Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Films and Television' started by ObiWanCon, Jul 27, 2006.
That wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Loved the movie. I was a bit flipped that they wiped out the original timeline with their storyline, but apart from that, it had all the action and good acting I had hoped for. I guess if one looks at it as non canon it is altogether cool as an alternate universe flick.
Yeah, it's basically an alternate universe but by having Spock Prime in the current timeline they can still refer to the old timeline as happening.
[link=http://www.startrekonline.com/startrek_xi]According to the official timeline[/link], the original "Roddenberry-verse" is still ticking along as always (both the upcoming MMO and forthcoming novels are set post-Romulus destruction, in the late 24th Century/early 25th Century), whereas the new "Abrams-verse" is yet another of the myriad splinter-universes that populate the ST continuity.
It's definitely not a new concept. The mirrored universe was featured in the original series.
Skimming that site also reminds me of those post-Nemesis/Countdown novels. Since the Prime universe is pretty much done onscreen for the foreseeable future (the next 2 or 3 movies and possibly even the next series will certainly be (or, in the case of the series, are likely to be) set in New universe), my interest has been piqued in that material since it's unlikely to be contradicted.
Anyone read those? How are they?
Also, for those interested- there's a new Movie tie-in comic series called Nero that elaborates on his time between his arrival back in time and the time we see him again in the movie (it features the Klingon prison sequences too).
I haven't read any ST novels.
What I'm curious about is if they'll bring Khan to the new timeline. They can't bring in someone similar because I think that'll be viewed as a cop out. What they did with Nero was interesting though because in Balance of Terror, Kirk had a confrontation with Mark Leonard's Romulan character. I wonder if they'll retcon his name to Nero.
I don't think that would work- that Romulan was an actual commander or whatever in the Romulan Empire of the Prime universe and that time era.
Also, skimming the MMO site, this class is probably just for the game but by chance is there a name for this class of ship? I really dig that Y-shaped hollowed-out saucer section design (almost evokes a Federation/Romulan (or Klingon) hybrid design, as well as maybe the heavy phaser on the dish of the alt-Enterprise-D).
That's a sweet looking ship.
Here's one that'll really cook your goose:
Gene Roddenberry wanted people to be shown naked in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture". Quite rightly, he didn't see why the repressive morality of the Mosaic Code that has existed for thousands of years (but might be on its last legs) should still apply in an enlightened future. Unfortunately, he was overruled by Paramount Pictures that wanted a "G" rating for its wildly expensive film.
In fact, an obsession with the boundaries of sex and sensuality, the inherent stupidity of the idea of a personal, dictatorial god, and the breaking down of ethnic and cultural taboos, pervade Roddenberry's work. See his first interracial television series, "The Lieutenant", with Gary Lockwood, and a sex comedy film he adapted, "Pretty Maids All In A Row", with Rock Hudson, for some extra-Star Trek examples.
I also don't think those pics were destroyed- I coulda sworn I saw one of them online a few years ago.
I'm sure you can find them through Google.
The Nero miniseries' third issue came out this week- After escaping the Klingon prison, the Narada, being part Borg, part Romulan, sets a course by itself, sensing the call of a kindred-spirit on the edge of the Delta Quadrant- V'ger. Nero resists being fully assimilated by V'ger (it couldn't assimilate one thing- "my hate") but uses the opportunity to have V'ger calculate when and where Spock would arrive.
I can't help but think the Delta Quadrant bit is a nod towards the "V'ger is related to the Borg" theory, even though Nero names V'ger as something distinct from the Borg and the Narada (but then, Nero could simply be unawares).
That's an interesting theory.
You're kidding, right? And I thought that the Star Wars EU was bad! Given that the V'Ger entity easily digitizes whatever presents itself as a threat in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture", the idea that someone as flagrantly aggressive as Nero would escape is downright idiotic. Also, what's with this word, "assimilate"? V'Ger does not assimilate; it patterns and stores. Perhaps it really was loitering about in the Delta Quadrant in 2258, but even that notion seems a tad too convenient.
This whole idea about V'Ger being connected to the Borg is callow and stupid. I think it says something about the desperation of writers and fans when they conflate two entirely separate machine-based entities. Is there not room for more than one non-carbon life form in the ST universe? Of course, there is! In recent years, The Borg have gone from the scourge of the galaxy to a scrap heap for anyone in search of spare parts and upgrades. It's gotten just a touch ridiculous. Also, the V'Ger entity deserves to be kept mysterious -- and unique.
* * *
I yearn for the days of real Star Trek.
This V'Ger, Borg and Nero business, if accurately relayed by Cryo, is pretty low in terms of the ecocycle of ideas. It's one thing to find patterns like science does, to reduce and explain disparate phenomena in terms of fewer and fewer operating principles. It's another thing to take two great mysteries and cheaply overleap them with a flick of the pen, as if Shakespeare's axiom made limitless narrative power available to just anybody that can "write". In science, which makes your airplanes, cheap theory and hasty generalization get ignored at the speed of light. This idea will inevitably end up in the trash of history because it does not ring true with how big mysteries (ever) get resolved, (e.g. real scientific mysteries like Dark Matter and Dark Energy), and cannot simply take the sum integral of memories of V'Ger and the Borg (back in the day) and unify them. Besides, there is no substitute for the cat-and-mouse WWII klaxon blaring across the classic Enterprise. (And another thing - you cannot recreate the Cold War in this age of cyberwarfare. China will defeat us by decryption before it does so by uranium.) Try again, hopeful artisan of originality.
To be fair, Gene Roddenberry himself mused that V'Ger and the Borg were probably connected somehow.
At least, that's what I heard.
I think the reason Nero was not seen as a threat is because of his link to the Narada (and, if the Borg connection is true, would make him even more familiar).
The whole Borg/V'Ger thing started with Roddenberry, IIRC- though his comment is difficult to tell how serious he was.
Three quantitative questions.
How many times in TNG did Roddenberry deliberately or knowingly reuse or exploit species, locations, or names from classic Trek episodes? (Disregard plot reuse.) Divide this by the sum of completely new species, locations, or names during the TNG tenure. Is this ratio greater than one?
In STI V'Ger left quite a paper trail at the highest levels. In the TNG era, where they had yottabytes of memory and exabits per second of processing power, did the episodes featuring the Borg ever give a shred of a reference to V'Ger or to something mechanistic and inexorable that happened in the days of Kirk?
How old are Tim Jones and Mike Johnson? How many of their creative works on Star Trek have made it to print?
[link=http://www.aintitcool.com/node/42881]Klingon Deleted Scene Clip![/link]
Do you think there was nods to Star Wars in this version of Trek
Comic books were invented to encourage young children to read. Period. I know that since the early 80s, some people think it's a form of mature literature, and that's nice for them. Fact is, however, more often than not, they still target children as their audience when writing.
So, yes, they write really bad, stupid things, like borg/v'ger coincidences whenever possible. Children don't care. It's the people in their late teens/early 20s that start to get annoyed. Guess what: that's when most of us STOP reading comics and switch to "dime novels" and other books that usually don't have pictures except on the covers.
And yes, the Star Wars EU is bad, especially in the comic books. All the garbage about the fierce Darth Maul and the oh-so-dangerous Aurra Sing was really rediculous between ep 1 & ep 2, and I don't expect it has become any better.
Nero seemed... Lame as a villan.
The borg were boring when they first appeared, and seldom got any better. Switching from a mass-consciousness to a mass cult-of-personality did not help.
That's incredibly generalized and inaccurate. Comic books were invented as collections of comic strips and evolved into their own storytelling. Early on genres directed at adults dominated (horror, mystery, etc). Though superheroes eventually dominated in America, other countries direct comics at multiple age ranges in multiple genres.
And while the superhero genre is often targeted at the young adult crowd, it's a case-by-case basis. Especially considering the fact that fewer kids read comics these days, the majority of the audience are teenagers, people in their 20's & 30's, etc. Kids didn't stop reading comics- those readers hold on. Getting kids to start reading comics is the trick these days.
Are comics high literature? Most often not. But, especially over the past decade or so, they've certainly become far more mature in their storytelling and character development. And it's hard to argue against a medium when many of it's writers are multi-media authors. Orci and Kurtzman don't suddenly become any better or worse writers writing for comics instead of film or TV. Same goes for Whedon, JMS, Smith, etc, etc.
And this comic is not the origin of the Borg/V'Ger thing- it was something Roddenberry himself suggested, and something that has been referenced in multiple Trek media since (at least one Trek video game's storyline from a few years ago involves the origin of the Borg and Borg Queen with V'Ger), just nothing in the official canon yet.
And your generalization of the SW EU is just as inaccurate- you'll find the vast majority of fans, by far, feels that the SW comics of the past 7-8 years or so (Republic's Clone Wars run, KOTOR, Legacy, etc) far exceed the other mediums' accomplishments. I mean, there's a reason the SW comics have influenced the movies and TV show more than any other medium, after all.
The horror comics were written for kids. They were designed to make the material more accessible. Yes, the audience has changed over the years.
nor is Lovecraft any worse a writer. It's the general quality of writing that frequently drops, not the skill of the individual.
Yes, it was originally a joke! Trust fandom to take it seriously and blow it out of all proportion.
Sorry, I'm about 14 years out of date with comics. Stopped in 1996. I did see the covers though (and heard the fandom gushing. And shuddreed at a few that I occasionally picked up and flipped through. Reminded me of the old Marvel SW series, only with better quality art. Some of the Novels were ok --like the X-Wing series and Thrawn Trilogy-- but most were awful (especially anything by Kevin J Anderson)
Not sure if anyone's mentioned this.
Watched this last night with audio commentary on. During the end credits Abrams drops mention that he visited George Lucas and asked him for advice on how to make the movie good. The deadpan advice he received:
"Put lightsabers in it".