in power and relative "size". Thus the Force is thrown out of balance, and restoring balance means destroying those (the Sith) using it in those ways. Anakin achieved that, and the Force was balanced. So the dark side at that point is still there, but back to its smaller, normal size. What he did was destroy the Sith who existed at that time (himself and Palpatine), not the dark side itself. So that could mean that future Jedi or other Force sensitives could conceivably fall to the dark side and throw things out of balance again.
  15. I Are The Internets Chosen One

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  16. Vthuil Jedi Grand Master

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    The whole "balance to the Force means killing off both sides" thing is also pure extrapolation, except it comes less from Lucas then from standard fantasy tropes. The fact is we just don't know.
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  17. MillionthVoice Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 28, 2013
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    Right there. There is this misconception of what the 'light' side of the Force would be. They never mention a 'light side' in the films, just the Force and the Dark side. Consider what the good guys do with it it's mostly perfunctory stuff like telekinesis that seems to be pretty neutral (sith do it too) and also to counteract what the Sith are doing. Good deeds in themselves are mostly about negating evil (feed the poor, cure diseases, stuff) up to a kind of equilibrium point anyway, so it's already seeking balance. If there were a Light side of the Force it would be using the Force for entertainment, joy or pleasure; and this is something we don't see much in the films (only the bit where Anakin is trying to impress some chick).
    Also, there was WWII and then there was Korea and then there was Vietnam, and we still consider WWII to be significant
    Last edited by MillionthVoice, Apr 18, 2013
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  18. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

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    IMO the imbalance was the Empire itself, terrorizing and enslaving the populace and using weapons of mass destruction against planets. See "It was as if millions of voices cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced". And at the heart of the imbalance were the two Sith who ruled it with an iron fist. The galaxy was imbalanced because so many beings lived miserable, hopeless existences, not because Sith "existed". Sith on their own are insignificant compared to the entire galaxy.

    Therefore, I don't want to see a Galaxy in Chaos in the ST. There is a fair and just regime in place and people can lead happy lives, live all their different dreams.
    Ideally, that state of balance is then threatened by outside forces. Because even if Anakin brought balance, that doesn't mean it can't be challenged or destroyed.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 19, 2013
  19. Vthuil Jedi Grand Master

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    If that's true, then Anakin created the very imbalance he was to fix - and did so, I think, at least partly because of the prophecy.
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  20. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

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    Yes, he could've restored the Balance in ROTS by helping kill Palpatine, but instead he chose power, that evil bastard.
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  21. clone3131 Force Ghost

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    Strictly from a story point of view - the 6 movies were to show Anakin's transition for good to evil and then back to good via redemption. That redemption was to bring balance to the force by destroying the Sith.

    If you continue the story - with a Chapter 7 - and bring back the Sith, you negate the whole purpose of the first 6 chapters. So unless you bring back Anakin, his sacrafice was for nothing - thus negating the whole purpose of your 6 movies.

    If Disney is going to bring back the Sith in a new story line, they should have just started a new timeline - instead of continuing the same story.

    -C
    Last edited by clone3131, Apr 19, 2013
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  22. Lord Chazza Jedi Master

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    "You were meant to destroy the Sith, not join them!" This clearly shows that the existence of Sith Lords causes the force to become unbalanced. Of course the mere presence of Palpatine does not unbalance the force. It is the use of the dark side of the force that unbalances the force. The dark side is there but it should not be used because it corrupts it's users and through those users the galaxy around them is slowly corrupted. Anakin Skywalker destroyed the Sith ending the further corruption of the galaxy and its people.

    As to your second point about it being up to other people to maintain the balance. The force conceived Anakin Skywalker in order to bring balance and then just a few years after balance has been achieved it's all mucked up again. Just think about that for a second. That is the very definition of cheap. The maker of the prophecy obviously believed that the fulfilling of the prophecy would solve all of the imbalance problems therefore if Sith come back then the problems clearly have not been solved. You could argue that Palpatine and Vader were the greatest and most Sith lords and they were well and truly taken care of. The prophecy was only talking about the destruction of the greatest Sith lords. To that I would say that all Sith Lords knock the force out of balance. If there are still Sith or a capacity for more Sith later on then the force has not been truly balanced therefore the prophecy is wrong. If the prophecy is wrong then Anakin's sacrifice is unquestionably cheapened. There are no two ways about that one. You either cheapen Anakin's sacrifice or you come up with new villians. Don't you guys want to see new villains?
  23. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

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    If the Force can be summarized as... "a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us"... I would offer that life being oppressed/annihilated by a practitioner of the same Force which generates its source from life and binded beings is what would have made it "sick", so to speak. Palpatine did things with the Force to the Force, itself, which doesn't neccesarily have to be the case with the motive of another Sith Lord.
    Last edited by A Chorus of Disapproval, Apr 19, 2013
  24. TheManFromMortis Jedi Grand Master

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    This is getting rather heavy. I like it.
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  25. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

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    I don't like the logic that the FORCE (TM) which is connected to all the beings in the universe could be screwed over by mere two! individuals. It takes away all importance from normal people like Han Solo. It basically tells us that only the √úbermenschen matter, no one else. Common people being nothing but playthings for Jedi and Sith is not really a picture I find pleasant. At all.

    Imo the FORCE itself is much grander than its user. It connects everything and everyone. How could a mortal with his limited brain ever comprehend it or even "imbalance" it?

    No, without all his underlings, the collaborators, Palpatine would've been nothing. Unbalancing the force was a collaborative effort.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 19, 2013
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