J.J. Abrams STAR TREK XI

Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Films and Television' started by ObiWanCon, Jul 27, 2006.

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  1. Raven Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 1998
    star 6
    Your argument is correct, providing:
    A) The Kelvin would have already been in system at the time of Kirk's birth even if Nero hadn't arrived.
    B) Kirk's birth wasn't hastened by the trauma of the events.
    C1) Winona Kirk was specifically stated to have never been Starfleet in original canon.
    C2) No civilians were permitted on the Kelvin at any time for any reason.

    If all those items are correct, your point is valid. Otherwise, no. Once the lightning storm formed, the Kelvin - which might have been en route to Earth could have been diverted. Alternatively, Kirk's birth might have happened earlier than it should have due to the stress of the situation. As far as I know, nothing says that Winona Kirk wasn't a Starfleet officer. And even if she has been specifically stated to have been non-Starfleet in the original timeline, she could have been on board the ship as a civilian. Pretty much any potential career other than "housewife" has travel options potentially available, and if it tied into the Federation or Starfleet, as a civilian she could have a valid reason for transport on a military ship. Heck, she could have even been a refugee, allowing even the housewife option. There's no pressing reason why she couldn't be on the ship.

    Also, the older brother was filmed, shows up briefly in the movie, but the connection was taken out in editing because it's unnecessary information.


    We know that there was no security because we saw Kirk's entire trip from the bar to the shuttle, and it was made clear that there was no hidden surveillance on site. Right? More likely, he went through security at the entrance to the complex and along the way at appropriate checkpoints. We, the audience sees the dramatic part of his trip. I suppose that there's probably an audience that would like to see Kirk spending thirty minutes filling out forms A4, NX-42, and BSG-75 in order to be admitted into the shipyards. Additionally, Captain Pike had offered him a spot on the shuttle. Presumably, he would have arranged things so that Kirk would have actually been able to get onto the shuttle. Kirk being able to get on the shuttle is covered by the dialog in the bar.

    You essentially say that once Kirk got to San Fransisco, he was immediately joined the Academy. We don't see that. Sure, he might have. Or he might have spent two weeks crashing on Pike's couch while he wrote entrance exams. Or maybe the test scores Pike was referring to in the bar were from an earlier application Kirk made to the Academy at his mother's insistence. Who knows? There are plenty of possibilities, and the
  2. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Actually, the problem is that it DOESN'T work. If it did, then no one would have anything to complain about. Sure, some of the complaints are pure nitpicking. Others, however are massive, massive gaps in credibility/plausibility that defy suspension of disbelief.
    As I see it, Trek XI is the pretty much the same as the prequels: Lots of potential, lots of hype, lots of hope, lots of big names involved, lots of technological jiggery-pokery, but as soon as you actually LOOK at any one aspect, it all falls apart, and almost none of it makes any actual sense.
  3. Zebra3 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2004
    star 5
    I LOVED this movie. I thought everything about it worked well. I have nothing to complain about, but then I'm not one of those fans who get bent out of shape about things like canon and the like. It was one of the most fun movies I've seen in years, maybe since Pirates of the Caribbean.
  4. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    In other words, it's just like every other Star Trek movie.:p
  5. Daramin_of_The_Way Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2004
    star 4
    I agree with Raven.
    I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the more I watch Abrams Star Trek. May be I just sit there and rationalize away supposed plot holes because I am a Trek fan. I'm not sure. However, in response to some holes I would like to offer my own opinion.


    Kirk's rapid promotion through Starfleet-I honestly don't expect Starfleet to be like any of Earth's military organizations. I imagined Starfleet to be more like Heinlien's Interplanetary Patrol in Space Cadet. While they are organized similarly to the American Navy that does not mean that cadets have the same place as cadets in Western military. It seems to be that all cadets have a apprentice tour to take prior to being sent aboard a regular ship. In essence, like the cadets in Wrath of Khan. The fact that Starfleet expected its cadets to be able to handle the ship, perhaps not as well as an experienced crew, but still handle the ship. Kirk has demonstrated that he is pretty much a genius. Pike obviously has a lot of confidence in Kirk and essentially field promotes him. That is not unheard of. We have no idea what Kirk's experiences with 3 years at the Academy were. Even in canon Kirk is supposed to be some sort of genius, because he ends up being one of the youngest starship captains in Starfleet history.

    I could do more, but this is just my opinion. Just thought I would share.

    [face_peace]

  6. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    Here's the way I look at it: This isn't a very good Star Trek movie, but it IS the best Star Wars movie since Return of the Jedi.

    It's kind of like how Batman Returns is a terrible Batman movie but a great Tim Burton movie.

  7. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    ??? huh ???
    A star TREK movie is the best star WARS movie?:confused:
  8. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    Well, for one thing...;)

    It's a big, bombastic space opera that doesn't make any more sense than it minimally needs to. That's Star Wars.

    Also, my comment was a dig at the suckiness of the prequels as much as praise of the new Trek.:p
  9. Daramin_of_The_Way Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2004
    star 4
    I think the new Star Trek suffered a similar fate to the prequels simply because we as fans and viewers had preconceived notions of how things came into place. No, I'm not going to bash on the prequels here [face_shame_on_you]
    Just agreeing that prequels typically are met with skepticism and critique because of expectations.
  10. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    I still wonder why Chekov was assigned to the Reliant in Wrath of Khan rather than being at his usual post aboard the Enterprise.
  11. Daramin_of_The_Way Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2004
    star 4
    I always thought it was because Enterprise had been relegated to a trainee ship, and Chekov was still young enough and experienced enough officer to become a first officer.
  12. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Or just a promotion which required a transfer.
    Put the navigator/weapons officer with that much training and experience in a trainer ship working at the academy, or on a front-line ship out in the field. Hmmm.
  13. Daramin_of_The_Way Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2004
    star 4
    QFE
    Though it is kind of interesting that Sulu becomes a captain towards the last movie. I guess he wasn't as old as the brass though :D
  14. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Sulu was on the cusp of getting a captain's chair at the beginning of SfS. Then he went that little mutiny joyride and... Well... The SAY that all charges were dropped, but I'm sure that unofficially the admiralty was a little hesitant to let him off that lightly. Make him wait and stew a couple more years.

    Sadly, the TV show for Captain Sulu's adventures never happened, in spite of George Takei's compaigning for it.
  15. Daramin_of_The_Way Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2004
    star 4
    There is always the punishment that isn't on the books.

    I honestly really wished that Sulu had had his own show. I really enjoyed the episode of Voyager where Tuvok is shown being on the Excelsior.
  16. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    A little "reading between the lines" suggests that Sulu was 1st Officer of the Enterprise under Captain Spock during WoK. Personally, I liked that it showed that the officers & ranks weren't stagnant. Kinda like Sisko's promotion during DS9, or Worf & LaForge going from Lt.(J.G) to Lt. Commander during the course of the saga.
  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I don't care how many excuses I read about Kirk's promotion. It never made any sense that someone who was still a military cadet should end up the commanding officer of the Fleet's flagship struck me as a very good example of bad writing. The only thing that Kirk really accomplish was point out the similar circumstances between the destruction of the U.S.S. Kelvin and the danger that surrounded Vulcan.
  18. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    To be honest, I can't get past Tyler Perry's bad acting in that scene enough to even THINK about the logic of the promotion.
  19. Daramin_of_The_Way Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2004
    star 4
    I guess I must see this movie through either rose colored glasses or :-B colored glasses because I found Kirk's promotion to be fairly easy to accept, within reason. I guess I also am immune to bad acting.

    I always figured that Kirk had a few things going for him:
    1. He was incredibly smart. Pike said that he was a genius level, that he could have command of his own ship within a decade. It would be reasonable to guess that his scores at the Academy reflected this trait.
    2. I would imagine that Kirk would have minimum of two, possibly three senior level officer recommendations-Spock, Pike and maybe McCoy. Yes, McCoy too because he was promoted to Chief Medical Officer when the first one was killed.
    3. Starfleet may be experiencing a shortage of line officers, especially experienced line officers, with six ships destroyed.Kirk's experience would be a strong support for his promotion.

    Again, maybe I am not critical enough off a movie that I enjoy, but while Kirk's promotion may have stretched it a little, I still could believe it.
  20. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Here's the way I look at it: This isn't a very good Star Trek movie, but it IS the best Star Wars movie since Return of the Jedi.



    Oh dear God! I can't believe I'm reading this. I . . . just . . . can't.



    Also, my comment was a dig at the suckiness of the prequels as much as praise of the new Trek.


    Which is why I'm having difficulty in taking your comment seriously.
  21. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    OK, now hold on to that reaction - now you understand what it's like for me to read the PT described as anything but an utter disappointment.:p


    Before the PT, what "Star Wars" meant above all else, was FUN. And fantastic battles in space.

    STXI was a FUN movie, and full of space action. The PT was not fun, and spent a disappointing bulk of its time planetside.

    Thus I consider STXI the best Star Wars movie since RotJ.
  22. Daramin_of_The_Way Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2004
    star 4
    Star Trek 09 put the "Star" in "Star Trek" again :D
  23. zacparis VIP

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2003
    star 7
    The best star of the movie was the new Enterprise.

    Seriously, I think it's my second favourite design after the E-D.
  24. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    I'm reluctantly approving of the new Enterprise design, but I dislike the impression of the "neck" attaching so far back, making the dish region jut out so far. I think that element makes the secondary hull look short and stubby, almost like it was compressed.

    Additionally, the ambiguous scale is somewhat offputting, especially if the larger end of the figures provided is accurate- it's hard more me to accept an TOS-era craft built to TNG-era sizes.

    The increased technological development that supposedly results from Nero's intervention in the timeline doesn't seem like it could account for such a radical increase- I'd expect something no larger than somewhere between an Excelsior-class and Ambassador-class. Otherwise it loses the semi-submarine vibe of the TOS films. Alas.

    I do like the nacelles though- they look bulkier than the TOS ones (which seems appropriate given my above concerns) and also manage to make the spinning tips look cool (never cared for the TOS glowing tips). The saucer is the saucer, no complaints there (beyond the issues associated with the scale).
  25. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    the engines of the new movie remind me of a ball-point pen and cap design I've been seeing for the last year or so. Don't ask me the specific brand right now. They even have the clear stripe through the white main color.
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