Discussion in 'EU Community' started by -Vergere-, Oct 14, 2001.
Yeah, but nothing in his vision showed that HE was going to kill Luke, only that Luke would die.
Isn't that what made him a good bad guy, though. The fact no one wanted him to turn to the darkside, and the fact that it happened, was just Del Rey creating a villain everyone loved to hate. You can't write a billion SW novels and expect no one to go dark. I think the fact Jacen Solo was the hero of the galaxy made his fall all the better and more tragic. It made the true Solo son even more great when you go back a reread NJO.
Well said, HighLadyFel.
Thank you. Though i can't take credit for it. I had similar views to SiouxFan on Jacen Solo, but then a friend explained it to me, and Jacen Solo officially became (in my opinion)one of the greatest EU characters ever.
The Tragedy of Jacen Solo is officially my favourite part of Star Wars.
From The Joiner King to Apocalypse, it works very well. Necessary reading being I, Jedi, Planet of Twilight, Traitor and The Unifying Force to get to that point, but good enough.
Yes, Jacen Solo's tragedy is the best(beats Anakin Skywalker's by a landslide).
His intial fall, i believe, really got going in DNC. Up until that point in time though, I didn't consider his falling at all. For example, Traitor is in NJO because it's about the Yuuzhan Vong not Caedus. That book is an amazing Jacen Solo book, but should not even be in the frame when it comes to Caedus. It's just really about Jacen maturing as human and Jedi.
Well, I include it because Vergere is heavily referenced by Lumiya and so forth.
Without her, I am unsure whether he would fall.
I didn't like the fact Vergere was a sith. She seemed too...neutral, having her own agenda. Vergere was a mentor, and a friend. She spent fifty years with the Vong, what she did to Jacen was just a set up for how she wanted to leave the galaxy. The reason he turned was because he was so focused on having peace in the galaxy, he was willing to go to the darkside for Allana's future.
I personally consider she is above Sith and Jedi, like Kreia, Revan and Jacen himself. There are many Jedi and Sith that are very much above those titles.
Oh yes, the reason he fell was that, but his mentality was influenced by Vergere as well. Abeloth's Throne of Balance seemingly broke Jacen so Lumiya could shape him, but Jacen's fall is a culmination of Vergere, Allana and Lumiya.
I'd be tempted to include Rebirth as well in that.
Exactly! That is the perfect way to put it
Vergere shaped the way he thought, but i don't think the darkside was her ultimate goal. Lumiya on the other hand wanted full and well for Jacen to turn. It may seem harsh or sad, but Allana was a major part in his fall. I wonder if Luke will ever tell or somehow reveal that to Allana or Ben sometime in the future.
Rebirth was part of that whole maturity thing as well, but more as a Jedi. The writers didn't even think about his fall at that time. Jacen's changes in NJO just seemed to work to their advantage in LotF.
Oh, so another fall to the dark side by trying to prevent a vision about a loved one from happening really works? Darth Vader II is not my idea of good story telling, not by a long shot. I can't see Jacen Solo, not after he became the hero of NJO, ever falling to the dark side!
Jacen Solo is not Anakin Skywalker. While the galactic hero Jacen Solo turned to the darkside trying to save the galaxy from darkness, the whiny Jedi Knight on the Council Anakin Skywalker turned to the darkside for power lust.
That wasn't Jacen Solo, that was somebody called Jacen Solo. Jacen Solo was the hero of NJO, not this rehash of his grandfather, Anakin Skywalker, during the Clone Wars.
Well, it's Anakin Skywalker had he succeeded in changing his vision.
There is nothing remotely 'rehash' in the Killik Crisis or Abeloth. The Corellian Confederation has echoes of the Confederacy, of that I have no doubt, but it's not the same story, and politically it's an entirely different war. Jacen went out of his way and spent the entirety of Bloodlines trying to avoid Anakin's fate. And he did. He succeeded, and failed, at the same time... while Anakin failed, and succeeded, at the same time.
The visions were different, the journey was different, the war was different, the aftermath was different.
It's the same theme - because it's Star Wars - but it's also not.
Jacen Solo still is the hero of the NJO. He forever will be.
Without Jacen Solo, we would have lost the Yuuzhan Vong War.
That is, and forever will be, a fact.
No attempt at redemption, no sale.
Very well spoken Sinrebrith...honestly i don't know how to add anything to that. Except that, those reasons are the reasons we are having this conversation. Jacen Solo is a great hero of Star Wars, a universe we all love.
All I see with LotF is the PT without the OT to make it a happy ending.
Jacen Solo was transformed into just as big of an idiot, no, an even bigger idiot than Anakin Skywalker.
At the very least Anakin had a relationship with Palpatine that was cordial. With Lumiya... good friggin' lord that was just inane.
And on, Sinre. it was one of the stupidest things to come out of SW recently. It was the final gutting of the next generation, a true wall-banger of Battlefield Earth proportions and just plain moronic. And then the PTB try some dumb retcon to attempt to salvage the situation. It failed.
I happily disagree.
Which is why we're having this discussion, after all.
Jacen took a decade and a half to fall. That's not immediately, though.
Lumiya took the place of Vergere's relationship, that's all.
I wasn't much of a fan of Jacen until I read Traitor, and his descent from grace in LOTF further bolstered my love for his character tbh.
Let me rephrase that sentence.
I see LotF as a betrayal of Traitor, because having Jacen fall, immediately says the philosophy is flawed, without actually saying the philosophy is flawed.
To me, Vergere isn't a Sith, and Jacen Solo didn't fall to the dark side.
To me, Vergere isn't Sith, but Jacen did fall, but he only 'fell' after Allana was recaptured by the Jedi. He was a raving nutter until Invincible when he resumed control of himself. He chose the dark side.
The philosophy of the 'Ends justifies the means' is flawed. Because it relies upon an objective scale of the means. When Jacen's became subjective i.e. I'm going to save Allana but mask it beneath the decision to save everyone, that's when the flaw developed. He would sacrifice one life for another which he decided was more valid. Nelani over Luke, in Betrayal.
I liked him a lot in YJK, but no so much in LOTF.
I agree with this. There was actual discussion and internal contemplation in Traitor to show the change in Jacen's philosophy taking place. Get to LOTF and suddenly he's deciding to become a Sith without any thought on the idea whatsoever. Accepting the words of some person who's never done anything except cause his family harm. I still don't understand the jump from TUF Jacen to Betrayal Jacen. The change in personality I can let slide, but simply the way he thought is something I didn't understand. It also seems to me that at some point he started to have a more orthodox view and just believe in the Dark Side again.