Jacen vs. Anakin - Who is right ? (Potential Spoilers)

Jacen and Anakin, were in conflict about the way the Jedi react to situations. In TPM, we see that Ob1 and QGJ are not aggresive but arent pacifists either. Was Anakin right or is Jacen right, or will he again change his mind ? Kyp is to aggresive, and Jaina at the same time, but will Anakin methods really work (the best defence is a good offense) or wil Jacen's thoughts bring clarity (the means do to not authorise the methods) ?

 

Neither is really wrong, but I think Jacen's approach is better. Anakin's way is too close to the dark side, and if he wasn't so strong, he might have fallen. Jacen's way is riskier, but his methods have definately worked

 

"Anakin methods really work (the best defence is a good offense)" - This philophy can't work for the Jedi. Offense by nature is aggressive, and Jedi can't be aggressive. In that case Anakin was wrong. The force is much more then tool for the Jedi to use. The force is an ally, not a tool

"Jacen's thoughts bring clarity (the means do to not authorise the methods)" - That part of Jacens philophy is right, however hes too pacifist. Theres a difference between a Jedi attacking someone with their lightsaber (striking first) and counter attacking. Thats the difference Jacen needs to grasp.

 

In the duel of the fates, QGJ and OB! attack first and OB1 does to a certain extente avenge QGJ death . . .

 

"In the duel of the fates, QGJ and OB! attack first and OB1 does to a certain extente avenge QGJ death"

No, watch the movie. Qui-Gon tells Padme straight out "We can only protect you, we can't fight a war for you". When the naboo attack the Jedi stay close to Padme and basically protect her. Once Maul enters they know they have no choice. If they don't fight Maul he'll just cut through Padmes guards like butter. Maul strikes fight in the fight. And yes Obi-wan attacked first after Qui-Gon died, but look at his face Obi-wan was getting angery there, closer to the darkside then normal. Thats also in the difference part I mentioned. Jacen would say Obi-wan shouldn't have, but he was in the fight already. He didn't go looking for Maul. Its the difference between going out and looking for VY to fight, and fighting a Vong thats there, attacking you.

 

They're both right. Each view fits a differnet situation. They're different parts of the same equation. As far as Anakin's role goes, just to premept any anti-Anakin crap. According to many Jedi, Anakin was the most important Jedi of the war for a time. Anakin at certain points embodied the Force, he found his balance before he died. He was a rallying point and respected by both sides of the Jedi. You can dither over philosphy all day long but the fact is that the Jedi need to *FIGHT* in order to beat back the Vong. Maybe Jacen will find his balance and defeat the Vong and maybe he won't but the fact is the Vong aren't going to go away by debating the role of the Jedi. This same arugment we're having now is the reason why the Jedi lost the initative from the start of the invasion. Mace, Yoda and the others wouldn't have debated over aggresion while worlds were being obliterated. According to the NJO sourcebook the Jedi are being forged into a mighty weapon that will peirce the heart of the Yuzzhan Vong.

 

By that logic a good little Jedi would let the Vong take over every system in the galaxy except one where the Jedi retreated to and *then* they would start fighting.

 

The problem with the Jedi in the NJO is that Luke isnt strong enough, Anakin could have rallyed the Jedi maybe even Jacen or Jaina if they had wanted to, but Luke is not a leader Leia is and thats what the Jedi need ! a leader not a teacher ! but that another issue . . .

 

That's not really true. Luke is finally starting to lead the Jedi, and he's telling them that fighting back is okay. Anakin was an example of what a real Jedi could be. But Anakin wasn't a true leader. Luke is.

 

Anakin SOLO was a great leader he gave his life for his team and his mission worked, Luke has done nothing to unify the JEdi since the invasion !

 

I would have to say that neither Anakin nor Jacen is completely right. Anakin is, as has been mentioned by some of the other, a little too quick to act. Jacen, however, is far too pacifistic. He's almost pacifistic to the point of being destructive. By saying this, I mean that his philosophy hurts more than it helps. I think Luke is actually taking the right path. He waited to involve the Jedi in the war until he had santion from the New Republic, just as the Jedi of the Old Republic were called upon by the Supreme Chancellor. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but hasn't Luke's philosophy been one of trying to work things out before resorting to the lightsaber? One needs only look at DFR, the scene in the Mishra. (sp?) Luke uses the saber to break up a fight, and then works out a negotiation. The Jedi should function along the same route. I would say that on a spectrum, Luke is probably somewhere just to the Jacen side of the middle, with Jacen at one extreme and Kyp at the other.

 

Hmnn I think neither was quite right. Jacen hadn't/hasn't made up his mind yet. And Anakin hadn't worked it all out yet either for some reason I think they were both rather close. The path is different for each individual, the force is very flexable.

 

A quote from JE.

That would be Anakin and Jacen.
Complementing one another, no doubt.

They are different, but neither is necessarily bad.

 

It's like saying "What is beter, apples or oranges?"

Neither of them, I believe are completely right but they are both right to a certain extent. Anakin's more proactive view of the Force and his willingness to act has provided benefits and I think that learinign about the Vong was a very good idea. Jacen's more reactive view is also right in the fact that Jedi may stray over to the Dark Side with the more proactive approach especially the less experienced ones. (Alema Rar and Jaina)

 

I believe Anakin had it right. Not Jacen. A Jedi's role always seems to be a fine line. Anakin's only mistake was that he got into a litte more than he bargained for. The Jedi are the protectors of the galaxy, not themselves. "Knowledge and defense", all very good and well, everyone is happy. Except those who are being massacred by the Vong. The Jedi have to take an active offensive role, otherwise the Vong win. If every Jedi followed the "code" as strictly as they should, then they wouldn't fight until an army of Vong knocked down their bedroom door and charged in. And lets not forget Anakin's little display in SbS before he died. Comsumed by the light? C'mon, he had to be doing something right.

The Jedi NEED to walk that fine line between the light and dark. Thats the challenge. They all knew what they were getting into, and thats one of the reasons the Old Jedi died off. I also think it has to do with how strong the individual is aside from the force. Will power. Anakin Skywalker didn't have it, he fell. Luke Skywalker did have it, he didn't fall. Besides, I think a little dark-side helps once in a while. Do you think the remaining Jedi could have escaped Myrkr without further casualties if Jaina didn't go ape-s@#%?

 

I must agree with Justified.....

A Jedi is a protector, he defends against the darkside ..... which is all evil.

But a Jedi does not walk on that thin grey line between Light and Darkside, a Jedi is that thin grey line .......(If you like I can explain that theory for you)

A Jedi is only branded light or dark based on his feelings, and his feelings show the true meaning of his intent........(The Emperors Hand is a perfect example, read Spectur of the Past .... it sheds a bit of light on my theory)

So I say that Jacen is right based on his feelings and Anakin is right based on his....

The Force is our ally which when embraced correctly can be used as a tool......

 

Compare the battle of Jacen vs. Tsavong Lah to Anakin?s last battle. The way that they channel the Force is almost identical. Both of them try to dip fully into the Light Side of the Force, with dramatically different results. They both get the power they need to complete the task at hand, but whereas Jacen survives and thrives, Anakin?s cells start exploding.

Now, why would the Light Side of the Force nurture and protect Jacen and kill Anakin? As far as I can see, there is only one explanation. Jacen and his intentions were pure enough, exactly or almost exactly in line with the intention and attitude of the Light Side. Anakin?s? were not. The Light Side gave him the power he needed, but he wasn?t mentally and/or emotionally and/or philosophically ready for it, and it killed him.

Jacen, confused as he might be by times, is more true to the Light Side than Anakin was. And as shown by Jacen?s vision in Balance Point, it is only with the Light Side that the Vong will be beaten.

There is no fine line for a Jedi to walk down. There is only Darkness and Light. Look at the accomplishments of Dark Side users, and show me some good they accomplished while on the Dark Side. Emperor Palpatine, who destroyed the Jedi Knights and enslaved a galaxy. Darth Vader, Palpatine?s partner in crime. Ulic Qel-Droma, who conquered star systems and killed his own brother. Exar Kun, who enslaved and conquered his way across the galaxy. Kyp Durron, who mind-raped Qui Xux and wiped out the Caridan race. Even Luke Skywalker is haunted by what he did while on the Dark Side of the Force.

There is no fine line for a Jedi walk down. The Dark Side leads to pain, suffering, and death. It might seem promising, and it might look like if used in moderation it might be a good thing, but it lies. Anger, aggression? of the Dark Side are they. The Light Side is a far more difficult road to walk, but it has its own rewards, and has yet to lose in the long run.

Anakin looked at the Force as a tool. Nothing could be further from the truth. Anakin?s attitude towards the Force shows blatant disrespect and misunderstanding of the Force. The Force is greater than any Jedi, greater than all the Jedi, greater even than the sum of its parts. And everything in existence is a part of it.

 

Luke used the dark side, or inklings of the dark side to defeat Vader. Without doing so, he would have been doomed. If Vader hadn't been defeated, the he wouldn't have been able to catch Palps off guard a toss him into that pit.

Yes, Vader at this point was on his way back from the dark side through his feelings for Luke. However I'm sure that he would have killed him if given the chance. Not doing so would bring the wrath of Palpatine who was right there.

This fine line I refer too wasn't so prevelent in the old order, but it was there. Emotion can lead to the dark side. Therfore marriage and such are off-limits. But you can't deny a father-son bond between a Master and his apprentice. Cannot be done.
The new order is pretty much all emotion between the Jedi. That is the fundamental difference between the two. That in itself is the fine line. Put yourself in any random Jedi's shoes in SbS during the Myrkr mission. Aside from the physically painful start, everything seemed to go off without a hitch. They (you) stayed together, fought off foes effectively and that was enough to keep you sane and level-headed. A few unfortunate occurances later and a few Jedi lay dead. Anger at the loss of fallen comrades and new found fear of the circumstances they are in put them close to the edge. And its all they (you) can do to keep from falling into dissolution (the dark side).

Now say you're bringing up the rear of the group and a Vong pops out of nowhere. For the sake of argument, assume nobody else but you knows about it. You ignite your lightsaber and get ready to cut him down. Now through all the death, anger, and fear you're experiencing from this trip, how can you be sure that you're not killing him because you want to? These things have not only wreaked havoc on half the galaxy, but killed half your Jedi brethren right in front of you. THAT is the line. Especially in this case. Are you killing in defense, or because you want them to die? In those circumstances it may be hard to distinguish between the two.

 

Jacen and Anakin represented two extremes in the Jedi. Neither was right, and neither was wrong.

 

Luke almost failed when he touched upon the Dark Side in his battle with Vader. It wasn?t until he realized that he was about to make the same mistake his father did that he turned back. Luke didn?t defeat Vader and the Emperor when he forced Vader to the ground and lopped off his hand. Luke defeated Vader and the Emperor when he threw his lightsaber away.

The old orders prohibitions against marriage are an example of the flaws in the old order, and are irrelevant in the context of the NJO. Love can never be of the Dark Side. When a Jedi fights, it should be for love, for peace, for his friends and family.

Look at Jacen?s attitude in the battles that he has won, and in the battle he lost. Against Tsavong Lah, he was just trying to rescue his mother. Against the Voxyn Queen, he pities the creature and wishes that there was another way. And in his battle in Onslaught, where a single average Vong warrior defeats him, he?s thinking of how great it will be to rescue the slaves. When a Jedi starts thinking of revenge, when a Jedi allows anger to taint his actions, he is weakened. In Jacen?s point of view sections in Star by Star; even after seeing his friends and allies killed by the Vong, what he feels isn?t anger or need for revenge, but pity and sadness. There is no safe line, only right and wrong.

 

KitFist0 wrote:

The old orders prohibitions against marriage are an example of the flaws in the old order, and are irrelevant in the context of the NJO. Love can never be of the Dark Side. When a Jedi fights, it should be for love, for peace, for his friends and family.

I think the problems the Jedi and Luke face now are because those old "prohibitions" haven't been followed.

The Old Order existed for hundreds of years, and they developed those rules because emotions can lead to the Dark Side. The rules were developed to allow Jedi to grow and develop with a level of control, a level that would be difficult to develop without disapline.

The reason Anakin Skywalker becomes Vader is because of his connection with his mother, his feelings of loss and the anger that grows from that. Jedi aren't supposed to have those connections, as they can lead to feelings that make it more possible for Jedi to be enslaved by the Dark Side.

The problem with the New Jedi Order is that there is no disapline. Everyone goes around doing what they think is right, not taking into account the consequences of their actions, acting on emotion and anger.

 

Gandolf, your reasoning is flawed. It wasn't the overwheming lightside surge that killed Anakin! How can a force that only exists from life kill?

Direct quote from SbS:

"Things had gone too far for a trance. He was thirsty enough to drink sweat and his abdomen was hard with trapped blood, and the effort of finding a place safe enough to enter a trance would probably kill him ANYWAY."

Anakin was already dying even before used the force during his last battle.

"Anakin charged back toward the melted membrane, miniature forks of lighting dancing off his arms and legs, the Force swirling through him like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. He was completely filled with the strenght of the lightside now; his INJURED body could hold no more. The energy was burning its way out of him, consuming a vessel TOO WEAKENED to contain it."

It never said Anakin wasn't skilled enough to use the force in as big as way as he did. The force gave him enough power to complete his destiny according to the NJO sourcebook. It was a second chance, one most Jedi never get. And I never saw Jacen beat anyone with a hole in his guts and a ruptured spleen...

 

"By that logic a good little Jedi would let the Vong take over every system in the galaxy except one where the Jedi retreated to and *then* they would start fighting"

No, it means the Jedi can't do what Kyp was going and attack the YV. What if a ship that Kyp destoried was full of YV women and children? Or YV that wanted to defect to the Republic? That puts Kyp on the same level as the YV. It means the Jedi can protect people (like Luke and the rest of the JEdi did in SbS then they took out serveral YV ships). Its like Qui-Gons line - We can only protect you, we can't fight a war for you. The Jedi can help protect the Republic, but fighting the war, offensive missions etc... thats upt ot he NR military.

Gandalf you don't get the reason for the Jedi not being allowed to marry. It keeps the Jedi "pure" and focused. I'm sure part of the reason Anankin will turn to the dark side will be his relatinoship with Padme. Theres RUMORS that at some point in AotC or E3 Anakin will act out of anger because he thinks Padme is dead. If Mara was killed don't you think Luke would go out attacking whoever kiled her, using aggression, getting close to the darkside, if not falling into the darkside? That was why Jedi couldn't marry, love can lead to hate very easly.

 

jaeger wrote:

That was why Jedi couldn't marry, love can lead to hate very easly.

And take it from someone who is married. It really can.

 

I can give you two specific examples where "regular" Jedi have attacked. The Yinchorri crisis and Talflagio. With the Yinchorri we see the Jedi have no qualms about being aggressive when it will save more lives in the long run. At Talflagio the Jedi were "taking the fight to the Vong" and reclaiming hostages. It cannot be called a defense, for how can you defend what has been taken by an enemy. When counter terrorists save hostages from terrorists, it's not defensive, it's taking pre-emptive action to stop the loss of life. Just like Talflagio, it is not pure defense.