JA #15 *Spoilers*

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cow_Girl, Sep 12, 2001.

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  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I think Qui Gon felt Obi Wan had come to terms with Bruck's death and misjudged his ability to deal with it.

    Truth be told I suspect Qui Gon felt he had to meditate a great deal on the death of Xanatos.

    Xanatos after all was his foe and best friend for equal amounts of decades and the suicide of a man on your account can seriously cloud thinking.

    As for Obi-Wan I think Qui Gon was giving into Fear.

    Fear leads to Anger (Revenge) Anger leads to Hate (Balog will taste that no doubt) and hate leads to suffering (Everyones)

    Qui Gon by this point I'm sure had let his emotions be out fo control and he was so worried about Tahl he had subconciously given up for a loss.

  2. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    I think Qui Gon felt Obi Wan had come to terms with Bruck's death and misjudged his ability to deal with it.

    That is exactly where my complaint lies. That is what Qui-Gon does in different ways on a number of occassions and it is never dealt with. This issue of Qui-Gon being "otherwise engaged" is skipped over. It doesn't take a genius to figure "Well even if he's dealt with it, this murder accusation has to be very difficult for him and I should be here to support him, especially seeing as Bruck was taken in by my evil former apprentice Xanatos".

    Even with Xanatos---Obi-Wan himself was put into a great deal of danger because of Xanatos, Qui-Gon's former apprentice. Qui-Gon acted in certain ways which certainly have not helped his and Obi-Wan's relationship because of what happened with Xanatos, even after Obi-Wan becomes him padawan. Then there is the behavior due to Tahl--I mean in the last book alone he's pretty treating Obi-Wan, who has followed him despite the Council's not exactly being supportive, sort of like luggage.

    There are issues these things would naturally bring up for Obi-Wan which are almost invariably either not dealt with or glossed over. And as he is the Apprentice in the Jedi Apprentice series and we are supposed to be theoretically, following his development as a Jedi, inside his mind and his emotions--it seems to me show a lack of focus on Watson's part to constantly almost ignore things that should be major issues.

    Especially when one considers how it would tie into TPM(if one chooses to do so)--Obi-Wan was deeply hurt, obviously, to be tossed aside with a backhanded compliment in favor of Anakin. This certainly would give greater depth(which should be a main part of the point of these books) to the character's reaction.
  3. Jedi-Faith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 2
    Ok, well I skimmed the book because talking about it without reading it was starting to drive me loco...

    The first delay, the speeder, Qui-Gon was looking in Tahl's best interests. His logic was they needed two people to rescue her.

    Basically, he says "I don't want to leave you here because it's dangerous, AND we'll stand a better chance of saving Tahl if we're together." I'm pretty sure that if the latter reason didn't exist, Qui would've just continued on...

    I guess the logic remains the same with Obi-Wan's injury. Jude doesn't do too much describing of the injury; just that a huge rock lands on his leg, he falls, and his leg gave way from beneath him... So I dunno which leg was injured, just that it was pretty painful so he couldn't walk on his own... so from that and the way Qui-Gon was constantly concerned that it would slow them down near the end of the book, I'd say it was pretty bad...

    It's always easier to overlook emotional pain compared to physical... You can easily see a bleeding wound, but not a broken heart. I'm hoping JA doesn't end, so that this issue could be addressed in the future.

    The only thing that really bugged me so far about this book was the reference to Xanatos. Jude Watson is still insisting in her books that Xanatos was Qui's first apprentice, and then Obi was his second. She really sets that point in stone in one of the flashbacks. I was hoping to see an appearance by Qui-Gon's first apprentice, the elusive one that other publications have talked about. But I guess Jude and those who proofread JA aren't even going to consider that...
  4. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Personally I thought Dave Wolverton in his one JA book had more of the focus I thought the series should have. It wasn't the "Qui-Gon and that little guy behind his shoulder" show, but really about Obi-Wan with a some good insights to his master. I really wish they would get someone else to write the Anakin/Obi-Wan books, only in that case, the focus would obviously have to be on Anakin and thus again, we'd not get much focus on Obi-Wan's internal life.

    However at least what we did get would probably amount to more than just using him as an excuse to bring Qui-Gon up, and every other time he had a good idea it wouldn't be Watson's favorite preface of "Qui-Gon did this once"(paraphrase). We also mightn't get the situation like Jedi Quest where on one page she shows Anakin thinking about what a quick mind Obi-Wan has and how good he is at planning strategy and THEN on the very next page, she has Obi-Wan ask Anakin what they should do?!?!

    I don't want to read another whole JA series(and I'll read it even though it'll kill me ;) ), of that. I don't think Obi-Wan's whole purpose should be to be remember "yet another wonderfully inspiring thing Qui-Gon once told him". I can't understand the problems most EU writers seem to have with Obi-Wan, they either make him too stiff or too stupid or sometimes both or they just can't seem to figure out what to do with him. So he hangs around and does some stuff things but they never really get into his mind in a complex way, only in a surface way.


    However, that said, the one thing I am interested in is how is Bant going to handle the death of Tahl and how might Obi-Wan be able to help her, especially when he's also got his master to deal with? Not that I have any high hopes of seeing that dealt with in any detail but who knows. :D
  5. Jedi-Faith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 2
    I think authors have a problem with Obi-Wan's character because the whole story hasn't been told yet. With Ep II coming and Ep III still a few years away, I guess it might be hard for an author to write about characters like him without knowing GL's whole vision. Anything they say could end up AU, and that gets confusing (like the Xanatos situation... you'd think LFL would change that when they proofread the story...).

    With JA, it's easier to write Qui-Gon compared to Obi-Wan cuz Qui's dead. No more contradictions; Jude's free to write whatever she wants for him. But for Obi-Wan, she'll have to worry about the movies and what might happen in them, etc. etc...

    The only hope one has with the new Anakin & Obi-Wan series is that both characters will be hard to write for, so the focus could be a bit more even. But from what I've seen so far, any book with Anakin Skywalker as a Padawan in it will feature endless amounts of foreshadowing his ultimate destiny of turning to the dark side, and endless foreshadowing that Obi-Wan's failure to train Ani will be a huge catastrophe. Ok, tell us something we don't know?

    I really hope JA doesn't end at 18... I know some people are bored of it, but I'm not... The second part of SE mentions things that JA hasn't really covered, and I'm gonna find it really annoying if they don't get the chance to...

    I'm really not sure if I'll be reading the new series or not. It really depends on the direction they approach the storyline. If it's going to be foreshadowing 'til it's so obvious you wonder why the Jedi are so stupid, then I'd reread the JA books a million times instead.
  6. MaraJadee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2000
    star 3
    hey, I think this book was really really sad. It was also very agitating for me. I am sick and tired of Watson picking on Qui-Gon!! First Xanatos and now this? What does she have against the Qui-Gon anyway? Poor Qui-Gon...Poor Qui-Gon.... :(

  7. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    But somehow I don't think they are really going to be getting into Obi-Wan's padawan years in EP II or III, so what in the world is she worried about contradicting? She's writing about a childhood and young adulthood we are never going to see or hear about most likely. That is what these books were supposed to be for, note the title "Jedi Apprentice".

    They were supposed to fill us in on Obi-Wan's development and his years of training. Obviously during the course of that we'd learn something about Qui-Gon, but it would be in relation to learning about Obi-Wan, not the other way around.

    Mara makes the great point, although it is different from the one she was trying to make I think :) , it's always "poor Qui-Gon, poor Qui-Gon". Qui-Gon is almost invariably the emotional focus of these books. And Mara, she doesn't have something "against" Qui-Gon. The fact that she picks on him all the time shows just how much she likes him. By picking on him she makes him the focus of the stories. Look at fanfiction--if a character gets tortured is it normally because the writer doesn't like them or because they do? It's because they do. Why else do Obi-Wan fans write Obi-torture fanfic? And why do Obi-Wan fans read it? Because we love Obi-Wan. LOL! :D

    We see Obi-Wan when he is 25 years old in TPM. She really doesn't have to worry about contradicting anything prior to that. At least not that she wouldn't also have to worry about contradicting with Qui-Gon because Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are obviously going to be together.

    I do agree with the foreshadowing for Anakin though. They are always so heavyhanded and it just makes the Jedi look downright stupid. Obi-Wan made mistakes, but he also was good enough to almost get Anakin to knighthood. He was good enough that it wasn't obvious that he was failing until it was too late. That's one of Obi-Wan's tragedies, he was good enough to almost get him there, but not good enough to keep him from being able to be turned, which probably made Anakin actually that much more dangerous.
  8. Jedi-Faith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 2
    Jude Watson did say that she liked writing for Qui-Gon's character... LOL! Ok, so maybe Obi fans would be disappointed I guess at the lack of attention/torment the padawan receives :D But hopefully, the next book will even the attention. I mean, Obi just lost his master to the dark side; he's gotta react in some way...

    As for contradicting stuff, she already did with the whole choosing to be a padawan thing at the age of 13... I read somewhere recently that the age of becoming a padawan is actually closer to 7 or 9 or something, which is why they said that Anakin was too old to be trained. And then there's Xanatos... And Owen, who may not end up at all related to Obi-Wan even though it's been established like that ever since the novel for ROTJ came out. A lot of things in the SW universe can change by the time Ep III comes out; it's all up to GL.
  9. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
  10. Cow_Girl Chapter Rep Niagara ON, CA

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 5
    Just in case someone had not noticed yet :)
    The cover art for JA #17 is now online and it is very cool. As someelse poimted out you can see an image of Qui-gon being reflected in the characters eye. Who is the only witness? Why are they on the cover? Why are thye looking at Qui-gon? Does anybody know if this book will be continuing the Tahl?Qui-gon ark or if it is another book all on it's own?
  11. MaraJadee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2000
    star 3
    Ibo , thank you, I never thought of it that way. I guess its not so bad now. I'm still sad for Qui-Gon though. I think the reason why she doesn't focus on Obi-Wan as much is because she has a plenty of time to focus on him in the next series. Does anyone know if the next series is going to be called," Jedi Apprentice" as well?
  12. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    I'm going to be sorry to see Jedi Apprentice go. This next series better rock.
  13. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Nope, MaraJadee, we've already gotten a hint of what she's going to do in the next series with JA: Special Edition Deceptions and Jedi Quest. And it ain't pretty. ;)

    Everytime Obi-Wan has a good idea, it gets prefaced with "Qui-Gon once said..." or something like that. Or as the above example from Jedi Quest: On one page she shows Anakin thinking about what a quick, clever mind Obi-Wan has and on the next page, Obi-Wan says he doesn't know what to do and asks Anakin!! Helllooo...it couldn't have been any more glaring than that.

    And he has nothing whatsoever to contribute to the resolution of the story. He's there but he doesn't have anything to do with the plan that brings about the resolution. He doesn't have anything to do with the action. He doesn't contribute any special knowledge. Had he not been there it would not have made a bit of difference to the outcome of the story. He was only there because he kind of had to be as it would seem really strange for him to just disappear for the last half of the book.

    As an example of another missed opportunity from JA #15 again. There is a scene with the swoop that gets damaged. She had Qui-Gon look at it and give the diagnosis.

    Nowhere in TPM were we shown anything to make us think that Qui-Gon had any great technical skills, although I'm sure we can assume they are good. Obi-Wan on the other hand, was shown to be quite technically proficient. He hotwired the Bongo after it lost power--which he had never seen nor heard of prior to that day. He diagnosed the damage and replaced the Queen's ship's hyperdrive on Tatooine. Even in ANH we get some hints that old Obi-Wan was up on things.

    If Ms Watson wasn't so single minded, she would definitely be showing us this now throughout the JA series. Something about Obi-Wan having an interest in that area as a teenage padawan. That would have been a great opportunity to just at least show him doing something with it. Instead---nothing, it's all about Qui-Gon.

    Regarding JA #17 art, notice NO jedi apprentice Obi-Wan Kenobi on the cover art. But Qui-Gon is there...
  14. Jedi-Faith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 2
    As I recall, in SE, Jude Watson did mention about Obi-Wan's interest in spacecraft and such, when they visited Garen at the flight school. Oh, and speaking of SE, where does it say Obi is 15? ?[face_plain] Hehe, I was looking through it; the only time reference they give is for Bant, because she's a year older from the time Bruck almost drowned her... Uhhh, help?

    And in JA15, wasn't it Obi-Wan who diagnosed the damaged speeder, not Qui-Gon? Hehe, it's so hard to refer to books that I left at home! ARG! :D I dunno; in my memory, Obi-Wan looks at it and says, "It's worse than I originally thought..."

    Uhh, or maybe I read it and then twisted it in my head... that happens too... [face_blush]

    But I agree with you Ibo regarding the direction of the new series... I didn't read JQ; she really did that Personally, I'd rather read JA even if Obi-Wan seems to sit around and watch a lot. Being portrayed as a spectator is better than being portrayed totally out of character...
  15. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    It wasn't a character revelation moment though, it was more like well all guys are going to be interested in space craft. Sort of like all guys ( ;) ) love cool looking cars. The point is she could use that sort of thing as a way of actually given Obi-Wan some "hobbies" or whatever, some kind of interests and character development. Just because it is something obvious.

    I always figured Obi-Wan to be the sort of guy to be interested in history or something. I don't know why but that was just my own feeling. Someone wrote a fanfiction series, can't remember what it was called, that gave Obi-Wan a "hobby" of having an interest in Jedi lore and history. But anyway, really Obi-Wan isn't allowed to develop much as a well rounded character. He just goes around reacting to Qui-Gon. Which of course he has to do to some extent, but it's really become like that is his only purpose in these stories. If anything it should be the other way around.

    However much he might screw up Anakin's training, the guy becomes a great Jedi Knight, one of the best, he wouldn't become that way if his only preoccupation in youth was worrying about his master, and then in his later life, his dead master. He'd do it sometimes and that would certainly be among the things that shapes him as a person, but it wouldn't be the constant thing it is in these books.


    Here is the part about the swoop:

    "Qui-Gon bent to examine the swoop. Part of the control panel had fused togehter. After a moment he lifted his head. "It's worse than I thought. It will take some time to repair...."

    I can't remember the age thing right now, it's been a while. :) I'll have to find the book and look at it again before I can explain it. :D
  16. Jedi-Faith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 2
    OH... [face_blush] Yes, see, I do twist things in my head... Well, I like my version of the scene more ;)

    Anyways, I agree that Obi should get to develop his own character in the books, but it doesn't look like it'll happen in JA or in the new series. I guess for Jude Watson, it's more interesting to write Qui-Gon cuz he's dead (and she seems to have an obsession over the guy... hehe, fanfic writer concept: you always torture the one you love :D)... And then it's more interesting to write Anakin cuz he turns to the dark side... Poor Obi-Wan is kinda caught in the middle...
  17. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    There's bound to be more than one Owen in the galaxy. That's fixable. All Jude Watson said was Obi-Wan had a brother named Owen.
  18. Jedi-Faith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 2
    Yea, that potential error in the JA books is fixable... But there are a lot of character encyclopedias out there that may need serious revisions... :)

    Edit: ARRGG! Today's just not my day for expressing coherent thoughts... [face_blush] Lack of sleep does things to you...
  19. ValedaKor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    Got it from the UPS guy at 3, read the last page at 3:45, what can I say, I'm a fast reader...LOL

    The "buildup" to the emphasis on Qui-Gon has been striking, and apparently, inevitable, now that news of a new series has been revealed. Will this mean that Obi-Wan will emerge as the stronger of the duo, setting up the ending of the series? Is this where all this is heading?

    Since there is a "moral to the story" in everyone of the JA books, what moral are we supposed to take away from "The Death of Hope?" Does the title say it all? Revenge is in Qui-Gon's heart...hardly the Jedi way, but definitely a human emotion. How eerie this is, given the events of September 11.

    I hope that somehow the series can end on an "upbeat" note. Since we know what's coming with the prequels, and what's happening in the NJO series, I'd like to see something in the current Star Wars universe that isn't all dark and depressing.
  20. Master Chbel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2000
    star 4
    Isn't 13 the oldest a padawan can be chosen according to JA series? That's why Obi-Wan was so worried--he was twelve at the beginning of the series.

    And that would fit that most are picked around 7-8 years. (Though I feel sorry for any Jedi who takes a Padawan that young.)
  21. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    I don't think so, because it seems like there are plenty of 10, 11 and 12 year old padawans around who haven't or are just about to chosen in the JA books. While 13 is the oldest they can be chosen, it doesn't seem like it is that much older than the normal age. It seemed like the average age for being chosen was maybe 10 or 11, rather than 7 or 8.
  22. Jedi-Faith Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2000
    star 2
    I, too, think 7 to 9 is a little young to become a Padawan; I was just paraphrasing the official site... I think around 13 is a much more appropriate age, but GL apparently decided that the age 13 thing is another thing that went from EU to AU... It's getting so confusing... ?[face_plain]

    And here's the thing I was talking about; the Ask Jedi Council's answer to "Why was Anakin too old to be trained?"

    "Plotwise, we're dealing with the insistence of Obi-Wan in taking on this young kid and training him, even though, in theory, the child should have been trained by Yoda until he was about seven or eight years old. And then when he was seven or eight, he'd be given a Jedi. He'd become the Padawan learner to a Jedi..."

    http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/steve/askjc20010913.html

    Edit: Ok, so I'm still not used to the markup codes yet... [face_blush]

    Edit 2: I'll get there, eventually... ;)
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