Jar-Jar and Gollum

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Darth-Vengence, Dec 29, 2002.

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  1. Darth-Vengence Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 4
    The other day, I was watching TPM with my mom and she said something about Jar-Jar, and she said "how'd they get a guy in the suit" and I said mom, he's not real, he's digital" and she had the most shocked look on her face. At that moment, I thought that ILM had accomplished their mission.

    Also, I watched The Two Towers with my friend and I told him that Gollum was digital and he said, "Well, howd they get him to lift Frodo out of the water then hmmm?" And I told him that they probably dressed a guy in all blue, then had him pull frodo out of the water, and they erased the blue and added Gollum.

    That moment, I thought the same thing.

    It's wonderful that people who aren't movie gooroos are so fooled by special effects. Only us movie fanatics know all the tricks of the trade and automatically know if it's real or fake.
  2. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    After seeing AOTC, my mom asked what the name of the midget was that played Yoda.
  3. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    And then on the other hand, you've got the people who complained about the CGI in Episode I, and then proceeded to give a list of shots that were actually models to illustrate their point...
  4. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    They were both obviously CGI to me. The difference lies in their potrayal. I enjoyed Gollum, his role in the story, his funny moments (which were *gasp* actually funny!). Jar Jar on the other hand...I'm not one of those bashers who totally object the guy, but still his accent, the slapstick...urghhh! Why he was made a general, I'll never know.

    In other words...

    [Gollum]Not listening, not listening![/Gollum]

    :p
  5. vladimir_imp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2002
    star 2
    It's at the point where even regular movie goers cannot tell the difference between CG, model/puppet and real life.

    OK, so Gollum was CG as was Jar-Jar. But wasn't there some shots in TPM where it was Ahmed Best in a suit? I think when he gets his hand stuck in the pod racer, the close-up of Jar-Jar's hand is AB in a suit. But I'm not sure.

    And it's equally difficult to tell which shots in TPM have the 'real' pod racer, the minature model or the CG model.

    At the theatre I realised that they were using some CG during the AOTC Obi-Wan and Jango fight, but I didn't realise how much until I got the DVD.
  6. YoungPadawanLearner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2002
    star 4
    Lurking, Gollum didn't say that, Smegaol did. 8-}
  7. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Both look fake to a degree but Gollum looks better. However, he was made years after the "Jar Jar Experiment" which was the first time they really tested a CGI "main" character.

    I never thought Jar Jar looked real though. The first shots of him were great but they seemed to get sloppy after that. He was too fluid and cartoony. Watto looked more real but he was more irritating than Jar Jar with that awful voice and those terrible bartering scenes that seem to get longer everytime I watch them.
  8. vladimir_imp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2002
    star 2
    Huh? Watto? Irritating?

    Each to their own!


    I think that CG effects are more convincing than the old blue-screen optical tricks that used to result in those hidious black lines. Thank Jabba they're a thing of the past. Though 'witness lines' are still visible sometimes.

    I was totally convinced by CG Jar-Jar. I remember the first encounter in the forest, with all the tiny 'pockets' of light over Jar-Jar. Brilliant.

    I think that the pod race was vastly more convincing than the speeder chase in ROTJ for example. Are we just talking about characters? Should we be comparing Jar-Jar and Greedo?
  9. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    "I think that the pod race was vastly more convincing than the speeder chase in ROTJ for example."

    More convincing? Maybe (although I'm one of those weird people who finds human beings more convincing than cartoons). But the speeder bike chase is far more fun, exciting and entertaining, in my opinion. I find the podrace tedious and boring. I usually skip it.
  10. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Jar Jar looked more realistic in TPM than Gollum did in TTT, IMO.
  11. vladimir_imp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2002
    star 2
    the speeder bike chase is far more fun

    That's a different subject though isn't it? Maybe if we take the special edition shots that were replaced. How about the falcon taking off from Mos Eisley or landing on Bespin? More realistic?


    I think I've gone way off topic! IMO I don't see much difference between Gollum and Jar-Jar in terms of technical realism. Gollum was much closer to camera than Jar-Jar, and therefore had to be better, but as a member of the audience I was not distracted by either. Both were convincing enough that I believed they were interacting with the other actors and the environment.

    I'm going to get a reputation for going off-topic but part of being convinced relies on the acting of the other actors. Ewan McGregor seriously jeopodised Jar-Jar's believability in TPM in the forest at the beginning!
  12. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Well, I also found Gollum to be very believable, but I still think Jar Jar looks a liiittle more realistic.
  13. JediMasterGuff Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 5
    I think the CG in both movies was fantastic, but Gollum is just fantastic as a character.
  14. AgentCoop Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2002
    star 4
    "How about the falcon taking off from Mos Eisley or landing on Bespin? More realistic?"

    I don't find the Special Edition versions of these shots to be better or worse than the originals. I never found the originals unconvincing to begin with.
  15. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Yeah, the first Gollum vs Sméagol scene was fantastic! The second too, but the music in the first gave it a really creepy feeling.
  16. Vonn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2000
    star 4
    In my opinion, the daytime lighting of Gollum was never quite right, incomparison to the almost always spot-on lighting of Jar Jar.


    Also, in my opinion, Gollum only looked real in close-ups. In medium and long-shots he didn't seem as real. Don't even get me started on Gollum's "clothing."

    Sure most people will say Gollum is better because they aren't annoyed with Gollum. But, technically, Jar Jar is more advanced than the current iteration of Gollum.
  17. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    I don't know about that. I think Gollum managed to overcome the "massless" problem I have with JJB and AOTC Yoda; I found him to be much more convincing and better executed than the PT CGI characters.

    EDIT: Of course, the fact that he was rendered a few years after JJB was doesn't hurt.
  18. Rimkar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 4
    I know that there were some scenes were Jar Jar interacted with real characters like when Padme pulls his hand out of the engine, but I thought Gollum's physical presence was better. When he grabbed Frodo and pulled him out it looked totally believable the way both characters moved and the way that Frodo's clothing reacted. Of course this is becuase Serkis actually was pulling him. It reminds me of the scene in the droid foundries where Padme struggles with the Geonosian which I also thought was done well. Anyhow there are two seperate issues here, the characters' likeability and then their animation. Unfortunately I think Gollum wins in both departments- but of course like Quix says they did have the luxury of 3 more years.
  19. Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
    I loved the way he interacted with the rabbits, now that was good work.
  20. Mace Windy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 1999
    star 6
    Gollum was hands down the best looking, most believable CG characater to date. This doesn't take anything away from Jar Jar, however, who looks darn good in his own right, especially in his scenes in the Naboo forest. The lighting was flawless.

    However, as mentioned above, by actually including Andy Serkis into the shots while filming, a CG character finally interacted with the real characters as he should. I was totally impressed, especially with the fight scene between Gollum and Frodo/Sam. I think that all interacting CG characters should have the actor in the shot at all times.





    [face_love] Mace Windy,
    wishing you a very windy holiday season!
  21. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I honestly can't understand why people can't see the big Jar Jar cartoon (and all the other pathetic gungans) that I see everytime I watch TPM. He NEVER looked real. His eyes, mouth and motion is all too weird. He is so close to a cartoon that I don't think it would matter if Roger Rabbit was edited in instead. Add the fact that he was annoying and you have one bad idea.

    Gollum looks fake too but not nearly as bad. They got it about 25% right with Jar Jar and 85% right with Gollum. Quite an achievement on both accounts but Jar Jar only makes the first scene as a realistic character for me.

    This is, of course, MHO.
  22. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Huh? Watto? Irritating?

    Each to their own!


    Yep! For me it is the design which annoys me. How many exaggerated charcteristics were they going for?? Blue, pot belly, flying, wings, stubble, tusks (one broken), huge nose, grating voice. He's like a fairy with a halloween mask that has spent all his life drinking beer. It's just too much. Way WAY too much. Biggest problem with CGI is that once they start, they never know when to stop! Just like Dex. Let's no just have a CGI alien but let's give him four arms, stubble, obesity etc. As I have said before, someone needs to start pulling the reigns on this CGI mess that Lucas is creating. It is simply awful.
  23. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Yes, stop the CGI insanity! I mean what's next? A guy with a butt on his face?

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/pondababa/img/movie_bg.jpg]

    How about a giant slug?

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/jabbathehutt/img/curve.jpg]

    I mean, what kind of crazy nonsense CG characters will they come up with next?

    [image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/ephantmon/img/movie_bg.jpg]
  24. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    They are what they are but someone knew when to call it quits. What if they gave Jabba a big moustach and purple spots? THAT is what I mean. It wouldn't bother me if Watto was a fat, blue alien with tusks. What bothers me is they have to add wings, big nose, croaky voice as well. Jabba is A slug. It's simple. The butt face guy has a butt face and hairy arms. So what? That's it. And there is something "alien" about all those creatures you have displayed. However, Watto is like a disney creation gone mad. The artists started on an interesting character then added more and more and more until too much. He reminds me of when people draw fake moustaches with beards and glasses on pictures. It looks silly because it is overkill but in that case, it is the point!
  25. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Well you could say Jabba didn't have to have a deep voice and a laugh that sounds like Santa Claus. Gamorrean guards didn't have to have snot coming out of their nose, big tusks, and squeal like pigs. We saw the resemblance just with the shape of the nose, all that extra stuff is overkill.
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