JA #14 (Spoilers!!!)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth Pipes, Jul 4, 2001.

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  1. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    I think those are some good theories. Another reason might be the possibility of Obi-Wan in a relationship. He really can't do that when he's 13 or 14. 16 is a good age to start though.

    This is the 100th post. Woo-hoo! :)
  2. kyrack Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 1999
    star 1
    Yeah, it seems to me that Obi-Wan and Siri may have some time of puppy love in the future.
  3. Cow_Girl Chapter Rep Niagara ON, CA

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 5
    Obi-wan and siri?
    Now that would be entertaining.
    I wonder how Obi will feel when he finds out about Tahl and Qui-gon.
  4. Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 7
    I personally *adore* the idea of Obi-Wan and Siri. I think they work well together. :)

    ~*~Bria
  5. The Cat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2000
    star 3
    You know the main reason why Obi-Wan and Siri would work? Because we haven't seen Siri with Gallia in any later prequel eera stuff, JC:Acts of War, Hunt for Aurra Sing, etc. So she could die just Tahl will, and Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan can have someting sad to talk about.
  6. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    I don't know, in the blurb for the next book they talk about what Qui-Gon did as breaking a "cardinal rule" of the Jedi and we know Obi-Wan is more rule oriented than Qui-Gon. He certainly will have to deal with the situation of developing feelings for someone at some point in these books, but I don't see him doing something like what Qui-Gon just did. In fact having seen Qui-Gon go through it, it might just make him feel more strongly that he won't give in to it.
  7. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    It's funny. I always figured that if the Jedi could marry, it would be too each other. Between this "cardinal rule", their laziness, and the crap they put Lorn Paven through, I can see why this the Jedi fell to Palpatine.
  8. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    Anyone agree?

    Obi-Wan and Siri would be interesting. I wouldn't assume she was dead just because she isn't in the prequels. Obi-Wan and her could have just parted ways if they did have a relationship.
  9. The Cat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2000
    star 3
    What they did to Lorn Pavan was mean, but the had their reasons. Jedi shouldn't have close personal ties, Anakin's feelings for his mother *might* cause him to turn to the Dark Side. "There is no emotioin; there is peace." Frankly, in the NJO, all these Jedi marriages aren't realistic. If your spouse turns to the dark side, are you still married? What is the realtionship turns bad? It's not a good idea.


    BTW, I didn't mean Siri is likely dead because she and Obi-Wan aren't together, I meant because she and Adi Gallia aren't together. In "Acts of War" there's a big master/apprentice field trip, Adi Gallia is there, and no Siri. She's younger than Obi-Wan, much more head strong, there's no way she made knight before him. So where is she?

    And while we're on that subject, exactly where *DO* they bury their dead on Coruscant?
  10. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Oh my god, The Cat, I can't believe I'm not the only one who doesn't think it's terrible the Jedi have their rules about marriages, etc. I can understand very much why those rules were put into place. I bet if we came to the Post-empire universe one or two thousand years in the future we might very well see they had come to the same conclusion again on their own. You have a choice to make, Jedi or family. There are always choices to make in life, that would just be one of them.
  11. Mistress_Renata Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    The only reason I don't want Obi to age anymore is because the series will move too fast! I like him as a younger kid, and if they start to bring in romance it will turn into *gag* "Sweet Valley High" on Coruscant. There's enough of that in fanfic already! ;) Siri seems the likeliest candidate, at the moment. How would she look in a red shirt? ;)

    I think Jedi marriages would be difficult, if not impossible...course I think the authors in NJO have screwed up the whole concept of the Jedi anyway; I'm certain Windu & Co. are rolling in their graves; it's just one long soap opera now, yawn, I don't even bother to read the books, and wouldn't waste my $$...

    If Jedi married--and I'm sure it happens rarely if at all--they would have to agree that the job came first. Which is why marriage of Jedi to a "civilian" would probably be next-to-impossible. Not to mention needing to be neutral, so a civilian spouse would give you a "homeworld" that could conceivably bias your future work...

    I can see them having long-term relationships, so I don't think Qui/Tahl is impossible, and they are both aware of the difficulties. It's probably going to be "we'll spend time with each other when we can."

    Oh, well. We'll see what happens when Anakin/Amidala heats up and we find out what George's stance on Jedi romance is...
  12. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    See, Mistress Renata, we don't disagree on everything. :) I quite agree with this: "and if they start to bring in romance it will turn into *gag* "Sweet Valley High" on Coruscant." :D

    The Star Wars authors in general, Prequel era and NJO really seem to handle Jedi romance in a very unrealistic manner--or at least unrealistic in terms of the type of people Jedi are supposed to be. It's too soap opera-ish. I mean they even have the "loved one with dreaded seemingly incurable disease" angle covered with whatever Mara apparently had. I guess at least it wasn't a brain tumor. ;)

    I absolutely dread the "Obi romance" books that are going to be inevitable if we keep following him at the ages of 16, 17, etc.
  13. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    I think the Jedi policy towards family is really stupid. They consider it a distraction and just succeed in isolating themselves more and more. Family is important too. I'm glad Luke doesn't have such a foolish policy.

    What they did to Lorn Paven was a disgrace but I truly think they would have worned him ahead of time about something like that. If they didn't then they are no better than the Sith.

    Obi in a relationship is good so long as it doesn't turn into Dawson's Creek. Knowing Watson's fine writing, I think we can rest easy knowing that won't happen.

    On the subject of family, I think Qui-Gon made on the stupidest assessments in all the EU in JA 7. He is surprised when he discovers Bruck has been talking about his father. He states that Jedi have very little or no contact with their faimly and that they give up their birthright when they join the Temple. Excuse me, but most Jedi are six months old when they are *given* to the Temple by their parents. How does an infant voluntarily give up their birthright? They don't have a choice in the matter. If I lived in the SW universe, I would never give up my kid to the Jedi. I would never see him again and it would be like having no child at all.

    That statement by Qui-Gon appears to me that he's been brainwashed on Jedi proganda. A suprise for a maverick like him.
  14. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    What makes you think "family" necessarily keeps you grounded? History is filled with the effects of powerful families(as families with Jedi would be) who have abused their power. They put their families' advancement above other people. They even start backstabbing each other. Read histories of kings, queens, nobility, self-made tycoons, etc. Filled with stories of selfishness, of self serving individuals, of disregard for people without their power, wealth, etc. Elitism.

    Or what about the families who have used their talented children for their own gains(stories of stage mothers and fathers ripping off their own kids, making their own kids do things mainly to gain comforts for themselves, etc). Do you think that wouldn't happen with many Jedi children? Of course it would. Potential for power and status and riches tends to bring out the worst in people. I'd be willing to bet the raising of Force sensitive children by the Jedi themselves started in large measure to protect the kids. In some cases to protect them from being used, in others to protect them from being outcast and abused by those who didn't understand or were frightened their special abilities(having visions perhaps, that sort of thing.)

    Simply having a family does not necessarily keep you more "connected" with the rest of the world. Their are plenty of "elitist" families out there. And the Jedi do serve the people of the Republic. But there are only so many of them and they can't do everything. Only it is unlikely the people realize just how important they have been. For thousands of years they have helped keep the Republic relatively peaceful and safe, averted wars, etc. It isn't like their methods are unproven. It isn't until the Jedi are gone that some people begin to realize just what has been lost, that's why, most likely, the Rebellion in the OT still used the phrase "May the Force be with you" even though they aren't Jedi themselves.

    The Jedi's biggest fault seems to be in not realizing how corrupt those in power are, because they have served the Republic so long. They are blind to it. This is a fault and a real one. They have weaknesses, but it isn't like allowing children to be raised with families would have solved it. Most likely it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.
  15. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    And the Jedi aren't being selfish by taking these kids away? Aren't the Jedi using their own knights? Most of these parents think they are doing the best thing by giving their children to the Jedi. If a Jedi truly believes in his convicitons, he'll be able to balance these things. Perhaps if the Jedi have rescued Shmi immediately from slavery after TPM Anakin wouldn't have been so screwed up.

    The Jedi students who "give up their birthright" in brainwashed Jedi terms deserve to have a family and a choice in their lives.

    The Jedi allowed themselves to become too stagnet and rigid in their rules. The Council spent far too much time sitting in their seats and isolating themselves in the Temple from the rest of the galaxy.
  16. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    No I don't. The parents do what they think is best. The Jedi aren't forced to stay. If they want to leave they can. But they haven't for the most part, we'll probably find. Which means for many generations most Jedi have been perfectly happy being Jedi.

    Tatooine isn't really part of the Republic, as such the Jedi couldn't really act there. More likely, Qui-Gon should not have taken Anakin away from his mother when he found he couldn't free her then. There are only 10,000 of them according to the TPM novelization. 10,000 of them to police the hundreds of worlds of the Republic. And the Council are only 12 of those 10,000. Most of whom do not just sit in a tower in the Temple.

    If they became stagnant, they became stagnant. The fact that the Jedi are raised away from their birth families doesn't mean they wouldn't have become stagnant. The Roman Empire became stagnant being ruled by plenty of people who were raised by their own families. As have others. Stagnation and where the kids are raised have little to do with each other.

    And I really doubt that Lucas would support the idea that there is something wrong with being raised by people other than one's own birth parents as he has at least a couple of adopted children himself.
  17. The Cat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2000
    star 3
    That's a very good analogy. Giving your child to the Jedi isn't much different than adoption. And the Jedi aren't wanting for companionship; look how close Obi-wan and Qui-Gon are.

    As far as Lorn Pavan goes, it wasn't fair HOW the Jedi gave him the shaft, but then again how fair is it when his son is the only one who gets to know his real father? They did the right thing. Just because you get fired doesn't mean you have to turn into a low-life alcoholic like he did anyway.
  18. Master Chbel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2000
    star 4
    All we know about Lorn's son and family is his version--the version of a bitter alcoholic. I wouldn't put much faith in it being acurate. He needed someone to blame for his problems and drinking--so he blamed the Jedi.

    What really happened is probably more along the lines of: His son was discovered to be Force sensitive. Lorn and his wife were thrilled and agreed to the Jedi taking the child--knowing they would have minimum contact.
    Then things started going wrong. Lorn's wife left him (probably for another man) and Lorn started to drink. When he started showing up to work drunk and belligerent the Jedi first told him he couldn't speak to his son in this state--then when he started drinking more, they found him another librarian position elsewhere.

    He was fired from that position (or never even showed up for it)...And he now blames the Jedi for everything.
  19. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    How do you know that's the story? They never truly explained it in Shadow Hunter. I think Lorn's wife left him before he gave his son up. I think that's the reason he gave his son up in the first place.

    Why would a Jedi want to leave the order? It's the only thing they know because the Jedi don't permit them to know anything else.

    Consider this, it was Luke's love of his father that brought about the redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Anakin's family is what redeemed him.

    I'll still never agree with the Jedi policy on love and family. This kind of isolation helped to bring about their downfall.
  20. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

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    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
  21. Mistress_Renata Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    *hug for Naw Ibo* I knew we'd agree on something!

    And now I've got to disagree with Darth Pipes: you need to remember that GFFA isn't 20th Century Western culture, so it can't really be judged by our standards.

    In the Middle Ages, many children were either "given" to monasteries, or fostered to other families at an early age, who would raise them. In the case of the fosterings, and, I am sure, the Jedi, the child had the opportunity to return home at a later date. In JA#...1? Obi remembers a rare visit home to his "real" family. But he WANTED to come back to the Temple. And I believe that the biological family is not the be-all/end-all of existence. If the children in the Temple are raised with love and attention, why wouldn't they be happy? I agree, it is like an adoption. Sometimes, the family you are closest to are the people your heart chooses, not the people you are born to.

    I think some people DO choose to leave... probably when they get to be Padawan age, or later, as the full implication of life as a Jedi sinks in... or even earlier. I can see a few of those "home visits," with the child being given a choice: to come back to the Temple to continue training or to remain and finish growing in the bosom of his or her family. I'm sure there are some children who decide to stay. After all, Qui Gon says to Xanatos (#2, I think) that Jedi could choose to leave 'with honor' at any time. They probably just explain to the Council that they believe they'd rather follow a different path. As long as they are above board, why would the Council say no? You wouldn't want one of the Order to be someone who didn't want to be there.

    As to a "normal" life, since some people complain that children raised by the Jedi don't have a "normal" life... they aren't normal kids! We all know how cruel kids can be to someone who is different, whether mentally retarded, physically disabled, or gifted and talented. I was tormented for years by other kids in my school, because I read books for fun, not just for class assignments. Picture a single, Force-sensitive kid, who has no way of learning to control all of the sensations his ability gives him, in a public school with a bunch of other kids who are either afraid of him, or jealous of him, and in either case are likely to be viciously cruel.

    In that case, for a Force-sensitive child to be raised by people who care about him, with other children who have the same unusual abilities is about the only chance at "normalcy."

    Yes, it IS a sacrifice for the parents. And I bet some choose not to make it. That Senator in #12 didn't turn over her son. He never got the training he needed to understand or control the Force, and eventually went insane. I don't think the Jedi pound on the door, and carry the kid off. They are informed of a child's existence, are asked to come assess its abilities, make their recommendation, and leave it to the parents. Candidates are taken up to the age of three, I believe, so the parents do have some time to think it over.

    Okay, enough speechifying... (jumps off soapbox)...
  22. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    "erases everything she had previously wrote"

    Mistress Renata pretty much said everything I was trying to say, only better. :)
  23. The Cat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2000
    star 3
    Renata: Very well said, especially the example of the senator's son whose life was ruined because be wasn't trained.

    Pipes: True, Anakin's love for his father redeemed Anakin, but his love for his sister was exploited by Vader to turn him to the Dark Side. "So...You have a twin sister..." As you'll recall, it almost worked. Hence Obi-Wan's advice "Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but could be made to serve against you." Too many emotional ties for Jedi, especially romantic ones, which can overpower one's logic and reasoning, can easily lead to a dark path.
  24. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Exactly, I think alot of people misinterpret the ending of ROTJ. It wasn't simply Luke's love of his father--whom in all honesty he didn't even know, he didn't know Anakin Skywalker. He loved the idea of his father, a father who had been drawn for him by Obi-Wan and Yoda--the good man who had been a good friend and powerful Jedi.

    It was the fact that he realized that there was a greater good to be served. He had a sense of the greater good which Anakin lost or may not have really had to begin with. He didn't allow Vader and the Emperor to use his love for his sister and his friends against him. He didn't allow them to twist it so he would be turned to the dark side. Better Dead than Dark. :) He chose to possibly die rather than to go to the Dark Side. Something Anakin will very likely show himself unable to do.

    Vader saw that Luke, this part of himself, was strong and good. He realized he didn't have to let this good and strong part of himself die. He realized he could choose to let the bad part of himself die by doing what he was meant to do to begin with, kill the Emperor and bring balance to the Force.

    Talk about symbiont circles--Luke saw Vader's mechanical hand which stopped him from killing him because he realized he was becoming just like him. Vader saw Luke willing to die rather than choose the rage and anger and hate of the Dark Side and this made him realize he had a choice in the matter. Rather than allow the good man his son was to die, he chose to let the twisted, more machine than man part of himself to die.
  25. Jedi-Faith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 2
    Awhile ago, someone mentioned about burying the dead... the Jedi don't bury their dead, they cremate them... I guess it might be standard procedure in the SW galaxy...

    As for the way the Jedi seem to be against the idea of family and romance, I can sort of see why they're right. And I think maybe this latest JA trilogy is meant to show why the Jedi forbid marriage. Qui-Gon has become far too distracted to even think straight. Love can do funny things to the mind, and a Jedi must always view things from an objective perspective.
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