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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Jacen Solo Is a great Jedi-Irrifutable Proof !

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sabrajaguar, Dec 23, 2001.

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  1. Jedi_Anakin_Solo

    Jedi_Anakin_Solo Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2001
    Bravo skawookie! I couldn't have put it better myself.
     
  2. Risste

    Risste Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2001
    IMHO:

    A jedi becomes great when:
    1. They come to terms with the Force, or some worldview thereof.
    2. They come to terms with their niche therein.
    3. They act according to that niche and the will of the force (note-, the will of the force-not their own confusion and indecision over it.)

    Jacen seemingly has not yet overcome even the first stage. Therefore I can't bring myself to view him as "great."

    This was not titled as a comparison thread; to prove Jacen better or worse than his brother says nothing about Jacen's 'greatness.' Ergo, leave Anakin out of this.

    To cite the defeat of the Warmaster and the Voxyn Queen as evidence of greatness seems out of place. "Wars do not make one great.", and all that.

    Jacen's accomplishments on the battlefield, let alone when facing only one opponent at a time, (and not to mention opponents that do not see combat regularly,) is no measure of greatness, it is only a measure of his combat skill when compared with his fellows. And again, this is not a comparison thread. Right?


     
  3. skawookiee

    skawookiee Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2000
    Thank you,Risste. That was a very well thought out post. The problem with this whole discussion (if you can even call it that) is that the term "great" does not have difinitive qualities when applied to Jedi. There's not diploma or certificate that a character to have to prove that he/she is a "great" Jedi. It is a subjective term, I've said that over and over. You have to compare Anakin to something or someone in order to know if he's great or not. Since there is not a set standard to compare him to (although the qualifications Risste listed were awfully good), we must compare him to other Jedi. Compared to Ben, or perhaps Tahiri or Corran's kids, Jacen is indeed a great Jedi. When you hold him up to that standard, he is great. When I hold Jacen up to the standard of Luke, Anakin, Obi-wan, Qui-gon, Yoda, and Jedi such as them, I cannot see Jacen as great. Our point in the comparison is that there is not "Irrefutable Proof" that Jacen is great. It all depends on how you look at it.
     
  4. Sabrajaguar

    Sabrajaguar Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2001
    Besides his combat skills. what else is there to measure his greatness?

    Wars made Hurculese great, and Odyssus, And Agamemnon,(forgive the misspelling i am terrable with greek heros)

    Jacen Solo is just another mythological Hero. And only one of 8 years (Realtime)
    so why wouldent wars make him great.
     
  5. Tahiri

    Tahiri Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 9, 2001
    Sabrajaguar, wars bring out the warriors, and both Anakin and Jacen are warriors -- just different types. Whichever one you like depends more on the preference of the person, and you can't say one is better than the other because they're both great in different ways.

    For example, Anakin is my favorite, but I do agree that Jacen is a great Jedi, in his own way. Like it was said in DT, quite a few times, there are different paths to the same goal. Jacen and Anakin and Jaina are all walking on their own paths to become great Jedi, and each path has separate obstacles and challenges that each one has to face. Only if Jacen and Anakin were walking the same paths to this goal, THEN you could compare them fairly -- but they're not. I think they're both great in their own right, but I think and like Anakin is better because that is my own opinion. It's not fact, but opinion.
     
  6. skawookiee

    skawookiee Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2000
    Well, since you brought it up:
    According to all of the LOTR hype, I've become quite the Tolkienite. It is my opinion that Frodo and Sam are two of the greatest heroes ever. They have absolutely no combat skills. Frodo Baggins is a hero because he knows that it is his destiny to bear the One Ring. He knows that he must carry it to Mordor and destroy it at the cost of his own life, or even the lives of his friends. He is a greater hero in my eyes than Jacen is, for Jacen does not seem to want to accept the responsibility that fate has dealt him. Sure, he can fight at times, but only when HE or some one HE is close to is in danger. He will not fight or sacrafice for the greater good, as Frodo and Anakin did. That is the measure of a great hero. Not fighting ability, not the actions one does when they are threatened, but the heart of one who will stand up to evil and resist when he knows it's right. That is something Jacen has not come to grips with yet, although I believe he is getting closer. Wars do not make one great. Combat skills are not the measure of greatness. The heart and the will are the ultimate standard for greatness.
     
  7. Lordban

    Lordban Isildur's Bane star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    I'd see Jacen closer to Sam on that kind of comparison.
     
  8. Jedi_Anakin_Solo

    Jedi_Anakin_Solo Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2001
    "The heart and the will are the ultimate standard for greatness."

    GREAT! Anakin has both of those :D!
     
  9. Sabrajaguar

    Sabrajaguar Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2001
    I DONOT assosiate greatness with Exellence.
    what I consider great ina jedi most would concider Good or Fair

    There is a Big Differance between a great jedi and the Best jedi, or the elite jedi.

    For me a Great Jedi is a jedi who preforms above and beyond his/her/its call of duty. Cagill is an exellent healer but i would not call her a great jedi.
    While Mara Jade Skywalker is a jedi Godess in my book.
    "No particular order".
    Exellent jedi: Luke,Mara,Kyp,Corran,Solusar,Katarn,Eelysa, that Barbel woman,Add your personal here______ect.(The Dorsk who toasted him self on force)

    Great jedi:
    Ganner, Jacen, Jaina, Anakin, Tenel ka, Zekk, Skidder,Dasha Cor,Ramas, lowbacca. Ect.

    Good jedi:
    Raynar, Relga, Eryl, The elder Rar sister, The twi'lek Lah killed. The Dorsk killed on Ando. Honerable mentions.

    Bad jedi:
    those who have repeatedly harmed others, in and during personal vendettas and are not remoresful.
     
  10. skawookiee

    skawookiee Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2000
    Hhhmmm. I'm afraid you're splitting hairs there. I would consider Cilghal to be a great Jedi. She selflessly puts herself on the line each and every time one of our heroes gets sick. She knows what her job is and does it very well. She has the heart and the will of a great Jedi. I don't know about Mara. I guess she would be a great Jedi, but not as great as Cilghal, Luke, Anakin, or any of the PT Jedi, IMO.
     
  11. Tahiri

    Tahiri Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 9, 2001
    Ahhhh I have to finish reading that book! I'm on like, page 20-something of Fellowship of the Rings...it seems really good though :)
     
  12. skawookiee

    skawookiee Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2000
    Cool! I'm about 3/4 of the way through the Two Towers. It's really good!
     
  13. Sabrajaguar

    Sabrajaguar Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2001
    As Greatness is conserned I look at Tanis Half elven.

    Tanis being a Human/Elf Hybred Was despied by most other elves. Outcast, he spent his life as a mercinary and hero for hire.

    when the 3rd dragon war came about Tanis put the past behind him to fight with the Heros Of The Lance. And nearly scarificed himself, His friends, his Babe in a extreamly risky gambit.

    And though he wanted to save her he left his ex To the forces of darkness because It was her Choice and he had to respect it.
     
  14. Sabrajaguar

    Sabrajaguar Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Dec 22, 2001
    PT jedi? whats that?
     
  15. skawookiee

    skawookiee Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2000
    Prequel Trilogy. I sort of made that one up myself, I didn't know if people would get it or not. I'm mostly talking about the Jedi in the Ongoing comics. Mace Windu, Ki Adi Mundi, Sharad Hett, A'sharad Hett, Quinlan Vos, Tholme, etc.
     
  16. -Vergere-

    -Vergere- Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2001
    I apologize in advance for my comments here if they've been discussed already. I've only skimmed through some of the earlier posts in this thread.

    Just wanted to add my 2 cents.

    Evaluating a Jedi's "greatness" is highly subjective. That is not to say our opinions are wrong; only that each of us readily relates to a certain characterization most easily. Myself included.

    Does Jacen's "tantrums" with the Force and his strong defensive stance make him stupid? Does Jacen's reservations with killing make him a coward?

    Let's assume that the answers to these questions are a resounding "yes" for just a minute.

    Let's conduct a hypothetical experiment for fun. Consider for a moment all of Jacen's current nuisances and just plain stupidity in thinking. Also consider Jacen's remarkable feats in the NJO despite his setbacks (because surely you cannot deny there hasn't been any "remarkable feats"). Now let's take all the problems we have with Jacen Solo and improve them by 50%. Another words, every problem we find with Jacen Solo is halfway on its way towards our vision.

    What conclusions can we draw from the result? Do we really believe that Jacen can best serve the GFFA against the YV according to our visions or according to Anakin Solo's stance? And if so, are we really saying he would make a much more effective Anakin Solo than Anakin Solo ever did? Because despite Jacen's "regressive" and problematic beliefs, Jacen has accomplished quite a bit. So a Jacen in terms of Anakin Solo or our vision would not only be perfect, but surely "great" beyond anyone's wildest imagination considering his current history in the NJO. Completely repetitious and boring as far as I'm concerned. Character flaws make one interesting, not perfection. And certainly Jacen has many flaws.

    What's the point? The point is, a Jacen Solo in terms of our beliefs in Jedi greatness is completely pointless. :p Jacen best serves the GFFA in the capacity he feels best. Not liking to fight. Not believing that a Jedi should be forced raise a saber or deflect one raised at you to protect. Only in these terms can Jacen effectively support a GFFA's cause against the YV. Not in any other.

    In my estimation, Jacen embodies everything it means to be a "great Jedi." Why? A Jedi fighting for peace during a time of war enhances that Jedi's sensibilities and potential for success in every possible way imaginable. And this war will end on the heels of a Jedi best capable to project the peace within. In Vector Prime we were treated to a glimpse of this Jacen Solo and he will come full circle before the end of the NJO IMHO. A journey in the middle is inevitable.
     
  17. ThrawnsHand

    ThrawnsHand Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2001
    I think Jacen is the greatest of the new jedi. To me it seems like everyone thinks they know how to defeat the YV. No one shows the indecision, the worry as much as Jacen. He openly admits that he doesn't have the answers to everything and doesnt try to cover it up by slashing up YV to kill time. He knows he will be a better asset to the jedi when he does figure out who he is. He is trying to find himself and I think thats why he is one of my favorite characters. Because he doesn't know what he is or what he's suppose to do and that speaks alot to me. He feels more human to me, he is searching for himself and when he finds it I think he will lead the Jedi to defeat the YV and strengthing and help redefine the Jedi ways.
     
  18. loontexas

    loontexas Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2001


    indecision is NOT the way of the jedi (didnt yoda say there can be no hesitation for a jedi?). i think this is the reasonw hy jacen is among the worst jedi of the new 'order'.

    anakin, on the other hand, understood both the positives and negatives of completing a mission without hesitation....doing what needs to be done and making sacrifices, while all jacen could see was 'what if's and 'they cant's. he still hasnt gotten grips on his ability to judge others, which he seems to spend too much of his time doing.

    even luke was beginning to understand that sometimes the jedi are just going to have to get their hands dirty to get the job done, and run the risk of the darkside rather than hide from it and allow others to suffer for it. jacen hasnt got this yet.

    but he is only a teenager, and thats what teenager do. he, just like most young adults, is still trying to understand who he is, and the way hes doing that is by looking at himself in contrast to others, and seeing his own positives in the negatives he projects onto his fellow jedi. its understandable in life, but not in a war. ask anyone who was drafted at a young age whether they could endanger the mission by second guessing their orders, or judging the people there to watch their backs. theyll all say you wont live long acting that that.
     
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