I've noticed something around here... an undercurrent of anti-American sentiment.

There's quite a bit of America bashing going on around here.

I'm in complete agreement that it is in our rights to criticize our government, and that's a good thing. In many other countries, this isn't even possible. Scrutiny of the governement is definitely the responsibility of the people.

However, constructive criticism is the best way, IMHO, to promote one's ideas.

All this "America is evil" and "They're the great economic, military, and satanic empire bent on world domination" garbage isn't worth mature discussion and intelligent debate.

 

That's because you only notice the bad threads, there are some good discussions in here... somewhere.... would you expect a thread titled " America is the best, we bully the world and are proud of it" in here?

 

I agree, DM. I'm not anti-American by any stretch of the imagination. I am overly critical of the US govt, perhaps, but only because I believe the US Govt. has a responsibility to the world which, IMO, it has wilfully ignored post 9-11.

However, I tend to see this happening: Person makes criticism of US Govt. Overly patriotic American defends it, often without counterarguing (I don't aim this at you DM, you actually do have thoughtful posts), then the person is incited and America bashes.

As you all know, I'm in a minority here in that I actually study and understand the international system and law. I substantiate my claims with facts - like the Guantanamo Bay incident. And I'm both disappointed and disillusioned with the direction the Bush Administration is taking the USA.

There is however, a very prevailant and insular view on these boards, perpetrated by the pro and anti- American factions. Some bash America because they want to, others defend it because they have to. It ends up feeling like this;
"The US does this wrong" - Poster A
"If you are not for us, you must be against us!" Poster B - American
"Yeah, well, America sucks!" Poster C

E_S

 

I see you're point, E_S.

People need to substantiate claims with factual information.


---

Here's a little scenario:

Let's say the US makes a decision to go to war. Isn't it a feasible thing that if you disagree with it to support our troops at the same time?

IMHO debate is perfectly valid and justified at this time before an actual war action takes place. There is a time and place for that, and that time is now. However, I do not want to see what happened in Vietnam to happen again.

----

I especially do not understand Western European anti-Americanism. It honestly baffles me.

 

Let's say the US makes a decision to go to war. Isn't it a feasible thing that if you disagree with it to support our troops at the same time?

Of course it is; look at my government. We're behind a UN, more than a US resolution for this. That doesn't mean we won't be there with you. But you have to accept that now, moreso than ever, the idea of surrendering sovereignty to higher authority (look at the EU) is actually popular. And thus, if the UN's overwhelming reception to a preemptive Iraqi action is tepid, that may mean that the world is genuinely not interested. That doesn't have to influence the US, but maybe it wouldn't help?

IMHO debate is perfectly valid and justified at this time before an actual war action takes place. There is a time and place for that, and that time is now. [/b]

Yeah, well, there are some people you should point that out to. Preaching to the choir, brother!
But debate is necessary and human. And I've stated my case, which is a legal one; that's my background, International Relations and by extension, international law. Which I believe in and understand.


However, I do not want to see what happened in Vietnam to happen again.

It won't here. I mean, for what its worth, Iraq will be a cakewalk militarily, unless Saddam pulls out his alleged NBC warheads of course.

I especially do not understand Western European anti-Americanism. It honestly baffles me.

I can't speak for them mate, except to say; I don't think it's anti-Americanism, I think it's just not pro-Americanism. It's nationalism, pan-Europeanism, and probably criticism.

E_S

 

I don't think it's anti-Americanism, I think it's just not pro-Americanism. It's nationalism, pan-Europeanism, and probably criticism.

Now that makes sense.

Nationalism and pan-Europeanism.

Maybe Europe has been the preeminent world power for so long that they are feeling a tad stiffed that they aren't as in charge of things as they have been in the past. NATO is also losing it's global importance as time goes on. It seems the EU experiment is an attempt to consolidate power into a more formidable political force rather than just the individual Euro nations themselves.

 

I wouldn't say it that way. I'd say that actually, the US is declining as a world power and that Europe is beginning to assert itself in a non-NATO context. But this is best answered by a European, not me. I only did a year of European Union-related subjects.

E_S

EDIT: This is sort of an attitude I'm talking about here:
"Every nation in every region now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

President George W. Bush
20 September 2001

It's not so severe, but it's "Either you're for us or you must be against us."

 

As an American, I don't mind not being involved in every situation that props itself up in the world.

I'm somewhat of an isolationist, unless otherwise indicated. I mean why didn't Europe solve the Bosnia problem? We had to go over there and take care of it before it turned into a powder keg.

I wouldn't say that American influence is declining though, just that natural competition for global power is evident with the wrangling that is going on with the EU and UN.

 

Two things
1. I don't mind constructive critisim (we do it on ourselves quite a bit when outsiders aren't attacking; sorry adding discussable comments to the US) but those that critisize the US on every issue (yes you know who you are), that's something else and there's something wrong when any and every action we take is wrong in your eyes.
2. Would you stand for it if we did the same against your country? If we drudged up past events that happend generations ago every other day, any policy wouldn't be enough for us, we pointed a finger and barked at Europe for totally ignoring South America and it's problems, making them our burden alone. Etc etc etc

Eventually I think it would wear you down till you felt we were anti-European.

Take what you will.

 

I realise I stand as a prime candidate for what you would label a "basher" - though this is simply not true. I admit to being overly critical, but I do believe I communicate and substantiate my position clearly and well. I am quiet capable of seeing good in America, and loved it when I was there. What I do not like is America behaving in a way that is
a) Likely to cause deliberate harm to others, which I think we both concede has been done in the past,
b) Likely to cause undesirable repercussions for you guys, i.e. US Citizens. I often refer to the principle of "blowback", a CIA term that describes the unintended consequences of US policy - the most obvious being 9/11
c) Disrespectful or disregarding the rule of international law,
d) Potentially hypocritical.

I mean, I understand the US position well, and in some cases agree - like the idea of US reprisals in the ICC (Still think the US should sign though). However, I also understand a non-American position, both as someone with close knowledge of the Middle East, and as an allied power.

Finally, I have to say; I can't stand needless bashers either. It's like a bandwagon or something, and I feel it's counter-productive to half the points I try to make. However, I equally despise the blind patriots here; as Ambrose Bierce said "In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first."

Hope that clears stuff up, tenorjedi.

E_S

 

Oh man, I forgot these two:

1) Mate, you can legitmately criticise Australia, and I may even agree with you!
2) "Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world -- and never will." Mark Twain

See "blind patriot" remark.

E_S

 

I probably could critique Australia but they're not in my business so I'm gonna butt out , and secondly sometimes it's not that the problems not there, it's the way people bring it up, the consitency that makes it seem worse than it really is, and that's why you see me and others as a blind patriot.

The whole mountain out of a molehill. Sure guns are a problem but per capita it's not really that bad. Last year I believe you Aussies statsitcally have a better chance of being eaten by a shark than I had being shot in the US. Certain members, (I'm not talking about you) speak with no real knowledge on the subject, just what they hear and see on the TV and that ignorace is what I'm trying to fight. If you call that blind patriotism fine, but it's the ignorance of someone who blantantly has no knowledge on the subject that makes me defend the US. There are times I won't chime in because they know what they are talking about. It's the defacing of the US, trying to make it look bad. Those kinds of comments do not facilitate good and open debate.

Again just something for people to think about.

 

I would be certain that I have fallen into the Uber-Patriot American category when it comes to the Senate discussion regarding the United States. Whether or not that label is a justified one is evident in my posts, there for all to read.

In any case, many times upon coming into the Senate, moreso recently, I feel an overwhelming critical body levied against the United States, which in itself is acceptable. I think that the problem is that many of the detractors of US foreign policy allow the discontent to flow over into every aspect of their opinion of America. I often find that when a valid point is raised to counter a statement made by one of the so called "anti-Americans", the point is not conceded, nor countered, the subject simply moves on to another grievance. I find this to be very disheartening and I have even called out "Anti-American" when I felt it was justified. In many cases, there are posters who have already asserted that America can do no right and that much of the worlds problems stem directly from the United States. That, to me, is an unacceptable viewpoint, and if in defending that position I am labled a blind-patriot, so be it.

 

In many cases, there are posters who have already asserted that America can do no right and that much of the worlds problems stem directly from the United States. That, to me, is an unacceptable viewpoint, and if in defending that position I am labled a blind-patriot, so be it.

It's the view that the US can do no wrong that's an issue for me at least. What has to be found is the middle ground; a large portion not of the world's problems but the US's problems are the US' fault. The World's problems are the world's fault; we need to work together to fix what we want to fix and that's the exact reason why we have a United Nations. Their motto = "It's Your World. This idea that 9/11, for example, was unprovoked is not only totally incorrect it is dangerous in that it ignores the causes of the problems and thus can precipitate new ones.

One thing you have to accept is; it's tough being on top, and as a nation the US is, or perhaps was, on top. Britain probably copped flak as an Empire before the US; and it probably goes back to the Romans or Greeks. But it doesn't mean that any criticism of the US is unjust; I've yet to see you concede somewhere the US is at fault, obihavekenobi. There are some issues I'm actually angry at the US; Guantanamo Bay is a prime example (See My Human Rights thread) of something that I think is utterly disgusting, and I'm surprised the US attempts to justify it.

That aside, I like the Senate boards. For example, Darth Mischievious, tenor jedi and yourself all tend to make points that are valid. It's the outsiders, the people who take perverse delight in being disruptive and/or flaming that ruin it.

E_S

 

I like to point out if you look at the first page of the senate floors and you will notice that there a lot of threads about US policies.

Cut down those numbers and you will notice that the anti-america sentiment will drop...

Another thing, there are a few pro-American bashers out there (I will say no names) and they never add anything to a discussion, but no one is complaining about those users...

 

I have asserted many times in the Senate that I do not agree with many of the United States' foreign policy decisions. That is not to say that I don't find myself frequently engaged in debate on the defensive side in regards to America, I obviously do. As I said, I can accept critique on all levels except the uninformed, self-perpetuating, misguided dogging of a government that a poster simply doesn't like for one reason or another.

And as far as your assertion in regards to terrorsist provocation, I would gladly respond to that with my opinion of the matter in the appropriate thread if you wish. I think that the topic being discussed in this thread is not served by continuing the criticism here as well.

 

"It won't here. I mean, for what its worth, Iraq will be a cakewalk militarily,"

thats exactly what the yanks said before Vietnam, and Korea.

learn from your mistakes

M

 

Anyone else wish to weigh-in with their advice for us "yanks" to follow? Can we not even stop the criticism in this thread? Very ironic.


MalkieD2, the poster you were quoting is from Australia (you may already know that) and I don't think that the military prowess of Saddam Hussein or the percieved ease in which it would be overcome is relevant here.

 

I think creating a thread entitled "I've noticed something around here... an undercurrent of anti-American sentiment" is only going to attract further anti-american comments.

Its like creating a thread saying "Please don't post in here". Its only going to make people post.

malkieD2
(notice the lowercase m)

 

Let's say the US makes a decision to go to war. Isn't it a feasible thing that if you disagree with it to support our troops at the same time?

IMHO debate is perfectly valid and justified at this time before an actual war action takes place. There is a time and place for that, and that time is now. However, I do not want to see what happened in Vietnam to happen again.

i think that some of the negatyive feelings expressed towards individual GIs was counterproductive, in general i think the ability of the peace movement to undermine the war is a high point of American history.

if there's something both unwise and unjust going on, it falls on others to obstruct it at every turn possible.

i would hope that any war in Iraq would be undermined as thoroughly as possible, up to and including some degree of actual sabotage.

we pointed a finger and barked at Europe for totally ignoring South America and it's problems, making them our burden alone.

oh, yeah, we did such good things in South America *rolls eyes*

 

Well diz maybe not you but a few of my friends were in Belize last year doing humanitarian work for a week after the disasters there.

I don't remember Europeans remarking about it or sending aid. Hmm

Anyway back on track.....

 

This is ridicilous really. I've noticed repeated statements of "Europe is weak" "Europe only thinks about itself", "EU is pure evil, the second coming of the third reich..." but do you hear me or any other Europeans whine about anti-Europeanism every week?

For gawds sake, learn the difference between critism and America bashing. The only one whome I've seen using the "America is the great Satan" line is rsteling, you're not going to tell me he's anti-American are you?

 

Read some of what Ender Sai said, and Tenor Jedi, they brought up valid points.

But tell me, how many times have you opened the Senate Floor page and found nearly the entire front page dedicated to everything the EU has done wrong? How many comments have you read about the EU not being able to do anything right? As a proud American it gets disinheartening to see so many comments go against my country, but to this you are blind.

 

How many *threads* have you seen about the EU at all? You ask people opinions on US related matters, when you don't like the opinions they are *anti-American*. Sometimes it seems that posters on here think that everybody here is American.

Hmmm....?

 

I beg your pardon, most of the threads that are against the US position are not started by Americans. The opening argument usually starts with standing against the US position on certain topics. Then here comes GI Joe or the people who cant find anything nice to say about the US what so ever and we have a Senate Floor War.

Though dont tell me it wouldnt make you made to come here one day and find nearly every topic on the first couple of pages opposing EVERYTHING the EU does. Im sure you'd more than likely will defend the EU position. When the shoe is on the other foot, you learn alot more.