Jacen and Traitor speculation (DJ Spoilers)

He's obviously being tortured here. When you're tortured, and in the grip of such intense pain, is Jacen going to be able to concentrate enough to even access the Force?

Don?t underestimate him, JMA. He?s been through a lot since Belkadan, and he has grown stronger in the Force since then. His mental control has also improved a great deal since then. We know this from Conquest, and even more so from SbS.

His death agony however would have sent out a non-specific shock wave through the Force, meaning that even on such as Kyp would feel it.

To be honest, this statement makes me wonder if you have actually read DJ. Kyp had a much better understanding and connection to Anakin than he did to Jacen, and yet he never felt Anakin?s death. What makes you think that he would feel the death of someone who he had nothing in common with and even disliked if he didn?t feel the death of someone he liked? I think that Sabrajaguar hit this point a little earlier, and I obviously concur with him.

 

"To be honest, this statement makes me wonder if you have actually read DJ"

I'm wondering where the need to be offensive has come from. Obviously I have read DJ, as have you. Only I wouldn't make the completely incorrect assessment that you have not, simply because I do not agree with what you are saying.

So, politely of course, I ask you to please think before you post something of this nature, as I can guarantee you that I do.

JMA

 

"Kyp had a much better understanding and connection to Anakin than he did to Jacen"

Not to be offensive here, but this is clearly untrue. Kyp had no connection whatsoever with Anakin, and he clearly admits this, stating that he knew Anakin "by reputation only".

"What makes you think that he would feel the death of someone who he had nothing in common with and even disliked if he didn?t feel the death of someone he liked?"

Hmm. And yet everyone remaining from the Jedi Strike team felt it. Are you telling me that all of these Jedi have enough of a connection to Jacen to have felt his death throes? I certainly hope not. In fact, Alema Rar, Tesar Sebatyne, Tekli...these Jedi barely knew Jacen, passed their mission to destroy the Queen, and Alema even COMPLETELY disagreed with Jacen, much like Kyp did. And yet she felt the death. As did Kyp.

JMA

 

I think alot of you who posted to this topic are getting too literal with Jacen's "death".

Personally, if the Vong had finished what they were doing to Tahiri, she would have been very much dead to the life she was originally from. Besides, with a book called Traitor on the horizon, why not bring Jacen back a villian? Certainly gives Stover an interesting way to torment the Solo's/Skywalker's.

But, I agree with the fact that Leia is in denial. I also think that Anakin was walking a bit closer to the edge of the whole light/dark than we were let on to, but there's no way to know for sure now...

 

I have posted this somewhere else but ...

I think the clue to this are Vergere's tears. She gives her tears to Jacen in the end of SbS because she knows he will get tortured. Could it be her tears switch him off from the force and the other Jedi get the impression he dies but Leia as his mother knows he's still alive (a mother knows ...). This would also explain why Vergere wasn't sensed by the Voxyn.

 

That's a good theory, but if the tears are inside Vergere, since they're created by her, how is she then able to access the Force? ? This whole thing with Jacen's death leaves many a question to be answered. Here's hoping that it has a good conclusion!

JMA

 

So, politely of course, I ask you to please think before you post something of this nature, as I can guarantee you that I do.

I apologize. Like I said in my statement, I was being honest. The reason why I had trouble understanding how you could have come to the conclusion that you did was because Kyp himself couldn?t understand why he felt Jacen?s death. That was stated very clearly in the book. If Kyp could feel Jacen?s death, then why had he not felt Anakin?s death? This confused Kyp, and so I had assumed that anyone who had read the book would have found that important.

However, I was obviously mistaken, and you have my sincerest apologies.

Not to be offensive here, but this is clearly untrue. Kyp had no connection whatsoever with Anakin, and he clearly admits this, stating that he knew Anakin "by reputation only".

I take no offense, and I agree that Kyp knew Anakin ?by reputation only?. That was stated in the book. However, the connection that I was trying to refer to was a much greater understanding of Anakin?s motives. I admit that I might have been exaggerating, but the fact remains that Kyp had a better understanding of Anakin then he had of Jacen. And since he had a greater understanding of Anakin, he would have been more likely to have felt his death.

Are you telling me that all of these Jedi have enough of a connection to Jacen to have felt his death throes?

Yes. The bond they all developed during their mission was a very strong one. Jacen had been mentally connected to them all for hours at a time. That would most certainly create a very strong bond.

 

Killfire I think you might be right about Vergere. We all know that Jacen will be torture by the vong and even Vergere Knew that. I think that is why she was crying, crying for him. I think the tears when they fell on Jacen somehow is protecting him. Do not forget Vergere tears help cure Mara. For some reason I think Vergere and her tears are very important and maybe that is the reason the jedi can not feel her unless she want them to. Only Jacen and Jaina were able to feel her both time she let them feel her.

 

What if Jacen's "cry" and subsequent blinking out was him falling to the dark side? The strike team in SbS became unable to clearly sense Jaina after Anakin's death, and Jacen completely lost all sense of her in the force if I remember correctly. Fear can lead to the dark side, and if one is tortued enough and broken.... He probably was being tortured, and most likely being shaped into something by the vong.

 

That?s an interesting possibility, JediBaylen. I had considered the possibility of Jacen going to the Dark Side, but I had never thought that that might be the reason why the other Jedi stopped feeling him.

 

i think that jacen isn't dead at the beginning of Trato, but i couldn't tell u about the end. who knows. it says that most important things happen in the hardcovers, so i dont think jacens future will be clear tell destinys way

 

Ok, first off, I have not read DJ yet, but due to this discussion, I think I see some possibilities regarding his "death cry."

I think that because Tsavong Lah needs the other Jedi twin, he is setting a trap. Jacen discovers this trap and, during a torture, sends this cry out through the force. This will prevent them from sending a rescue mission and endangering Jaina.

 

The reason Jacen suddenly "disappeared" in the Force can be answered with one word: ysalamiri

They were in orbit around Mykyr, remember?

wk

 

I've been reading over the many theories on this thread and have found them to be intersting. I think that it is uncertain to many, including myself, what a force connection is. Who can have one and what circumstances constitute one feeling a connection to another in the force. Perhaps someone could enlighten us on those subjects and thus we can get a greater understanding of the force connections in DJ.

 

JediJSolo

"'If he was trying to spare feelings, wouldn't he have spared Luke's and Tenel Ka's as well?'

No, because the only way that he could be sure that they wouldn?t come for him and get themselves hurt or killed was for them to believe that he was dead"

But doesn't sparing Leia's feeling negate the effect? He left doubt in Leia's mind, so now there is doubt in Han's mind, too. Luke could have doubts now, as well.

"Why did Kyp feel Jacen?s supposed death? I have already stated that I believe it is because Jacen was channeling his pain to the people he believed needed to feel it."

If Jacen was trying to discourage a rescue attempt, as you stated above, why would he include Kyp. I don't think there is any Jedi who needs less discouragement to rescue Jacen Solo, than Kyp Durron.

In fact, the only scenarios I can think of where Kyp would attempt a rescue are: a)Jaina asks him to, b) Han asks him too, c) Luke asks him too. And who are the three people most likely to believe Jacen is still alive? Thats right, Jaina, Han, and Luke. Because of the trust and love they feel for Leia they probably believe her, even Luke who felt something supposedly different. Do you think, after reading Dark Journey, that if Jaina asked Kyp to rescue her brother, even if he felt he was dead, that he would refuse? By not including his mother, as you claim he did, he has negated his efforts.

 

Deliberate or otherwise, Jacen is capable of projecting his presence across a galaxy? Not just to his family either. To Kyp? To other Jedi? Strong indeed is this one with the Force

The two perspectives of Jacen's "agony" which we were intimate witnesses to - namely Tenel Ka's and Kyp's - are distinctly different. Why is that? Not just because Kyp and Tenel Ka are two different characters; but also because the nature of the presence differed in each case. Hrmmmmm...

Jacen's alive.

If we look at the progression of events very closely as they relate to Jacen, we find that that Jacen's supposed death is merely intended as a plot device to dissuade Jaina from pursuing him.

1. Since the end of SbS and the beginning of Dark Journey Jaina is bent returning for Jacen.
2. Then the other young Jedi brand together in her decision as a show of solidarity presumably.
3. Next, we see Tenel Ka's warm sense of Jacen followed abruptly by an "agonizing white heat."
4. Then Jaina senses Jacen's "death", but only through the other Jedi immediately close to her. This time, it's a "white-hot pain."
5. Kyp's experience of Jacen's presence is all pain Curiously, Kyp instantly feels "a psychic blast of incredible power and pain." Kyp even loses his balance
6. Interesting to note that we find a "pale but composed" Leia following Jacen's agony in the Force spanning incredible distances to multiple Jedi remarkably.
7. Mara and Luke also apparently feel Jacen's death. Mara deems Leia's wishful thinking as "protective illusions." In a book which Kyp himself compares Leia's raw Force ability in the Force to Luke's, she's now deluding herself about Jacen when she decided not delude herself about Anakin? Uhm okayyyyyy...
8. After Jaina's reunion with her parents, they again discuss Jacen's situation. Phrases like "implacable conviction" describe Leia's stance on Jacen's supposed death. Jaina thinks her mother is in denial.
9. Immediately following this chapter Jaina wonders what course of action to take next. With Jacen's death, "[Jaina's] headlong progress [to rescue Jacen] had been stopped short, and she felt as dazed as if she'd flown a landspeeder into a tree."

Hence, it is my supposition that Jacen deliberately (whether out of pain or otherwise) sent an agony over incredible distances in the galaxy to many different Jedi in hopes of feigning his death. Why? Because Jacen knows as well as anyone else that the YV require both twins for sacrifice. If Jaina returns for him, she may very well help the YV in these plans.

Only Leia is strong enough in the Force and close enough to Jacen to see through him.

 

-Vergere-

I think you hit it on the head there. Mothers can see through their kids. Heck I could never get anything past my mom and she wasn't close to being one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy. Plus the fact that Tenel Ka sensed his warmth first. I believe there is love there and when Jacen reached out to fake his death he couldn't help but to give Tenel Ka a warm touch when his senses crossed hers. He may not even know he did it.


I do think the NJO gods have limits as to how far they will go. Killing one Solo Child may "shake things up" But killing more than that would be going to far. I really doubt they would do that. Who knows for sure? I just doubt it myself. Plus I agree with what someone else said. I Doubt that the death of a major Character would first appear off page.

 

Good points, -Vergere- and Doright.

Luke could have doubts now, as well.

Face Loran, there was no evidence to support that in DJ.

If Jacen was trying to discourage a rescue attempt, as you stated above, why would he include Kyp. I don't think there is any Jedi who needs less discouragement to rescue Jacen Solo, than Kyp Durron.

As much as Kyp dislikes Jacen, he is still working on the same side of this war. A rescue attempt from a rouge Jedi trying to prove to the Galaxy that he isn?t evil (and doing a horrible job, I might add) is entirely possible. The fact that everyone knows that he doesn?t like Jacen just improves the image of Kyp acting selflessly by saving him. At least, that is what I think that Jacen is thinking.

 

Wow, all this speculation is great! There are some great ideas out there! I really believe that what -Vergere- said could actually happen in Traitor! I can't wait to find out what happens! Only 9 months till Traitor!

 

Heck I could never get anything past my mom and she wasn't close to being one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy.

I can relate, Doright - I think we all can relate

Leia was definitely one of the highlights of Dark Journey for me.

As for why Jacen sent his agonizing presence to Kyp, why not? The more Jedi that can attest to his death, the more will believe in it, right?

Jaina02 comments...

I can't wait to find out what happens! Only 9 months till Traitor!

As I was reading Dark Journey, I kept thinking to myself, "this stinks!" I mean, we won't get to find out what Jacen is up to for sure until 3 books down the line!

 

Since you enjoy the speculation here is mine. I think when Anakin "returned to the force" he is going to help Jacen to finally defeat The YV. Remember in Balance Point when he couldn't figure out the voice that was like Anakin Skywalker's but not quite...I think Anakin is going to bond through the force with Jacen. In the Jedi Academy Trilogy Luke bonded with Jacen to defeat the Sith vulture creatures using Luke's lightsaber. Jacen is VERY connected to the living force this is why even KYP could feel his pain. Vergere IMO is still an unknown variable. She is well versed in Jedi techniques that were lost in the first Jedi Purge.

Also I think the traitor is Tahiri. Without Anakin she has noone to help her fight the YV demons. No one is reaching out to help her through all this.

How is this for wild speculation

 

Hmmm, interesting conversation, especially because I just got finished with reading Matthew Stover's books last night.

I think we have to take into consideration the title, I mean, it is called "Traitor."

And just to let you know, Matthew Stover is a very dark author. He enjoys his character's suffering, ect.

 

I don't know if he enjoys his characters' suffering. But yeah, Stover's characters undergo emotional and physical struggles beyond good and evil. But they do something about it.

Ok, I've read the last 4 paragraphs of DJ many times over. How do you interpret this:

Left alone, Harrar took his villip and reported to Tsavong Lah what he had promised to say. "Jaina Solo proved to be a far more worthy foe than anticipated," he concluded, "and it may be some time before the twin sacrifice can go forward."

"The gods willed it so," Tsavong Lah said. "Continue pursuit, and we will speak of this matter again."

The villip inverted abruptly, leaving Harrar deep in speculation. His failure was not dealt with as harshly as he expected, and the priest of deception wondered if perhaps he was not the only one who had failed.

Was it possible, he wondered, that Jacen Solo might not have survived, after all?

Some questions here. Might not have survived what?! And who else failed in Harrar's mind and how does this "other failure" relate to Jacen not surviving?

 

"Might not have survived what?!"

The shaping?

?

JMA

 

Ok, but who failed in Harrar's mind, do you think? And, more importantly, how does this failure relate to Jacen not surviving?