I've noticed something around here... an undercurrent of anti-American sentiment.

On a more serious note: Carter,Begin,and Sadat in (I know I mispelled, here)Sept. 1978 interrupted the premier of BATTLESTAR GALACTICA!

 

Lady Liberty comes with a blindfold and whip these days!

I love that!!! LMAO It's so true!

 

This is the old anti-America thread. If a new one is necessary, there can be another one made. Otherwise, stick with this.

 

I am feeling particularly anti-american this week because I've found out their tax laws are racist

yes, you heard me correctly - RACIST !

why ?

because foreign people (like me) in the US are forced to pay more Federal and State Taxes than Americans. Purely because I am new to the country.

They have made this test called 'The Substantial Presence Test', which discriminates against people who are not from the US.

nice

Now, if you are American, and you go to my country (the UK), then you are subjected to the exact same tax laws as everyone else.

malkie

 

I am usually the US's biggest critic, but I don't see this issue the way you do, Malkie. If I understand, you're saying that a non-citizen living in the US pays higher income tax, right?

If it's applied to everyone who's living in the US but isn't a citizen, I don't see what's racist about it. When I got into the publicly funded University of California, I was a resident of another US state. Therefore, they charged me around $17,000 for my first year while California kids had to pay only about $4,500. They didn't do this because they hate out-of-staters; they did it because those in-state kids (or their parents) had already paid a lot in taxes over the years toward the University's funds. My parents and I had paid the University of California nothing.

The minute you arrived in the US, you had access to our emergency services (police, fire, etc.), our educational facilities (if you or your child are of public school age), the postal service and other tax-funded services. You had paid nothing into those services in the past, just like I'd paid nothing toward the University of California. So you're getting hit extra, like I did when I started attending UC. If you become a citizen, like I became a California resident, you'll be charged the same as anyone else.

If the UK chooses not to put visitors through those extra payments, that's very nice of them. But I daresay they can afford such generosity more easily than the US can - last I heard, the UK charges its own citizens the highest tax rates in the world.

 

thanks TreeCave thats certainly a new way of looking at it that I didn't think of before.

Its nothing to do with citizenship though. Even if I was a citizen (which I'm not), I'll be forced to pay higher taxes until I have been here for three years (at which point I 'pass' the Substantial Presence Test).

Even after three years there is no way I'll have 'caught up' with people who have been here many years, so I'm not sure if that arguement really stands up.

Its more that they expect people like me to only be here for a few years, and tax me higher because they know they can get away with it.

malkie

 

Give me a break. I am so damned tired of immigrants coming and demanding all of the benefits of being a citizen without putting jack into the system. Big whoopy-doo you have to pay higher taxes the first three years you live here. You get EVERYTHING else handed to you on a silver platter. You want to hear about racist immigration laws? Move to Japan where they actively discriminate against foreigners because they have no EEOC, etc protecting the rights of non-citizens. We invite you into our country to make a life for yourself and all you do is bitch and moan about taxes and call us racist? Well maybe I am tired of my taxes going up and up to pay for immigration. And yes, we in CA do foot the bill for mass immigration into our state.

<seriously annoyed>

 

Even after three years there is no way I'll have 'caught up' with people who have been here many years, so I'm not sure if that arguement really stands up.

Its more that they expect people like me to only be here for a few years, and tax me higher because they know they can get away with it.


Either way, it's the same principal as the University of California applied to me as an out-of-state student - I only paid that huge fee the first year, but it was equivalent to about 2.5 years of regular tuition. So I don't think it's biased, regardless of whether it's a good idea or not.

 

You get EVERYTHING else handed to you on a silver platter

What exactly I do get on a 'silver platter' that you had to work for ?

malkie

 

Think of it like this, Malkied2.

When you join a physician group, you start at the bottom of the ladder. You work longer hours and more weekends for less pay. As your seniority grows, so do your benefits.

I don't see this policy as racist so much as I see it as an initiation to the 'club'. That may be wrong in and of itself, but I wouldn't slap it with the label 'racism'. If anything, immigrants to the US tend to have more advocates within the government than american citizens at times.

Peace,

V-03

 

so, bascially what you are telling me is that I am a second class citizen because I am new to your country. Hence I am being discriminated against purely because I am new.

 

Let me see, I've been paying taxes ever since I started buying things with my own money. My parents, my parent's parents, etc have been doing the same. Being a natural born citizen, my relatives and I have been putting into a system long before you arrived.

You can here legally or illegally and be entitled to emergency services such as police, fire, and ER. You can also get a free public school education for grades k-12, in-state resident tuition for college if you meet certain criteria and social services specifically designed for immigrants including welfare programs and health care programs. Oh, and if you happen to break a law, you get a lawyer, a trial, and accomodations at the nearest prision. Wow! You get it all at the expense of the state/American tax-payer.

And you have the nerve to complain about paying a little extra for a piddly three years?

Boo-hoo.

If it sucks so hard for you, go home.

 

I'm new to this kind of discussion, so maybe this'll be my only post here. Everything I know about the U S of A is from these sources:
Uncle Sam by Steve Darnall and Alex Ross

Fastfoodnation by Eric Schlosser

Rogue State by William Blum

And finally, 8 hours ago I saw the movie Bowling For Columbine by Michael Moore. (I insist that everyone sees it!)


I admit that I've had "one sided" sources. There is so much that is wrong and terrible about the US. And there is so much that is good and worthy to aspire for. I do not think that this Brief History of America is very accurate. Please God, tell me it isn't!

Oh, and I'm NOT anti-america, I'm anti-tyranny.

 

so, bascially what you are telling me is that I am a second class citizen because I am new to your country. Hence I am being discriminated against purely because I am new.

If you want to call it that, okay. Like Vaderize said, a new employee could call himself "second-class" because he's paid less for more work.

Malkie, you can also never, ever run for President of the US, no matter how loyal a US citizen you may become. Is that racist? I personally think it's silly, but the intent was to protect national security, not to keep icky foreigners out of office.

Even if it IS a policy intended to dissuade people from immigrating here, I don't see anything wrong with that. Most nations have laws limiting immigration. We've already got the Baby Boomer generation threatening to crash our social systems - there are only so many immigrants those systems can support without crumbling.

INHO, you should compare the benefits against the losses. Are you actually paying more in taxes now in the US than you did in the UK? Because of the very big gap there to start with, your extra taxes would have to be heavy indeed to make US taxes even equal to UK's. And if you are actually paying more, are you making more money in the US, or less?

EDIT: Chibiangi, your points are good and well-taken, but I think your tone may be coming across a bit meaner than you mean it.

 

That's 'coz I'm a big mean American, Treecave

In all seriousness, I do not mean to bag on malkie personally. It's just that I am sick to death of footing everyone else's bills and then encountering this "you owe us attitude". It's BS. It makes me mad.

<grrrrowllll>

 

I love the irony of the anti-immigrant feeling prevalent in America.

 

Yes, it's just so anti-immigrant to expect that immigration laws are obeyed and that immigrants contribute to America. How dare those Americans have such expectations! Oh and it's ironic too, since everyone outside of Africa is an immigrant. Let's just not have any borders and let people run around willy nilly because we're all immigrants, aren't we?


</sarcasm>

 

I believe a distinction can and should be made between legal and illegal immigration. The distinction is this: the first thing illegal immigrants do is break our laws, specifically the laws regulating immigration.

I personally have nothing against immigrants; I just believe that an organized system of immigration is absolutely necessary.

 

I think its important to highlight that I am not an immigrant. I am a vistor, which means I am certainly not entitled to some of the services you mention.

You can also get a free public school education for grades k-12, in-state resident tuition for college if you meet certain criteria and social services specifically designed for immigrants including welfare programs and health care programs.

no, I'm not entitled to any of that at all. Before I arrived here I had to have medical insurance coverage. Without it I would not have been allowed into the country, and if I stop it I will be sent home on the next plane at my expense.

I would not be entitled to bring a family with me (not that I have one) so the schooling is not an issue.

Oh, and if you happen to break a law, you get a lawyer, a trial, and accomodations at the nearest prision. Wow! You get it all at the expense of the state/American tax-payer.

again, no I don't. I would be sent home on the next plane at my expense. oh, and I *am* a tax payer, hence my contribution to this thread. I'm sure obviously if I murdered someone then your might want to keep me here, or infact have me executed (which I realise is a significant expense to you, but I seriously doubt this is likely to occur).

And you have the nerve to complain about paying a little extra for a piddly three years?

actually its significantly higher

Are you actually paying more in taxes now in the US than you did in the UK?

This I am quite unsure of as I'm not familar with the exact tax rates, and the exchange rate. I'll get back to you on that one.

However, the cost of living here (other than gas prices) is significantly more than the cost of living in the UK.

If it sucks so hard for you, go home.

No, it doesn't suck being me. Infact, it rocks to be me my point is that its unfair, thats all - and this is a debating forum

malkie

 

Molotov, most of my best pals are immigrants. I live where I do in the US specifically because it's full of legal immigrants.

I agree with Bubba - legal is great, illegal sucks.

But beyond that, it would be great if the US could just throw its borders wide open to the world, but no nation has the unlimited resources of the world to do this. If parents choose not to adopt more kids than they can afford to feed, would you say they are "anti-kids"?

Now, maybe we're being lied to and the US actually could support a few more million immigrants each year. Perhaps if we booted out the illegals, the money spent on their social services (which is outright theft, and boy do they know how to get welfare, tax credits, etc.) we could more easily sustain a healthy rate of legal immigration. But if the stats we're given are true, we just can't take everyone who would like to come without some of our systems totally crashing. Social Security is already doomed unless someone comes up with a plan.

 

chibiangi

"Yes, it's just so anti-immigrant to expect that immigration laws are obeyed and that immigrants contribute to America. How dare those Americans have such expectations!

I believe the point was that legal immigrants (and working visitors) to the States are discriminated against, not that illegal immgration raises domestic issues or that immigration needs control.

 

I have been known to be a critique of American policies and American related issues from time to time. I wouldn't say i'm a basher by any stretch of the imagination, but i think sometimes people may see me that way. I'm not the most intelligent poster, my posts are never incredibly long, but i do have genuine concerns and viewpoints which i must and do express!

It's just... sometimes hardcore patriot americans on the board can be so incredibly... urgh!! Like, the millions of people that protested against the war, every last one of those people are, apparently, "hypocrites" and "anti-americans". Anti-American??? Most of these people aren't even American!! What do you expect??

Just completely ignore the fact that in Britain, and even here in Ireland, for at least a full month after 9/11, American flags could be seen everywhere! These people aren't anti-american, but the way some people here carry on, its like the whole world is expected to be pro-american. Should we be patriotic about a country we don't even live in?? The war protestors have genuine concerns, and genuine opinions, and i won't have the lot of them be brought down to nothing but labels.

 

I believe the point was that legal immigrants (and working visitors) to the States are discriminated against, not that illegal immgration raises domestic issues or that immigration needs control.

Yes, but I was arguing that nations have a right to treat citizens of other countries differently than they treat their own. Frankly, I think you should be glad if a country ALLOWS you to work at all while you're there - some make it far more difficult than the US does to get the permits you need, so you can't go there because you may not be able to earn a living.

Malkie, I asked my mother (a tax preparer) about this extra tax you're paying, and she's going to look into it. She's never heard of it, but she retired in the mid-90's, so it may be a new thing. If you can provide a link to some info about it, I'm curious. It would be a much better informed debate if we actually had the tax law in front of us, or a summary of its major points. I'm also curious to see which Congress/President passed it.

 

I went to see a Tax accountant person the other week, she is a specialist in dealing with foreign visitors, and only deals with people like me. (she's not IRS or anything)

It was her that explained the tax rules, and that I'll be paying more because I'm a non-resident.

I have a fantastic publication infront of me here with all the details, but thats not much use to you is it ?

I will say however, that I complete a different tax return form than everyone else - perhaps if you downloaded that and compare it against whatever forms you fill out to get an idea. I complete a 1040NR. The important bit to notice there is that I am not allowed to file for deductions.

malkie

 

TreeCave

"Frankly, I think you should be glad if a country ALLOWS you to work at all while you're there"

I'm in the UK, where once you start earning a living, the government decides that *you* are earning that living regardless of who/what you are, so I can't agree with your statement at all.