Jango was ordered to use a saber dart?

Something just occured to me. One of the biggest plotholes in AOTC which alot of people I know talk about is how/why Jango would hire a bounty hunter to kill Padme since he was already a bounty hunter himself and then use a kamino saber dart when it was rare and or unique because of it's markings that it could only be found on Kamino? How did he mess up?

Has anyone considered that he was ordered to use it by Darth Tyranus(who was told to do so by sidious) when Zem failed. So Zem essentially was set up to fail and the real objective was to kill her when after the assination attempt failed and the Jedi had managed to subdue her. And then he killed her with a weapon which would eventually lead Obi-wan to Kamino.
Consider that if Obi-wan had never found Kamino, then the Clone army would have been discovered? Count Dooku couldn't exactly hand over the clone army for obvious reasons, and if Palpatine turned it over then it would make him look suspicious for developing the clones several years before the need for them was even relevant. They had to lead the Jedi there by another means. So Jango didn't mess up, in fact he was expecting Obi-wan.
Now then, why would Kamino be removed from the Archives if that was the case? Because they didn't want Kamino revealed...until they were ready. Palpatine new that once the information pointed to a system on Kamino it would just be a matter of time until they put two and two together and realized that someone had removed Kamino from the archives.
Jango's duty was to lead whoever was on the case to kamino, meet with him, and then get out of there. Considering Jango's attempts to kill Obi-wan I don't think he was intending to lead him to Geonosis, but that was probably what Palpatine had planned all along.

 

Sounds interesting.......

I like it!

 

Jango just made a mistake. Using a blaster from the distance he was at would have allowed the Jedi time to react and possibly block the blaster bolt. Using the dart makes less noise and would not be as easy for the jedi to react too.

Jango never thought that they could trace the dart since Kamino was erased from the archive memory in the Jedi library, and no one there could trace the dart. It was only the fact that Kenobi knew someone who had the knowledge that lead him to Kamino.

 

Jango just made a mistake. Using a blaster from the distance he was at would have allowed the Jedi time to react and possibly block the blaster bolt.

Is a dart in some way special in that it keeps the Jedi from detecting it in the force, I doubt it. The reason they didn't sense it coming was because they were busy using the force to manipulate Zem into confessing who her client was. The dart was used on purpose.

Jango never thought that they could trace the dart since Kamino was erased from the archive memory in the Jedi library, and no one there could trace the dart.

How would Jango know that? He's cool and all but he is a bounty hunter, a hired killer, hence he works for whoever pays him. I don't think the sith would trust him with information like that.

It was only the fact that Kenobi knew someone who had the knowledge that lead him to Kamino.

Right. And that's why he was the one chose to gaurd padme. Palpatine knew the first assaniation attempt would fail, he's her most trusted supporter and advisor, he knew her tactic of using decoys in situations like what happend. But he did it so she would agree to gain Jedi protection. The reason kamino was gone from the archives was so that no one from the order or the republic would drop by unexpected between the Ten years between TPM and AOTC. But by the time AOTC starts everything is ready and it is time to make the next move. Palpatine has been keeping an eye on Anakin and as a result he would know Obi-wan would have the right connections to find out where the dart came from so he made sure he was the one assigned to the task and low and behold, despite that it was gone from the archives Obi-wan found the clone army and the republic was able to organize it, win the war, and later on initiate order 66 which let palpatine take the thrown.

Just think about it for a minute. It makes sense. It was all a trail.

 

Palpatine's entire goal of demonizing the Jedi and disguising his own role in the illegal creation of the Clone Army required that the Jedi be the ones to "uncover" the existence of the army and bring it into action. The Jedi (Obi-Wan to be specific) were being deliberately led to Kamino, and the Saber Dart was deliberately used for that purpose. There is no other explanation for why a top bounty hunter like Jango would use a unique weapon that could be traced directly to the planet where he was staying.

(Deleting Kamino from the archives was important - if Kamino was in the archives the Jedi might think it was too obvious and that they were being led on a wild goose chase. Because they had to work to trace the dart, they had less suspicion.)

 

This is being read into waaay too much.

1. Jango did not expect Zam to fail. Therefore, he did not expect to have to kill her. Besides, the first rule of assination is: Kill the assassin.

2. Jango probably relied on Kamino to supply him with ammo and supplies. That's why he used the dart.

3. He did not expect anyone to trace the dart to him; Dooku (who erased Kamino from the archives) probably assured Jango that Kamino would remain hidden.

...Jango's reaction to Obi-Wan's arrival proves this. He thought he was safe and secret.

 

You're absolutely right. What kind of hitman wants to be traced?

 

one whose job is to lead obiwon kenobi to a clone army on kamino

 

Actually im kida split on this there are parts of this that can go either way.

Palpatine did want Padme dead beacuse she was the leader of the people opposing an army. On the other hand why would he assign Obi Wan and Anakin to protect her if he wanted her dead.

If Jango was ordered to use the dart form kamino why was all information taken out of the Archive, why wouldnt they leave it in. I assume that Obi Wan would have went to Kamino anyway. The thing they couldnt have planned on is that Obi Wan would go to Dex(or whatever his name is) but then why were the clone ready almost exactly in time when Kenobi showed up.

Im starting to think that the original plan went somthing like this.

1.Padme would be killed and this would be considered an act of war.
2.Dooku would reveal himself and tell about the seperatist. Then start conquest of systems
3.Palpatine would make a case for the army, and use Padmes death as an example.
4.Kamino and the Clone army are revealed but i cant figure out how
5.Clone Wars, Jango is now a General
6.Jedi Purge

 

Jango did not expect Zam to fail.

How do you know for sure?

1.Padme would be killed and this would be considered an act of war.
2.Dooku would reveal himself and tell about the seperatist. Then start conquest of systems
3.Palpatine would make a case for the army, and use Padmes death as an example.
4.Kamino and the Clone army are revealed but i cant figure out how
5.Clone Wars, Jango is now a General
6.Jedi Purge

Possible, but number four is still what makes me believe that what happend was palpatine's plan. How would he reveal the army without looking suspicious? The way the army is discovered in the film is of course damn fishy, but it IS intracible to Palpatine and that was what was important.
The only way he could do it that wouldn't make the Jedi suspicious of him in anyway was to have one of their own discover it by "accident".
And of course, there is Palpatine's line at the film. "Everything is going as planned." Now you can argue that things didn't proceed the way palpatine wanted them and he was just saying that, but that would mean that he just go lucky and in "my experience there's no such thing as luck. Plus, considering how almost everything he takes a hand in seems to work out for him right up until his death at the hands of Anakin, I really think he deserves more credit than that.

 

I don't think that the saber dart being traced to Kamino was planned. How would Sidious know that Kenobi would show the dart to Dex? If he wanted it traced back to him, Kamino would of mysteriously been re-added to the Jedi library. As for how the army would be discovered, the Kaminoians themselves could delever the army to the Republic or at least drop the senate a note saying the army is done. As for the "everything is going according to plan" part, overall it is. But I doubt he could of planned every little detail out and everything that happens is set-up by him. Its just that the things that happen not according to plan are not important enough to signifigantly alter the plans.

 

This is exactly what I think. Palpatine's plan all along was for the clone army to be revealed to the Republic by Obi-Wan discovering Kamino. That's why Jango was chosen both to be the source for the clones and to oversee Padme's assassination, which seems illogical at first glance. Palpatine probably didn't care if Padme survived or not -- even if he hoped she would die, he knew he could still deal with matters if she survived. (In retrospect, of course, Padme's survival was far better for Palpatine in the end, but Palpatine can't have known that. Surely Palpatine cannot be said to have orchestrated the Anakin-Padme love affair, which proved to be his greatest stroke of luck in the PT -- although he did agree to Anakin escorting Padme to Naboo...)

In his review of AotC on www.badastronomy.com, the astronomer Phil Plait complains that whoever removed Kamino from the Jedi Archives should have known enough to change the positions of the nearby stars to mask the gravitational effect of Kamino's star. But I think that this was not done because Sidious wanted the Jedi to locate Kamino when the time was right by observing "gravity's silhouette". Plait says this was "Bad Astronomy" on the part of the Sith, but in fact it was "Good Astronomy" on their part.

As Star Wars fans have often pointed out, AotC has a fiendishly clever and complex storyline in which what seem to be plot holes are actually evidence of Palpatine's devious plotting. To understand what happens in AotC you have to think like a Sith -- or like George Lucas.

 

I think Palpatine knew about Anakin's feelings for Padme since they had apparently been talking for the past ten years (i.e. "Your guidance more than my patience.") I'd bet Palpatine had told Anakin to be patient about Padme and that one day he get a chance to see her again. I think Palpatine knew that if Anakin and Padme developed feelings for each other those feelings would drive another wedge between Anakin and the Jedi Order and give Palps another hold on Anakin.

 

If he wanted it traced back to him, Kamino would of mysteriously been re-added to the Jedi library.

I don't know what you mean by traced back to him, that was the last thing he wanted. I think i'm misunderstanding you.
Now how could Kamino mysteriously be readed to the archives. The whole point I thought was that Dooku removed it Ten years previously, right around the time Qui-gon died and he left the order. Dooku having been removed from the order wouldn't have had access to the archives.

As for how the army would be discovered, the Kaminoians themselves could delever the army to the Republic or at least drop the senate a note saying the army is done.

That is indeed a possibility. But, I think palpatine would have orchestrated what happens in AOTC to make sure that it was in fact the Jedi who discovered them if at all possible. Rember, the whole point of the coup he is performing is to try and demoralize and make the Jedi appear corrupt. That's why it was supposed to be Sifo Dyas who had them created in the first place. By having a Jedi discover them he succeds in making the Jedi look like they've been preparing for a war before the republic ever got wind of it and also probably makes the Jedi feel that their discovery of the army is actually the force's will at work.

Good point about the astronomy charts having Gravity's pull remaining. make's sense.

 

its very wrong to think that everything was planned by Sidious in AOTC

Jango was NOT ordered to use that Dart
the event of AOTC is a CHAIN REACTION which started by Gunray wanting Padme dead, the only input palapatine had was influencing the Jedi leadership to put OB1 and Anakin to watch over Padme,

 

I don't see how there would be any difference at all if the Jedi had discovered the clones by simply getting a transmission from Kamino asking them to come inspect the clones they'd ordered. How does the intricate web of events that leads Obi Wan to Kamino in any way change the bottom line of what happens after he reports back to the council regarding the clones existence?
Either way Yoda would know the jedi's ability was diminshing due to their unawareness of the army's creation. Either way the jedi know that they didn't order the clones. Either way the Kaminoans would claim that the order was placed by a jedi, creating the perception that the jedi were corrupt.
Certainly there could not have been the plan ten years in advance that a jedi with just enough ablity to track Jango, but not capture Jango, or be killed by Jango would be sent to Kamino eventually and then Jango would flee to Geonosis leading this jedi there as well. Why not have the weapon be of geonosian design? This would not necessarily implicate the geonosians in the attempt to kill Padme just like the dart didn't implicate the Kaminoans. Even if it did, this would just have brought about the same result when Obi Wan hypothetically travels directly to Geonosis to track the bounty hunter had the council discovered the clones by a communique from Kamino around the same time.
I think we have to assume things just kind of fell into place, not exactly as Palps had planned, but certainly with the desired results.

 

yes but the actual OB1 going to kamino, surving Jango's onsalught and going to geonesis .... wasnt planned by sidious ALL ALong; clone war would have started onr way or another, it started maybe a few month earlier due to Viceroy insistance that Padme should die; though palpatine did influence OB1 and Anakin guarding Padme as a setup for his scheme in ep3.

this is how i see it; but trust me there are so many SW fans that think everything in Ep 2 pre-arranged

 

its very wrong to think that everything was planned by Sidious in AOTC

Jango was NOT ordered to use that Dart
the event of AOTC is a CHAIN REACTION which started by Gunray wanting Padme dead, the only input palapatine had was influencing the Jedi leadership to put OB1 and Anakin to watch over Padme,

You don't have to buy into my opinion and theory. But you can't just say "Jango was NOT ordered to use that Dart" and offer no proof or quote from Lucas about this part of the story which would suggest otherwise. I can't believe everything that happens in AOTC is just a chain reaction, there's more going on behind the scenes then just letting the cards fall. There's too much happening.

I don't see how there would be any difference at all if the Jedi had discovered the clones by simply getting a transmission from Kamino asking them to come inspect the clones they'd ordered. How does the intricate web of events that leads Obi Wan to Kamino in any way change the bottom line of what happens after he reports back to the council regarding the clones existence?
Either way Yoda would know the jedi's ability was diminshing due to their unawareness of the army's creation. Either way the jedi know that they didn't order the clones. Either way the Kaminoans would claim that the order was placed by a jedi, creating the perception that the jedi were corrupt.
Certainly there could not have been the plan ten years in advance that a jedi with just enough ablity to track Jango, but not capture Jango, or be killed by Jango would be sent to Kamino eventually and then Jango would flee to Geonosis leading this jedi there as well. Why not have the weapon be of geonosian design? This would not necessarily implicate the geonosians in the attempt to kill Padme just like the dart didn't implicate the Kaminoans. Even if it did, this would just have brought about the same result when Obi Wan hypothetically travels directly to Geonosis to track the bounty hunter had the council discovered the clones by a communique from Kamino around the same time.
I think we have to assume things just kind of fell into place, not exactly as Palps had planned, but certainly with the desired results.

Good response first of all. But there's one thing, the Jedi could have simply denied involvement(considering that they didn't even have any), and there's really no other evidence to support that the Syfo dias didn't simply act on his own accord. Now I'm not saying this wouldn't have been enough because it might have, but by having a Jedi miraculously discover the army it helps Palpatine out even more. There are other ways he could have gone about the situation, but doing it as he did it still posed minimal risk to him and it helped his plan move along a LOT faster than it may have otherwise.
I never said that the plan was totally in place ten years in advance. Palpatine has worked out his plan quite a bit, but he's still improvising a bit, just far less than most people seem to think I believe. The choice of using Obi-wan to track down Jango was probably decided by him nearing the time that the clones were ready to be completed, probably because of Anakin in fact. Now I said that having Obi-wan following Jango to Geonosis was part of the plan, but that I think was a best case scenerio for him. One way or another I'm almost positive that he intended for Obi-wan or at least a Jedi to follow Jango to Kamino. After that he figured 1 of three 4 would happen.
1. Jango would kill the Jedi and he would still have a badass bountyhunter on his side, he wins. It would just slow things down slightly since they would have to discover Geonosis through another means. He knew that Obi-wan being a good little Jedi would immediately report his findings to the council before he made any move against Jango.
2. Jango dies. Having surved his main purpose of creating the army and leading a Jedi to it, no real loss.
3. Jango and/or his son is captured. As Jango said, he was hired by a man named Tyranus, not sidi

 

If Jango is so bad, why not just shoot Zam with an unidentifiable blaster?
Why shoot her with a dart that is made on only one planet, where you are hiding?
Hello calling card.

 

Your point that the Jedi miraculusly discover the clones, what would have been the difference had the Kaminoan's contacted them and said your clones are ready? I see absolutetly none

As I said above, It first makes it so that no matter how you view it, as far as anyone can tell looking on the side lines, it all seems to come back to the Jedi. It helps palpatine build the mistrust in them that makes his claim that they turned against the republic.
But it also made the events move along much much faster than they would have if they had just sent a inquiry to the Council. Having obi-wan discover it first established the existance , and then having him follow Jango to geonosis prompted the immediate need to bring the clones into battle, thus prompting the need for Emergency Powers. Doing it the way you've suggested would have worked to a degree, but it would have worked considerably slower. And without the immediate need that the events of AOTC created for them it's possible that the deliberation which followed the clones being revealed would not have allowed palpatine to take his seat of power. There had to be a need of urgency, events had to be moving and happening so fast that the only way action could be done, the senate would feel, would be for Palpatine to take control.

Had the Jedi shown up and not had the clones for back up they would have been destroyed. How could that not have been better for the Sith?... Darn, no more Jedi, but we didn't get our civil war, there goes our plans of galactic conquest.

You just answered your question. It's not just about destroying the Jedi, it's about conquering the galaxy. It's about returning the galaxy to Sith rule. Palpatine did not want the seperatists to win, which is why he destroys them in ROTS, he just wanted to start a conflict that would weaken the republic and the Jedi.

 

So if the Jedi and the Senate were informed of the clone army by telegram a day before an assassination attempt on Padme with a Geonosian weapon, what would have been the difference? The immediate need that promts the call for executive powers is Obi Wan's transmission about the Separatists' army strength and the belief that they are preparing for war. If the Senate feels they are about to be attacked wouldn't they vote Palps emergency powers regardless of whether they had an army already or needed to create one in a hurry? What would have been their other option, surrender? The Senate didn't grant emergency powers to Palps in order to save Obi Wan, they did it "In response to this direct threat to the republic.." It's pretty clear that the time for deliberation was over and the Senate felt it needed to defend itself.

Ok, if the Senate is under Palps' control and the Separatists are under Dooku's control...who's left? The Jedi! How is the Republic weakened by the war, the only thing they've lost is a bunch of clones they didn't even know they had three years ago. If you mean emergency powers, Palps got those at the beginning of the war. The same gang killed on Mustafar were all with Dooku on Geonosis, why not force them to switch off their droid armies and kill them then!
Even if we decide that they had to be tricked into a civil war, wouldn't the Senate and the Separatists have been easier (if that's possible) to manipulate with the Jedi (or at least a good percentage) out of the way?

 

I heard a yes to put the jedi to find outabout the clones for the republic.

 

i dont dissagree, jango hired some one else to do the job simply because he didnt want to be discoved.....he used the kamino saberdart to kill Zam instantly so she wouldnt say his name...Jango was not expecting jedi to be protecting padme, they were a last minute thing....

Zam wouldnt have tried to lose the jedi in the speeder chase if she was supposed to get caught and eventually killed...

 

Hmm, AotC was all a big set up by Palpatine, so I wouldn't put it past him. The sly Palpatine does many things that are crafty and well thought out.