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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Jacen vs. Anakin - Who is right ? (Potential Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by KitFist0, Mar 7, 2002.

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  1. jaeger

    jaeger Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2001
    The first one I don't know anything about so I can't comment.

    ". It cannot be called a defense, for how can you defend what has been taken by an enemy" - The Jedi were protecting those people people. Like Qui-Gon and Obi-wan at hte beginning of TPM. They were protecting Padme by saving her from the TF. The Jedi were protecting the people by saving them from the Vong. Theres a difference between a search and destroy misson and a rescuse mission, one is based on offence and its only objective is too kill. A rescuse mission is about protecting people, not killing the enemy.
     
  2. I-poodoo

    I-poodoo Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 1, 2001
    Whoa there. The purpose of the prequel Jedi mission to Yinchorri (jedi Council: Acts of War)was to find their command base, not to attack the Yinchorri. From the very first moment they entered Yinchorri space they were attacked and justifiably acted to defend themselves, but they did not go there with the express intention of aggression.

    About Jacen and Anakin I agree with Gandolf, but I'd like to say that both aren't quite there yet. They were more than likely closer than any other Jedi of discovering whatever the revelation about the force will be, but from two different angles.
    Anakin died, I don't think that reflects upon what he had learned
    Jacen was captured, I don't think that reflects on what he has learned either.
     
  3. Nitro29

    Nitro29 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2001
    This is were that balance in the force that Jacen is so desperately(and annoyingly) trying to find comes into play. And like CeeWulf pointed out that Jacen and Anakin represent both extremes, neither was right or wrong.
     
  4. Anakin1607

    Anakin1607 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2002
    The Yinchorri weren't exactly going to let the Jedi stroll up to the command center without fighting back. The Jedi knew this in advance before they went on the mission. It was an aggressive recon mission. The Jedi themselves lead the final assault on the command center.

    There is a difference between saving hostages and defending them. Defense of hostages would be like Luke, Jacen, and Anakin at Dantooine. In this situation the only option was to attack and break through the Vong lines, destroying the fleet in the process.

    "But we are going to carry the war to the Yuuzhan Vong." Luke Skywalker p.223

    Please explain to me how this is not aggresive? This isn't a one time statment either, the Jedi will continue to attack and defend against the Vong.
     
  5. Risste

    Risste Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2001
    "Now, why would the Light Side of the Force nurture and protect Jacen and kill Anakin? As far as I can see, there is only one explanation. Jacen and his intentions were pure enough, exactly or almost exactly in line with the intention and attitude of the Light Side. Anakin?s? were not. The Light Side gave him the power he needed, but he wasn?t mentally and/or emotionally and/or philosophically ready for it, and it killed him. "--Gandalf the Grey

    I respectfully disagree. SBS mentions several times that the only thing keeping Anakin from dying is the force. He has been mortally wounded multiple times, for goodness' sake. That his cells start to explode comes not because of his draw on the force as an ally, but because of everthing extra that he was doing with it.

    When Jacen defeats Lah, he does so mainly by levitating a roomful of furniture and hitting the guy with it. Not to say that that levitation was easy, but we see Anakin using comparable amounts of force energy to throw boulders while with Mara on, I believe it was, Dantooine? He uproots trees in the jungles of Yavin IV in Conquest, which is arguably a greater telekinetic feat.

    Anyway, my point is that I don't think that Jacen passed some mystical "force-use" test of the spirit,and Anakin didn't. Anakin was standing against a company of top-notch warriors, and Jacen was fighting one guy who for all we know is old, decrepit, and is not fit to be one such warrior. But, perhaps a comparison of what and who they were fighting is not appropriate here.

    More importantly I object to the idea that the use of any amount of force would kill the person attempting to wield it, if their morals weren't in the right place. If that were true, then it should have been simple for Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn to take Maul out of the picture, because Maul wouldn't have had nearly the force strength to call on that they would have.

    Also, if having an unsettled or disheveled spirit leads to less ability to handle the force, how could Anakin Skywalker have ever destroyed the Jedi like he did, Midichlorians or no?

    It also strikes me that Anakin is nothing if not modest while he fights his last battle. He doesn't taunt the warriors, or draw their aggression. He just fights.

    Jacen on the other hand repeatedly taunts Lah and his followers in order to get them off their game during his fight scene. Not to say he shouldn't have, but I think the warrior with more purity of spirit would be the one who was totally at peace and relied on the force to defeat his enemies, instead of the one who relied on his enemies' own hatred to defeat them. The former seems more Jedi-like.

    Thats my two cents on the matter...
     
  6. doctordrinkalot

    doctordrinkalot Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 3, 2000
    I think they're both pretty far off in GL's version of a Jedi. Since GL doens't write the NJO, i'd say Jacen is right. i wear glasses now, i look nerdy.
     
  7. CeeWulf

    CeeWulf Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2002
    I think the opposing views of Jacen and Anakin were developed to help define what the Force is, and how the Jedi use it. Over time, they'll eventually realize was the Old Order Jedi knew.

    Of course, none of the writers can answer that question. Only Lucas can, as it is his creation. So until he answers the question, the books are left to kind of "stall" until he does.

    I think with EII, he's going to do that to a great extent. And, since it's release is fastly approaching, I think the books following the May release will be able to deal with this in a more solid state. To really discuss what the Force is and provide us with an answer.

    As a result, I think we'll find that Jacen and Anakin were neither right nor wrong. They were simply two opposing ends.
     
  8. JediMasterAaron

    JediMasterAaron Jedi Knight star 5

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    Oct 14, 2000
    Awesome thread. I'll post bigtime latah.

    JMA
     
  9. jaeger

    jaeger Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Dec 10, 2001
    ""But we are going to carry the war to the Yuuzhan Vong." Luke Skywalker p.223" - I don't know what was going on when that said so I can't comment on it.

    Fighting in order to save someone is different thenfighting to kill someone. Does someone have to with you to protect you? You don't think Qui-Gon and Obi-wan were protecting Padme when they fought with Maul? A rescuse mission is a form of protection, or attempted protection. As I said, theres a world of difference between a search and destory mission and a resuce mission. For a Jedi the mian difference is one is motivated by agrression, the other by the need/want to protect someone.
     
  10. Anakin1607

    Anakin1607 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Feb 7, 2002
    Regaurdless of motive, the Jedi have attacked in the past (wait until AotC). And I see no reason why it shouldn't be done now. The Jedi are gaurdians, not soliders. Destroying the Vong is the Jedi acting as gaurdians. Look at Mykr, that was an attack whereby future loss of life was prevented. They're protecting what's left of the galaxy from destruction. The only way to prevent more destruction is to beat the Vong and that means attacking them. Now that Luke has overcome his passiveness, the Jedi will strike a death blow at the Vong. No word games will change that.

    I have no clue how Gandolf came to those comments. It's not like this is Indiana Jones, the hero doesn't have to prove his worth in some test. It's just a cheap way of degrading Anakin and his sacrifice and needlessly glorifying Jacen. Jacen beat Tsavong and killed the Voxyn queen, all the power to him. But berating Anakin's sacrifice because you like another character better is just bad form.
     
  11. KitFist0

    KitFist0 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2001
    The old orders prohibitions against marriage are an example of the flaws in the old order, and are irrelevant in the context of the NJO. Love can never be of the Dark Side. When a Jedi fights, it should be for love, for peace, for his friends and family.

    Hey i didnt say that 8-}

    I think Yoda described it best once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny. Thats exactly what happpened to Luke. Now Luke is afraid that his actions will be used to fuel the dark side . . . hence Luke isnt that proactive which the Jedi should be !
     
  12. JediFreac

    JediFreac Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 7, 2002
    In reality, things like right and wrong are rarely so black and white. In literature, particularily EU, there is a distint right (the jedi) and wrong (the vong--that rhymed.

    I would hate for one of the Solo brothers to be "right" because it means the other was wrong. But both are working to preserve life, albiet with different tactics. From a completely machiavellian stand point, in war it's what they do to save lives that matters, not how they went about doing it.

    If Jacen is wrong, the Jedi are screwed.
    If Anakin was wrong, he died for no reason.
    I think they were both on the right track--if only they'd agreed on a balance point.
     
  13. jaeger

    jaeger Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Dec 10, 2001
    "wait until AotC" - Again the Jedi aren't attacking they are rescueing. If the bad guys (I'm being vague) let them have who they wanted, they would have left without a fight.

    "And I see no reason why it shouldn't be done now. The Jedi are gaurdians, not soliders. Destroying the Vong is the Jedi acting as gaurdians" - No they havn't. So far each time you've mentioned they havn't attacked, but acted in a defensive manner. Using that logic that Jedi should attack everyone but themselves. The Hutts should be all killed, all smugglers, the Imperials, and anyone else who might be a threat. The thing is, what if the Jedi attack a group of YV that want to defect to the alliance? or a group of women and children YV on their way to a planet from a worldship, they would become murders. Also if the YV have hostages with them thats the reason for attacking them, however attacking them because they killed so many people the day before is Revenge, something which GL himself said wasn't a Jedi concept.
     
  14. Anakin1607

    Anakin1607 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Feb 7, 2002
    Yeah, sure they would have... ;)
     
  15. -Rhysology

    -Rhysology Jedi Master star 1

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    Oct 25, 2000
    First of all, you don't get to be a Yuuzhan Vong Warmaster by being 'decrepid'. Tsavonh Lah is supposed to be formidable in combat, so Jacen's victory over him was not a light one.

    I agree with the general idea that neither Anakin or Jacen are completely right, although, personally I feel that Jacen is closer to the mark.
     
  16. Anakin1607

    Anakin1607 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Feb 7, 2002
    Except the Hutts don't want to conquer and brutally oppress the citizens of the galaxy. Not to mention doing fun things like gutting them and throwing them into stars. Bottom line, the Vong are not nice aliens. If the Jedi fail to strike back and defeat them then the galaxy is doomed. Period.
     
  17. Caine

    Caine Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Mar 3, 2002

    Or so the weaker and easier Dark Path would have you believe :mad: :p
     
  18. jaeger

    jaeger Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Dec 10, 2001
    "Except the Hutts don't want to conquer and brutally oppress the citizens of the galaxy. Not to mention doing fun things like gutting them and throwing them into stars. Bottom line, the Vong are not nice aliens. If the Jedi fail to strike back and defeat them then the galaxy is doomed. Period"

    You think if the Hutts could conquer the galaxy they wouldn't? And the Jedi are only susposed to defend on a large scale. If one person is being hurt or killed they should't lift a finger, but if a million are its ok to use aggression and other darkside emonations?

    "If the Jedi fail to strike back and defeat them then the galaxy is doomed. Period" - You do realize that the NR has a huge military and a bunch of new battle droids from Lando right? Even in PT, when the Republic needs to fight a big war do they do to the Jedi or make a new army? The Jedi have never beena big military force to be used for attacking. They are protectors, who are bound by a moral code (and going against it has dangerous consequences) they must follow, and part of that says they can't attack, only defend.
     
  19. Risste

    Risste Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Nov 26, 2001
    "First of all, you don't get to be a Yuuzhan Vong Warmaster by being 'decrepid'. Tsavonh Lah is supposed to be formidable in combat, so Jacen's victory over him was not a light one."

    I didn't mean to portray taking Lah down as a light victory, although now I see I could have worded my opinion better.

    I don't remember how exactly promotions are come by for the Vong, but I don't think its a matter of being the best at hand to hand combat. It seems very inane to create a race as intelligent and advanced as the Vong and then have their social order defined by who can kick the most @$$. How childish that would be.

    What I originally meant to say is, we don't have a good estimate of Lah's martial prowess, because we never see him in battle before the one with Jacen. However, I think it is fair to assume that he isn't more powerful or deft than a skilled warrior in the Vong army.

    In the end, my point was that although it may have felt to Jacen at the time of his battle with Lah that he was totally immersed in the force and drawing completely on its power, in fact he was only using a fraction of the force energy that Anakin used in his last battle.

    So comparing the two battles and saying that both force draws were the same, and therefore Anakin "just couldn't handle" the energy because he wasn't philosophically ready for it seems like reasoning based on a false, or at least on an incomplete, premise.

     
  20. Morgoth

    Morgoth Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 28, 2001
    However, I think it is fair to assume that he isn't more powerful or deft than a skilled warrior in the Vong army.

    Lets review. The Vong are a warrior race. Promotion is at least partially decided by martial skills. Only the strong get promoted, and only the strongest keep getting promoted. Strength is one of the few things that the Vong respect. Tsavong Lah has clawed his way to the very top of the Vong hierarchy; only Shimmra himself is higher, and he?s supposedly the chosen of the Gods.

    At one point in Dark Journey, his son easily dispatches three elite Vong warriors at once. I think that it?s fairly safe to assume that his dad is at the very least comparable in skills. And so I think that it?s safe to assume that there are few Vong warriors who are as capable of ass-kicking as Tsavong Lah.
     
  21. jaeger

    jaeger Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Dec 10, 2001
    Well we havn't seen a Vong warrior challange a superors command by combat (at least as far as I know). So just assuming that highest ranking YV are the best fighters might not be right. I seems more like the commanders are choosen at birth or at a young age by the gods, not through combat.
     
  22. JediMasterAaron

    JediMasterAaron Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2000
    Why is everyone here assuming that there is only one correct path to the answer?

    Now, don't get me wrong. I've had this debate many, many times myself, and it's no secret that my personal opinion wants to scream that Anakin is the one who was right. Call him conventional, call him reckless...whatever. To me, he was the most entertaining to read about, and managed to totally embody what a true Jedi was. I've had trouble all along trying to view Jacen as the epitome of what a Jedi should be, ever since he totally gave up use of the Force for a brief time. But like I said, that's just my personal opinion. If I was to look at the situation totally objectively, I would be forced to admit that Jacen's current path may very well be a correct one to understanding the Force. Does this mean it is the only one? Absolutely not!

    What got Jacen really thinking about the nature of the Force? The fact that the YV weren't able to be sensed by it, which seemed to indicate that they weren't part of the Force. I know, I know. He'd been having thoughts along his current lines before the YV came along, but when the war really started was when Jacen's philosophizing (Word?) got really kick started. I think it is fair to assume that with this greater enlightenment he's hoping to reach, once he attains it, he will be able to sense the YV through the Force.

    What Anakin did was prove this was possible. He used his outlook on the Force to reach a similar end. Anakin saw the Force itself as not being the end all, be all, of power in the Galaxy, and there is nothing wrong with that. He felt that the Force itself was only a tool, a tool given to the Jedi by a power much much greater. And he arrived at the same place his brother is trying to, ultimately. In fact, Anakin reached several breakthroughs well before Jacen was able to touch them. He reconciled the Force with YV biotech (lambent), and, for a brief instant, he was even able to clearly sense the YV through the Force. He achieved a part of what Jacen is going for.

    Now I have no doubt that Jacen will be able to sense the Vong, and reach this grand enlightenment, before the end of the NJO. I think it is going to make an earth shattering impact on the series as well. But I feel those who support Jacen wholeheartedly do Anakin a pretty fair disservice, by automatically assuming that just because he was more action oriented than his thoughtful older brother, he was wrong. He was not. He was merely Luke Skywalker at that age. More powerful probably, and certainly more introspective. Just not as much as Jacen.

    In the end, both views were probably correct. Heck, that's why we have a Living Force and a Unifying Force isn't it? Two separate paths, both leading to the same place. I feel that Jacen and Akakin embody the ultimate of those separate paths.

    My two credits.

    JMA
     
  23. Risste

    Risste Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2001
    Ok. I don't have DJ yet, so I didn't know about that scene with the son of Lah. I concede that heirarchy may actually be based on physical skills for the Vong. I still think it's very childish of them to choose commanders in such a fashion, though. How in criminey have they gotten as far as they have in the war when they're led by the strong rather than the intelligent?

    Also, I still think it's possible that being a really good fighter among the Vong isn't directly connected with command, my example being Vua Rapuung. The guy wasn't exactly warmaster, but I got the impression from his successful unarmed combat against all the warriors he killed that he basically could have killed anyone in the Vong food chain that he wanted to.

    I look at it from this perspective: I wouldn't expect Bel Iblis to be the best hand-to-hand fighter in the NR just because he is the one of the best military minds. So I also wouldn't expect Lah to be the best hand-to-hand fighter the Vong have to offer. Making the best bullies into the highest commanders would not result in a military machine with the efficiency and subtlety of the Vong, IMO. Maybe I'm wrong, but at least I would be wrong because I lean too far towards reality, which the NJO is supposed to be bringing into SW.

    By the way, I never said that Jacen didn't accomplish anything, or that anyone else was even capable of doing what he did when he went after Lah. It was a very cool battle. I did think Lah was summarily kicked out of the scene, and wanted him to end up wriggling on Jacen's blade, but it was cool that Jacen just kind of walked in and took the place down. Very non-Jacen like, but very cool.

    In my original point, all I was saying was that the battles of Jacen vs. Lah, and Anakin vs. a company of warriors, are not compatible enough to just say, "Oh, well the fact that Jacen didn't die means he is in the right, and the fact that Anakin died means he's wrong about the force."

    There are other ways to look at the scenarios, and the fact that Anakin was mortally wounded several times before and during his fight, and that he had to fight danger from so many more directions than Jacen had to, meant that the force draw he pulled on was probably greater than that of Jacen during his battle with Lah. Anakin goes through more than Jacen during his huge draw on the force, for instance being able to sense the Vong.

    I just don't think Jacen called on as much force power as Anakin did, and therefore I think it's false to say that Anakin's philosophy was wrong, and that was why he died. I think the fact that he was able to fight the battle and save his team shows more than anything that he was as capable of handling power as anyone.

    I really don't want to start an argument on the Vong heirarchy. That doesn't have much to do with this thread.
     
  24. Anakin1607

    Anakin1607 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Except that all those battle droids and warships haven't stopped the Vong, now have they? The New Republic doesn't even think they can win anymore. The responsibility of saving the galaxy is the Jedi. The only way the galaxy will be saved is if they attack the Vong. Period.

    I'm not trying to trip anyone up. It states in the NJO sourcebok absolutely that now the two Jedi factions have been reunited they will be the forces that strikes at, and hands a death blow to the Vong.
     
  25. Sabrajaguar

    Sabrajaguar Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2001
    Risste.

    Tsavong lah is many things but decrpid is not one of them. Especialy concidering the guy Accended the level of warmaster in the most Brutal sociaty ever depicted. Cheapening Jacen's victory against him is an Injustice to both characters.

    As For lifting trees. Anakin AND Tahiri did it. not anakin alone. And Kyp lifted an Entier Star ship in Dark Journy. Controle is more important than over all raw power where TK is concernd.

    As For who is right. Both are in their own way.

    Jacen is meticulus. Plans ahead. and views every situation Objectivly.

    Anakin Flys by the seat of his pants. Is a tad reckless(not a bad thing) but his hart is good, and his covictions firm.

    Psycho jedi like Kyp are defenetly not needed but.

    Look How Jacen and Anakin pulled the mission off. Jaian was totaly wrong in Dark Journey! Jacen And Anakin Both Accented each other in The mission. Too opposite views Left eye and right Eye coming together to show the whole picture. When Jacen and Anakin decided to stop fighting the Strike team surpassed insurmountable odds and Acheaved their mission objectives.
     
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