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Saga I've Watched The Entire Saga In Order

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by EternalHero, Aug 18, 2014.

  1. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2009
    TCW is not a 60 hour SW film, it's a TV series (which is why I said the second statement was false.

    Regarding the first statement, "originating stories" and "having final word" are rather loose terms. Throwing off a few (not all) general ideas for the writer team to develop and watching the finished episodes and say "that's great, guys" doesn't mean he is the maker of the series.

    What he did in Empire and Jedi is rather different (and well documented thanks to the Making of books). He personally created and developed the story, wrote several drafts, personally supervise and correct subsecuent drafts, personally oversaw the whole production, helped the director on set, directed second unit, supervised the editing (and in Jedi re-edit the whole movie himself), attended the spotting and scoring sessions, attended the sound mix, request specific shots and changes... Did he do any of that for the TV series?
     
  2. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    I agree that canon is a very loose term (and personally, I don't believe in any canons). But I didn't say anything about canon, maybe you misread what I said?
     
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  3. Seagoat

    Seagoat PT and Music Section Dictator star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 25, 2013
    Were you not implying something about George's involvement solidifying its place in the saga?
     
  4. EternalHero

    EternalHero Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 17, 2014
    oierem Thanks, you've stated and clarified your position clearly; unfortunately, to debate it further would be to derail this thread. If you care to you can PM me if you want to discuss the matter further. As I posted earlier, this viewing order takes the official Lucasfilm position on what constitutes the Saga for granted, the purpose here is not to establish "canon" but to examine the story as a whole. I'd also like to ask others to refrain from turning this into a canon/not-canon thread. The object here is to study how watching the whole Saga differs from watching it in part.

    Seriously, I wasn't expecting any controversy. And I've been too busy to post anything of substance. Hopefully Sunday. I still have a lot to cover.

    I'd like to hear more from the few of you who have also done this!
     
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  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    What does it matter if he did or not? The fact is that Lucas came up with the idea for an animated series, laid down some ground rules and then pitched story ideas as the series went on. Because of his involvement in that capacity, the show as deemed as part of the official lore. Both before he sold his company and afterwards. You don't have to like the show, but it is part of the official lore and not spin off material that he had a limited involvement in.
     
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  6. Seagoat

    Seagoat PT and Music Section Dictator star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 25, 2013
    Well I'm not debating canon, I'm debating whether or not it belongs in what we call "the saga"
    I'm not saying it's noncanon simply because it contradicts a few things from the eps, I was just using those as examples of why in my opinion it doesn't belong. Plenty of things in the eps contradict each other from time to time
     
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  7. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    I wasn't saying anything about whether the TV series should belong to canon or not (I simply don't care). I was just saying that the statement about George's role being the same in the TV series and in Empire/Jedi was not correct. Each of us can decide if that's important or not.

    I'm really sorry I contributed to derail this thread: you are absolutely right, that's not the topic, and that's why I decide not to post in this thread to begin with. I just wanted to clarify a couple of your statements, but I will stop posting about it (I'll be glad to PM you if you care) and hopefully the thread will be redirected towards its original purpose.

    Sorry... and good luck! ;)
     
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  8. Seagoat

    Seagoat PT and Music Section Dictator star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 25, 2013
    Well, regarding its place in the saga and George's involvement....
    I have heard that he personally wrote a few episodes of TCW. Is this fact or bogus? I know that he suggested some ideas, like revived Darth Maul and Moraband, but not sure about actually writing them

    And seeing as this is the saga section and not just TCW....

    What is his involvement in TESB and ROTJ as compared to TCW? I know that he had a substantial influence on ROTJ, especially in the post-editing department. He was more or less a co-director lol. TESB is the one that he's had the least to do with until the ST now (though he is still involved)
    I'm not quite sure of how much he even wrote for TESB and ROTJ, honestly. Same for the TCW film

    Wow that was a scatterbrained series of questions
     
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  9. EternalHero

    EternalHero Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 17, 2014
    Seagoat I have an an article somewhere (SW Insider) where one of the CW writers states that GL rewrote almost all of Anakin & Obi Wan's dialogue! GL wrote the first draft scripts (unless you count the incomplete ESB L. Brackett script) for both ESB & RotJ then handed them over to Kasdan for polishing. The Rinzler Making Of books are really great sources of info on that subject. GL used almost the same process for Young Indy as he did for TCW: created the stories, workshopped them with writers, then made changes to scripts when they were done and oversaw production. He was probably more intensely involved with YI because he was younger and at the time it was the only major Lucasfilm production. For YI he wrote 8-10 page synopses for each episode. I know that he rewrote Carrie Fisher's script for the Mata Hari episode himself because she said so in an interview, she was pretty annoyed!

    Hoping Sunday I can really make some serious posts, just been super-busy with real life this week.

    Thanks for the support & cooperation. This is an arbitrary (to me) demarcation (movies/TCW) that needs to be eroded away. The fact is that due to the advent of streaming content, the culture of "binge watching" and the existence of sites like Wikipedia etc. the nature of the audience has changed. I've noticed that even with book series if a blogger/vlogger does a reading or re-reading they will put a prequel first and slot in short stories etc. It's inevitable that an increasing number of first-timers will actually experience Star Wars this way and for me that opens up a whole new way of analyzing and appreciating the Saga, especially the "George Lucas Era" when he was really authoring it onscreen.

    This all reminds me of War & Peace. Tolstoy originally serialized W&P in a newspaper. It was a runaway hit, readers could not wait to get each new installment. When it came time to bind it into a book he had second thoughts about it and started adding and changing, completely altering the story in fundamental ways. Not everyone was pleased and he came in for some heavy criticism. Recently someone even published the original serialized version as "The Original War & Peace"! But for most people W&P is the book version, because that was what was mass produced, translated and what is available to read.
     
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  10. Imperial Reject

    Imperial Reject Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 6, 2012


    what was your method? a movie a night? one season of TCW on the weekends?
     
  11. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Will books and comics be added?
     
  12. EternalHero

    EternalHero Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 17, 2014
    Imperial RejectReject I watched Episode I & II over consecutive weekends then I watched TCW according to arcs. I tried to keep it spaced apart so I could follow the story and not get swamped. There was no schedule though. I took a break in the middle to refresh.

    Force Smuggler That's a good question and right now I have no position on that. "Choose your battles" as they say; I have my hands full just presenting the idea of taking the PT, TCW and OT as one epic narrative!
     
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  13. Imperial Reject

    Imperial Reject Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 6, 2012
    EternalHero what is the chronological order of TCW I know there's a list somewhere but I'm too lazy to find it lol
     
  14. EternalHero

    EternalHero Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 17, 2014
  15. Imperial Reject

    Imperial Reject Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 6, 2012
    thanks and sorry for being lazy lol
     
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  16. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009
    EternalHero - OK, if you do wish to include TCW as a part of your approach to 'The Saga' for the purpose of this discussion, that's fine, but bear in mind that not everyone will agree that it's the case. Like many, I consider it tangential to the actual episodic Saga, or an off-shoot, much as the upcoming spin-off films will be - similar to how The Hobbit is not actually a 'part' of The Lord of the Rings, or The Tales of Dunk & Egg are not a part of A Song of Ice & Fire, despite being set in the same respective universes and being directly connected.

    That's my opinion, of course, just as you have yours - but I've yet to see anything that states that the actual narrative referred to as the 'Star Wars Saga' includes TCW, although TCW has been officially elevated to the level of what is usually referred to as G-canon (in the link you provided, which only refers to 'the canon' and 'the immovable objects of Star Wars history', it doesn't mention the 'Saga' once), hence why the Saga forum refers to Episodes I through VI, and eventually the upcoming Sequel Trilogy of Eps VII-IX (which we'll have to deal with soon enough).

    TCW content is fine to include where relevant, to an extent, and can perhaps be considered somewhat more official than elements of the now-defunct EU, but the specific focus in Saga is upon the films, regardless of current canon.

    And Force Smuggler, books & comics (other than the adaptations of the films) are strictly EU. Permitted when relevant, e.g. providing a possible explanation for questions left completely unanswered by the films, but discussions about Grand Admiral Thrawn, the KOTOR era and so on belong in the Literature forums.
     
  17. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Darth_Nub I was asking EternalHero if he was including the books and comics in his run through of the Saga. I know those are usually in the Literature section but isn't everything canon going forward? Seems like a waste not seeing everything in a run through.
     
  18. SarlacsDinnerParty

    SarlacsDinnerParty Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2014
    I have watched it in orders 1-6 many times ;) Yes, TCW ad alot to the PT.
     
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  19. Allana_Rey

    Allana_Rey Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I've actually never heard a SW marathon...I need to.
     
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  20. EternalHero

    EternalHero Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 17, 2014
    I'm pressed for time but I want to try and get this down, in broad strokes at least:

    The importance of Ahsoka to the Saga.

    According to Lucas, he regretted not being able to show the Clone Wars (inevitably skipped over between episodes) or really show Anakin being a "normal person" in the PT because it was so focused on his rise and fall. Those were his major motivations for doing the series. Ahsoka was created as a way to show Anakin "settling down" between AotC and RotS, to show that there was a period where he was having at least some working relationships with people.

    Ahsoka accomplished much more, in my opinion. Just a few thoughts:

    1. The introduction of a Padawan definitely achieved Lucas's goals for Anakin. With Ahsoka we see not only a more "settled" Anakin, but we see other sides of his personality, we even see how traits in other circumstances that are negative can actually be positive in another circumstance. With Ahsoka, Anakin shows a sense of humor, the ability to take himself less seriously and even make light of his reputation, an ability to give affection without expecting anything in return, and we also see that Anakin has indeed absorbed the teachings of the Jedi and that he takes those teachings seriously (although he inevitably puts his own spin on things) and he actually passes that wisdom and knowledge along to a student. Like Obi Wan in the "movie" the audience also thought, "Huh? Anakin as a teacher? No way!" By introducing Ahsoka it gave the audience a chance to be surprised by a character they thought they already knew. More tellingly, Anakin only chases after Ahsoka once after she leaves the Jedi Order. This is the only time Anakin passes the test of non-attachment in the Saga. Ahsoka's last scene finally answers Yoda's question in the "movie", whether or not Anakin can let go. He can, it's not easy for him, but he can do it. That makes his eventual fall more tragic.

    2. Padwans get short shrift in the PT. Obi Wan is "ready to face the trials" in TPM, we meet the grown up Anakin when he's on the cusp of Knighthood and all we see of other Padawans is a class of children training under Yoda the victims of Anakin's attack on the Jedi Temple. Through Ahsoka's eyes - both as student and later as student-teacher - we understand more about the Jedi Order and what the process of becoming a Jedi is like. This material finally explains the reasoning behind initial decisions to not train Anakin and Luke. Children are accepted into the Order at a very young age, before they have developed a conscious, psychological bond with their family. They are taught the precepts of non attachment from a very young age, they are steeped in a culture of non-attachment. Even so, TCW (again, through Ahsoka-centric episodes) shows that these are hard lessons that take many years of reinforcement to learn and put into practice. What was missing in Anakin and Luke was the foundation to build on. At the same time, through Ahsoka's interactions with Anakin, Plo Kloon, Obi Wan and Yoda we get to see that the Jedi are not Vulcans with Lightsabers. They do show feeling and can be loving, supportive, understanding and comforting. If you only watch the PT the impression you get of the Jedi Order is only of a strict/restrictive religious order; The Clone Wars shows us that the Jedi were more like an extended family, united by beliefs and purpose. Like any family, they resent interference from outside that circle and sometimes their attempts to address problems with "family" members internally only leads to more problems. But Ahsoka at least allows us to see a softer, warmer side to the Order.

    3. A question Star Wars fans have often asked after Return of the Jedi is: what kind of father would Anakin have made? Ahsoka allows the audience to have part of the answer. Anakin actually has good mentoring abilities; he's able to draw from his own tumultuous childhood to understand and sympathize with the young. He's able to let his student try things her way and gains elf confidence. He praises success but also disciplines when necessary. We see more real tenderness between Anakin and Ahsoka in TCW than we get to see between him and Padme in the movies. It's possible to imagine that without the presence of Palpatine, if things had been different, Anakin might have eventually left the Jedi Order, resolving that conflict, and been a good father. Having children might actually have helped him deal with his issues, as having Ahsoka as his Padawan sometimes did.

    4. Lastly, Ahsoka provides a mirror for Anakin. She is his student, she is learning his ways, at the start she imitates him, even towards the end she puts him on a pedestal. But in the end, having had the grounding Anakin never had, she is able to see right from wrong more clearly than her Master, she is able to see past her emotions, and she ultimately makes better value judgments. You can still see Anakin's imprint on her but in the end she has the honesty to leave the Jedi Order instead of staying when she's unsure. Anakin stays and his doubts become fear and hatred, leading to much suffering.


    Take all of that away and you have less complete Saga, in my opinion.
     
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  21. Imperial Reject

    Imperial Reject Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 6, 2012
    I started watching TCW again yesterday using the chronological list starting with "Cat & Mouse" an episode which I didn't really care too much for when I first watched it, but viewing it as the first episode of TCW somehow made it better. I think this guy's on to something
     
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  22. EternalHero

    EternalHero Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2014

    You'll find that with many episodes, trust me! Watching in the right order makes a huge difference.
     
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  23. Imperial Reject

    Imperial Reject Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 6, 2012
    I wonder why they put Clone Cadets in front of Supply lines though I guess maybe because it introduces Domino Squad
     
  24. Orman Tagge

    Orman Tagge Jedi Knight star 4

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    Apr 10, 2014
    I have some pretty lengthy thoughts to add, and taking into account what you viewed as derailing last time, I'm respectfully asking you to nonetheless give what I have to say a thorough chance - while I shall avoid stepping too much on your toes.

    First of all: the micro-series. The nice thing about it is that it takes you from the end of AotC to the beginning of RotS. It shows you the full transition. There are no blank spaces. Watching TPM-AotC-Micro series-RotS and then the OT doesn't leave any questions. However, I do agree that it leaves much in the way of character development.

    Secondly: TCW. I used to hate it, it gradually progressed to "guilty pleasure because lightsaber fights", and I've started to like it. You're making me really think things through, and y'know, I think you're right. Ahsoka does serve a purpose. TCW has a point. It really deepens Anakin, and Obi-Wan. But there are serious flaws, beyond Ahsoka, you just can't overlook.
    -The Ventress problem. Where did she come from? She was originally introduced by name to Obi-Wan in Republic, hence their banter in TCW, and if you leave out the micro-series and comics she comes out of nowhere.
    -Dooku. Argue it any which way, Dooku and Anakin haven't seen each other since AotC. You seem to put a lot of stake (rightfully so, I think) in GL's intentions, and those clearly were his intentions.
    -Mortis trilogy. Now, before I get burnt, let me say that I like the Mortis trilogy. I do. But I don't think it works in the scope of the rest of the Saga. Sure, it can be canon, but I don't think it should be watched as a direct part of the movies. It's so "out of left field", and it introduces these massive concepts (the Celestials, the prophecy, etc.), and then none of that is seen in the movies. That's jarring. It is. I'm sorry.
    -I'm really not a fan of the way it personified the clones. It just doesn't flow with what we see in RotS. They aren't acting under mind control like the clone that goes off in the Order 66 arc. They're following orders. The way you see them in Republic - grim, honorable, and above all loyal - is much more in keeping with what we see in the films.
    -Darth Maul. I get it. He's awesome. The duel in The Lawless is one of the best lightsaber duels, period. But without a satisfying, preferably televised (read: Rebels) conclusion to his story (which Son of Dathomir does not do, unfortunately) I don't think you should see his return in TCW.

    But what does TCW do right? Well, I think it actually does quite a lot.
    -Camaraderie between Obi-Wan and Anakin. This is huge.
    -As you said, the various plusses of Ahsoka existing.
    -Fleshing out the Separatist movement.
    -Seeing a bit more of Palpatine's plotting.
    -Padme arcs. Good or no, we need something of their relationship.
    -Fleshing out background Jedi like Plo Koon and Kit Fisto, whom we see die in RotS.

    So here's what I would suggest:
    -Seasons 1 and 2 of Clone Wars, and Episode 1 of Season 3. This brings you to the end of the Battle of Hypori. Anakin has been knighted, and ends the episode by departing Padme...and leaving to continue fighting in the clone wars.
    -Which sets you up very nicely for TCW. Grievous and Ventress have been introduced, you've seen Anakin go from Padawan to long-haired Knight, and he's as he appears in TCW. Now, I think you have to be very selective with what episodes would be included, and maybe I'll post later exactly what my "essential" list would be. Basically, minimize Clone-centric stuff, nothing where Anakin and Dooku duel, none of the Darth Maul stuff (just realized that giving a satisfying end to Ventress' arc might necessitate Maul...hmmm....tricky this is), bring in pretty much everything that has secondary or background characters from the films, and I'd say conclude with the Yoda episode, since it plays the most directly into RotS.
    -Complete the micro-series, which leads directly into...
    -ROTS!

    Hope you find some of this worthwhile.
     
  25. EternalHero

    EternalHero Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2014

    You'll see how they fit together just by watching them. Most of the out-of-sequence episodes are part of arcs, they definitely make more sense once you watch them in the right order.
     
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