Discussion in 'EU Community' started by -Vergere-, Oct 14, 2001.
We're kinda like the crazy uncle no one ever invites but shows up anyway!
I thought he was acting strange in the Swarm War books also. I often wondered why somebody (meaning Luke or Jacen's parents) didn't insist that he get psychological counseling when he returned from the war. The man was held captive by lunatic aliens and tortured for months (or was it years?) and then he disappears for years searching for Force knowledge. He comes back with new abilities and acting cagy...but nobody really insists he get evaluated for PTSD or any other stress related problems. I am not sure how they could have forced him into therapy if he didn't want to, but a note could have went to GAG from Luke saying they might not want to clear him for active duty. That would have saved a whole lot of problems.
My dad had a top secret clearance and worked for the government. If there was any question about his mental stability he would have gotten his clearance temporarily suspended. Do you mean the GA or GAG didn't have their version of the Personnel Reliability Program (seen in the US Military)? They didn't conduct a psychological evaluation of somebody they were going to put in charge of their unit?
Jacen was a great character and had a lot of potential. I think his fall was blasé. The authors should done something else with him. I wouldn't mind if he turned evil, but I don't think he needed Lumiya to lead him. That made Jacen look like a dupe. He should have come to his own screwed up philosophy himself and then let him ride roughshod over the galaxy.
What a waste of a great character.
Yep. As written, he was not very conniving, not very interesting, not very frightening...he became a cartoon bad-guy. His philosophy wasn't screwed up, it was the execution. Even with PTSD, people don't go from loving all life to be willing to eliminate it for the sake of proving a point. (Kashyyk)
I just thought he seemed out of character during his entire fall and becoming Sith. I don't know why, because if anybody had the background to become a Sith it was him. By that I mean being tortured by the Vong. I would have to read the books again, but when Ganner found him...from what I remember he was acting strange, but not evil. It is almost like the decision to make him Sith (by the writers) had not been made until much later. If the writers knew he was destined to become a Sith in future novels, then I think from the time that he escaped the Vong until his fall there should have been more clues as to his mental state, even if it was only internal dialog.
They've stated that they didn't have any idea back during DNT or NJO that Jacen was going to become a Sith, so that could explain it. However, having just re-read Traitor I have to say that a lot of the traits Jacen shows in that novel are extremely similar to those shown by his grandfather, which I find funny considering Caedus is often referred to as Darth Vader 2.0
Really the entire Darth Caedus business was handled sloppily, from the fall to Vergere being retconned into a Sith.
See, I read Traitor again about 5 months ago and I don't see that. I see a kid who's learning that there is more than one way to look at life and the force, that the choices we make are never made in a vacuum, that 'WHY' is the most important question of all.
I tend to think that we look at Jacen through the prism of what they did to him, not as he was....which I find a bit odd because we don't have the same problem with Anakin Skywalker. The 'retcon' of Vergere a horrible waste of everything she fought and died for.
It wouldn't be so bad if there was a clue that I missed and I am frustrated that I didn't see earlier (I know there isn't because she was never written to be Sith). Sort of like The Sixth Sense. I get to the end am I say, "What? No way. That can't be right." So I go back to the start of the movie and then I see all the clues and I feel like a moron.
Unfortunately I didn't see any hint of Sithness in Vergere. The writers said, "Hey, there is nothing proving that she wasn't a Sith...so it's cool." It would be like at the end of ROTS we found out Padme is really a Sith and the twins are really Palpatine's. Hey, it could be true. If Palpatine could hide his darkside from the Jedi...why not Darth Padme?
So I have a question. When Jacen is seen in Beyond Shadows he said he was in Hell or damned do you think we will see evil spirit Jacen in the future books? Sort of like Exar Kun? The writers like to regurgitate storylines.
I point out the similarities, because Traitor, was written by Stover, who also wrote the ROTS novelization, wherein we get a closeup look on Anakin's fall to the Dark Side. When Jacen's struggling with his anger and darkness he acts just like Anakin did, even referring to it in a similar way. I never noticed before this read through, and probably only got it now because I read both so close together. Though there's more there than just Jacen's anger and such. Some interesting questions and concepts are explored as well, and Jacen deciding to simply act and accept the consequences of his decisions is probably one of the most well done pieces out of the entire EU
I see what you mean. I've not read ROTS in a while, so I'll have to go back and re-read it. I do think, however, that Jacen never really had the same anger issues that Anakin did. Even in the TCW novelization, there was a certain darkness to Anakin's psyche that I didn't see in Jacen...although maybe that's just selective memory. Jacen never seemed to be angry at the Vong, he only wanted them to stop hurting him. Vergere teaches him that pain is useful, pain is life in a way and that the Vong have embraced their pain. Jacen seemed to transcend emotions for a time, almost Spock-like in way.
I do agree that his 'choose and act' lesson is the most profound teaching that has ever come out of the EU. Pity we turned away from it.[/quote]
First off, I think that a 'Darth Padme' would have been awesome. When I first heard that the 'Sith' were going to make a resurgence in 'LotF', my first thought was that it was going to be Jaina. I'm still convinced it would have been a better storyline if it had been her.
Back to your question at hand...No, I don't think they'll go that route. Why? It is my belief (and hope) that the new movies are going to take a wrecking ball to this whole damn waste of a storyline post-TUF. I bought Scoundrels as a 'book on tape', and I had forgotten how much fun SW can be. Denning has taken the fun out of even reading the EU, and I'd say that even if it wasn't my favorite character that got 'Sithed' for the purposes of money-making.
Well of course not. There are similarities in their darkness, but Jacen doesn't have nearly the issue with it that Anakin did. Just like even Jaina in Dark Journey doesn't have the same issue. Nor did Cade in Legacy. And so on. There are similarities, nothing more. I just thought it was interesting, because for every similarity there's a difference. Jacen's journey on the reshaped Coruscany sees him delve deep into his psyche and take a long hard look at himself, but at the same time he takes a look at the galaxy around him. That's why at the end along with his revelation on acting and accepting consequences, he decides to embrace and accept the galaxy with an all encompassing love. Whereas Anakin was only focused on himself when faced with his darkness, Jacen focused on himself and through that came to focus on everyone, as he realizes everything is connected and is therefore one. SMH, damn I love Traitor. Excellent novel.
It really is a pity that they took that away from Jacen in favor of having him become a Sith Lord. A terrible, terrible waste. One that doesn't even make sense when you consider the fact that Vergere considered Anakin Skywalker becoming a Sith Lord to have been a waste.
I am currently reading that book. I like it so far. I also liked Aaron Allston's book X-Wing Mercy Kill. I would like to see more stand alone books and not these 15 book series where you need a super-bad villain and you kill off half of the Jedi.
I have a feeling that the Sequel Trilogy will bury the EU. I am not going to cry over it. I would like to see some of our favorite characters in the movies though. That would be nice. They don't need the same backstory, or at least they don't need to go into a huge backstory, but it would be nice to see Jacen and Jaina Solo, Ben Skywalker, Mara Jade along with the big three.
Let Lucas declare the current EU Infinities or Alternate Universe and the Essential Guides currently out are for that particular Universe.
I do think they could keep the EU and work it in if they wanted. They would just have a very long scroll at the beginning of the movie.
Could Jacen flow walk forward? I can't remember how that worked. I think he could. I really need to reread some of these books. I wish he could have went forward and saw his fall and ended the madness before it started.
And was there any evidence that Vergere really was Sith? I know it is now shown in Wookieepedia that she was, but I can't remember if there was any solid evidence other than Lumiya telling him.
It'd be funny if it weren't so sad. For the longest time, the EU had these 'Death Stars' of the month....now we have 'Sith' of the month. Surely Zahn, Stackpole, and Stover can't be the only ones who can come up with original stories.
Yeah, I'm totally okay with the 'Alternate' timelines, but we're pretty much in the minority. To most fans, it's all written in stone, carried down from Mt. Lucas.
Yeah, it's possible to flow-walk forward, but it's a plot device that no one has been able to use in a consistent manner. It'd been nice to have Jacen flow-walk forward and see what he'd done to himself. ***sigh***
No, there was NO evidence about Vergere, which is what p***** me off the most. Don't get me started on Wookiepedia...they've had too many sips of the Kool-aid, IMO. Try to find an entry for Jacen Solo. It doesn't exist. He's listed under 'Darth Caedus'. Anakin Skywalker, yes, Jacen, no. Really? Jacen was Sith for less than a year. Vader served the emperor for almost 20 years, wiped out the Jedi Order, killed untold numbers of people and had a hand in destroying Alderaan. But Jacen's more evil? Please tell me how that makes sense.
I didn't think there was evidence. I really don't think they should label it canon over at Wookieepedia. She should be innocent until proven guilty. Lumiya was Sith and she lies. She could have lied about Vergere. At least if Vergere is not declared that she absolutely was a Sith it would be easier to retcon her back to being a Jedi.
I agree that Jacen should be listed as Jacen Solo and subtitled Darth Caedus. I guess it could be argued that he died as a Sith and therefore he dies with the name. I also want them to change it back to Jacen Solo because I never can remember how to spell Caedus! Couldn't they find a easier spelling name? Darth Duped, maybe?
I read that the Sith don't go into the flow of the Force, but are forever doomed to wander the galaxy as damned spirits. It would be interesting if Jacen haunted the Star Destroyer Anakin Solo. That would be an fun fanfic to read.
I mentioned earlier how while reading Traitor I noticed certain similarities between Jacen Solo and Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, which I found interesting because we as fans, years later, now tend to refer to the former as Darth Vader 2.0. The writers have admitted they didn't have any type of overarching plot between NJO, DNT, and LOTF, so Jacen becoming Darth Caedus wasn't planned all the way back then, it's just a coincidence (Or due to the fact that the ROTS novelization and Traitor) were written by the same amazing author, Matthew Stover. Now i've recently been reading Destiny's Way and just today I came across an interesting passage, one that contains another coincidence:
"Once he'd joined Kre'fey, Jacen's experience with the Jedi meld on Myrkr had helped him rise above the weeks of training that he'd missed. And in time it had become obvious that his talents were less tactical than spatial and holistic. Through the Force, and through the combined minds and perceptions of the Jedi, he seemed to gain a sense of the entire battlefield. He could sense where to move tactical elements and when to press an attack and when to hold back or withdraw. With the other Jedi as his eyes and ears, he felt the necessity of moving a squadron here, of pulling back the main body there, of maintaining a hovering threat elsewhere. He couldn't have said why he knew this, he only knew that he knew."
This sounds remarkably like Battle Meditation, an ability that Jacen would later gain after completing his ascension to Sith Master and becoming Darth Caedus. Again the writers have stated they didn't plan things out as far back as NJO, however perhaps one of them read the series and this led to Jacen/Caedus officially being gifted with the ability in later works.
Problem is that subsequent sources have taken it and run with it. The Legacy comics have Krayt's account of his encounter with Vergere, and The Essential Guide to Warfare also suggests that Vergere did indeed give Krayt some Sith training.
Ah, I didn't know that. I didn't really read the Legacy comics. Well that sucks. Once it is in a comic it is considered canon. Just curious...how did Vergere meet Darth Krayt?
He went out toward the edge of the galaxy (after spending years in a Sith tomb learning from the resident Sith ghost, XoXann, one of the Dark Jedi exiled to Sith Space after the Hundred Year Darkness), the Vong captured him, Vergere spent some time teaching him in the Embrace of Pain (a lot like she taught Jacen) - he refused to go along with her plan, and escaped "on the eve of the Vong invasion".
That makes perfect sense.
It makes as much sense as Waru, a bodysnatching Callista, Jaxxon the bugs bunny looking smuggler, Tof spaceships that look like wooden sailing ships, Jar Jar and Ziro the cross-dressing Hutt crime lord.
Thanks for the summary.
Yeah, but a lot of the Jedi had that skill. The idea had started with the Barabels, who were using some sort of 'shared' Force technique to maintain shielding on their fighters as they flew against the Vong. The Myrkr team used a form of the 'Battle Meld' while fighting on that stupid mission. Joruus C'Boath could do the same thing, and I really don't think it to be a 'dark' skill. Jacen was so good at it because of his capability for empathy and because of his skill with working with living beings (what are people but just complex animals). From my view, that passage is a way of explaining how there is NO one way to become a Jedi, that everyone has their own skills. In the novelization of 'Revenge of the Sith', Obi-Wan remarks that he has always been better with animals than with machines and that is one of the reasons he and Anakin complimented themselves so well. Once again, a relatively small plot device gets blown WA-AY out of proportion (see: flow-walking) by other writers of the EU and then we all point at it and say...'Well, the signs were all there.' If we looked hard enough, we could find an excuse to make almost EVERYONE a 'Sith'.
After NJO, LFL looked around and went, 'Crap...now what? Hey....let's do a 'Sith' story. That hasn't been done before.'
Parts of 'canon' can be (and have been) undone, so I'll forgo following the 'party' line about Vergere.
I think the first time we see a "meld" used by Luke's Jedi Order is in Vector Prime.
A lot of them did, but Jacen's the one who ended up gaining an ability that's pretty much exactly how the meld was described in this instance. I wasn't implying it to be a "dark skill", and I wasn't pointing anything out as having always been there, which should be clear because as i've been pointing out the writers themselves have admitted there was no plan dating back to DNT, much less NJO. Simply, as with Jacen's similarities to Vader in Traitor, pointing out that its interesting. And that perhaps even a writer could've just read the series at one point and used it later.
*Is struggling not to find dark Jacen hot while reading Bloodlines*
Is there a tall-dark-and-Solo help group?
This is really interesting because after not having read any NJO in nearly a decade (other than Traitor), then picking up the Dark Nest Trilogy and now being on Bloodlines, I'm not really buying the darkness. I get that it's a conscious and seemingly logical choice on his part, but I find its development lacking. Is that just me?
It seems so far removed from his previous focus on empathy and passive approaches, even after Traitor and his years spent studying the Force. I guess I might have to read back farther to make the connections, whether they planned it that way or not. That said, I don't remember if I even read the Unifying Force...
Nope. I don't think there's a single person who didn't find Jacen's fall to be lacking in some way. Personally, I always felt there were two problems with it from the start. 1. Jacen's willingness to believe anything Lumiya said and 2. His apparent need to feel special. I wish I had my copy of Betrayal on my but I remember one of the key reasons Lumiya was able to convince Jacen was her preying on his own inner weakness, his own dissatisfaction with his life and his apparent need to have some type of special destiny, a life with purpose. All well and good, but that's not a trait Jacen Solo ever showed. Then him believing a woman who has done nothing but cause his family harm, and is then spouting things about his mentor that were never evidenced in her actions/words made the entire thing ridiculous.
At worst I found Jacen to be detached from his relatives and more secretive after his 5 year trip, but that made sense to me, specifically because he spent FIVE years basically alone constantly on the move.
Yeah, no, I agree completely. Then again he is pretty distracted with the constant psycho-analysis of his intentions.
I'm still only on Bloodlines and he keeps talking about testing Lumiya but so far it only consists of bringing her around Luke, which if she has any brains at all, she would see as a test.