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JCC [jahi mcmath] she's dead, jim

Discussion in 'Community' started by Rogue_Ten, Dec 31, 2013.

  1. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    seriously how do i get into a-list grief conselor work? traveling around the country tough-loving these families into pulling the plug. i'd be a rockstar at it
     
  2. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Unless they chase you out of the building.
     
  3. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Yeah, my dad had his mom taken off life support after she had a stroke, and my mom has a good chance of facing the same situation with her stroke victim mother. With heart attack and stroke being leading causes of death, I don't understand how someone could think such situations are rare.
     
  4. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    then ill just peel out of the handicap space yelling "SUCKERS!!" in my yellow lambo with vanity plate "CLTRLIF"
     
  5. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    It'd be funnier if your license plates read "CTRLALTDEL" even though that exceeds the maximum number of letters.
     
  6. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    "mr and mrs mcmath i would like to begin by saying, as useless as my condolences might seem in the face of such a terrible tragedy, that i am truly sorry for your loss. second, id like to ask if youre familiar with the original series of the television program 'star trek'..."

    if their answer was no id say "how about 'star wars: episode ii: attack of the clones?'"
     
  7. darth-calvin

    darth-calvin Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2002
    Just adding my opinion. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you feel so defensive about it instead of just throwing out a snarky comment. I'm simply stating a fact. Unless you are a robot, you cannot predict how you would react in their situation. You can say what you think you would do, what you hope you would do, or what is logical to do, but without going through the emotional pain of it you really can't know for sure.

    Ophelia - sorry you had to go through that with your mom, but my point still remains - it was not your 13 year old child you had to pull the plug on. Personally, I would have a much easier time making that decision for my mother, who I accept is going to die before me, than for my child who I expect to outlive me.

    Also, I can totally see how this family still feels a reason for hope. Especially after reading this article:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html

    Maybe in your eyes the girl's brain death has been confirmed beyond all shadow of a doubt, but the article above proves how doctors can actually be wrong when all other evidence points against it. In this case, the parents' persistence saved their son's life. I'm not saying that is the case here. I do not believe for one second that the girl can recover. But you know - its not my choice and I don't really know how the parents feel so why should I be judging them? In the case of the boy above, I am certain that some people in this thread likely would have said something like, "It's been confirmed by 4 doctors. Time to yank the plug." They would have been wrong and allowed a man to die - a man that they didn't know and had no reason to care about either way beyond the "waste of resources" argument.
     
  8. Eeth-my-Koth

    Eeth-my-Koth Jedi Grand Master star 9

    Registered:
    May 25, 2001
    I am a robot. I'm the terminator. Hasta la vista, baby.
     
  9. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002


    found a valuable media aide online. im on my way. ima be the dr phil of telling people they folks' dead
     
  10. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    darth-calvin, the British kid who recovered from the point of brain death showed improvement after a couple of days. Jahi McMath has been brain dead since December 12. How long is it reasonable to prolong life support?

    I also don't really get what you mean by "judging" McMath's family. Do you mean it would be wrong to morally condemn them? I don't think anyone is saying they're bad people. Do you mean that no one can tell them they are being unreasonable? I don't see why. No particular qualifications are needed to see that they're treading the edge of madness. Do you mean that it's tacky to tell people what they should and should not do with their grief? In general, I'd agree with you, but this is tying up court and medical resources that could be used by other people. We make a lot of allowances for people experiencing profound grief, but it's not a carte blanche to do absolutely anything.
     
    Darth Guy and tom like this.
  11. darth-calvin

    darth-calvin Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2002
    You don't think there's been a lot of judgment in this thread regarding the parents' choices? Have you read the posts? The title?

    My comment was meant to demonstrate that its very convenient for people outside of the situation to say what should be done as if its some easy and obvious choice that they would make. I'm not saying the parents are right in what they are doing. I'm saying that I can see why they are doing it.

    Our history is filled with all sorts of glorified examples of people holding out hope for the impossible and actually have it rewarded when the "miracle" happens. (The entertainment industry is pretty much based on this.) So why is it so surprising that these people are clinging to irrational hope when they've been trained to do just that?
     
  12. Eeth-my-Koth

    Eeth-my-Koth Jedi Grand Master star 9

    Registered:
    May 25, 2001
    Everyday is judgment day. Come with me if you want to live.
     
  13. Obi-Zahn Kenobi

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 1999
    These brutal, terse, horribly flippant conversations about how stupid the family is for pursuing futile interventions belong in the breakroom or in the hallway outside the patient's room with the door closed. Not on the internet.
     
    Rogue_Ten likes this.
  14. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    darth-calvin I don't see judgement in this thread, no. Mockery, yes. Finding something funny is more an aesthetic judgment than a moral one, though.

    I personally find the McMath situation too sad to be funny, but I'm old and tired and gave up modding this forum a long time ago. I'm not going to tell people what they should and shouldn't laugh at.

    I also don't see how the entertainment industry has conditioned anyone to hold out irrational hope. Even if it were true that movies and TV were full of miraculous happenings, why would a sensible person believe what they've seen on TV?
     
  15. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002

    dope post, it made me chuckle a bit but its people like you who cause these grotesque mutations of hope and faith to implant themselves in people like the mcmaths

    i blame you for this
     
  16. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
  17. darth-calvin

    darth-calvin Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2002
    I was actually thinking more of news shows with human interest segments, books, internet stories, talk shows, and culture magazines such as People. I don't think there's a week that goes by that I don't see or hear about some poor soul overcoming incredible odds to survive. "I shouldn't be alive" is practically a meme in our society. How many times have we heard about someone who outlived some dreadful disease even though the doctors gave them an expiration date? But, certainly the number of movies and tv shows that are based on real life events supports what I said as well. The point is, beating death is totally glorified in our culture. Why wouldn't these parents try to do it?

    I have no problem with crass humor and have argued as much in a thread about that over in the (dreaded) senate. I thought the "spare parts" comment earlier was funny. I'm talking more about people who are saying these parents are wrong in their choices and implying that they themselves would be any different if it was them. I also don't think the wasting resources argument is something we want really want to adopt.
     
  18. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002

    Would you be willing to adopt it if the family wanted to keep life support machines and medical personnel idle in their basement? Because it would do both Jahi and the rest of the world exactly as much good.
     
  19. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Rogue_Ten, you could just tell them that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
     
  20. darth-calvin

    darth-calvin Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2002
    I'm not sure where the line would be, but I have to wonder how far you can take it. Why should a person in the advanced stages of Alzheimer's be kept alive in a nursing home? No one has ever recovered from it. They cannot live without support. There is a huge question as to the quality of life. In most instances the people are quite old and going to die anyway. There are a tremendous amount of resources being used to maintain them. The thing is, to some other people that is not a reason to give them up. Ultimately I cannot say they are wrong in that belief because I'm not the one faced with the situation.
     
  21. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002

    I could see the slippery-slope argument if Jahi did not meet all the criteria for being dead. She has no brain activity, her heart does not beat on its own, she does not breathe on her own, her body cannot regulate its temperature, etc. There is absolutely no speck of life there to hang a bioethics question from.

    Jahi McMath is dead, and the dead do not have "quality of life."
     
    tom, Rogue_Ten and Darth Guy like this.
  22. darth-calvin

    darth-calvin Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2002
    Which is how you see it. Obviously the parents don't see it the same. Perhaps their faith lies a miracle from God and not doctors, who have often been proven wrong in the past.
     
  23. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    It probably must cost a fortune for the family to keep her on life support.
     
  24. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002

    No, "the dead do not have a quality of life" is not just an opinion. Death and life are mutually exclusive. Wishing for a dead person to have quality of life is like wishing for a square circle. It's deluded at best and insane at worst.

    And if the family has no faith in medical science, why bother with the machines and the care of medical personnel? They could simply unplug Jahi and wait for the miracle to occur then. God, presumably, does not need ventilators and vasopressor medications to resurrect the dead.
     
  25. darth-calvin

    darth-calvin Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2002
    I assumed this was obvious from the article I posted before, but...I'm not saying the family has absolutely no faith in all doctors or medicine, but that they might believe these doctors could be wrong. They are deciding to remain hopeful in the face of losing their daughter while you are sitting at your keyboard, not knowing what its like for them, saying they are wasting money.

    Or, perhaps they are simply trusting in a lawyer in this time of terrible pain for them. Here is an interesting article on how the parents could only be awarded $250,000 if the hospital is found to be negligent because that is the cap for such lawsuits.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mari-fagel/how-an-outdated-californi_b_4645768.html

    I'd certainly be ticked if this was the case. Perhaps there really is more to this story than just the parents being crazy and unreasonable and in denial.