JC and FF

Discussion in 'FanForce Communications' started by DarthJurist, Oct 10, 2002.

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  1. Charis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 6
    The owners need to state that somewhere cos it's not in any of the FAQs or Information Threads (with the FAQ actually having dead links in it :)). I checked with a lawyer and the ToS is a typical standard set of clauses for what can be classed as decent and legal adult behaviour.

    It's not that I don't believe you. It's just that I am not the only one under the impression that the rules are 13 plus and I cannot find any statement by the owners or any members of the Admin that changes that. Plus, the Admin and Mods enforce the rules as laid down by the owners so they should know the score.

    In other words, the point I'm making is that Family Friendly needs to be defined in a statement if that is what they want cos it isn't defined anywhere, and I mean clearly defined. Family Friendly can mean a multitude of things.
  2. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    You checked with a lawyer?

    o_O

    Anyways, anyone is welcome on the JC regarless of age, that has always been the case since anyone can see the age thing is impossible to enforce.

  3. Charis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 6
    Yes, the lawyer is a friend. I did PM you with my reasons for why this board is not suitable for all ages, but then I thought that if others were under the same impression then perhaps I am better posting my opinions here where an open debate can be had :)

    First off it doesn't comply with UK guidelines with regard to Internet child security.

    1. It clearly states aged 13 on sign-up.
    2. Mods are not trained and vetted. Plus they moderate more than one board making it impossible for them to read all posts.
    3. Members only provide e-mail address as a form of identification.
    4. Private messaging facility is available.
    5. Posting of links to other sites is also available.
    6. Advertising is present, albeit in small amounts.
    7. The ToS would have to be a booklet containing exact clarification of the rules concerning language and content.

    Basically, this board is one big chatroom. PM could be looked as a private chatroom facility.

    US standards may differ, but controlling a child's access to e-mail facilities will put a stop to any 8 year old, say, signing up on a messageboard with e-mail password verification. The onus is purely on the parents and computers should be in a family room where parents can keep an eye on what their kids are up to.
  4. wild_karrde Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 7
    See as how I've created a lot of problems in the Atlantic Canada FF relating to this, I'm gonna read the whole topic before posting, which is a huge accomplishment for me :D
  5. Auraveda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 4
    Jon Snow: But I don?t think that the owners are being so terribly strict. I think that the general idea is, if it couldn?t be said in a Star Wars movie or book, it can?t be said.

    That's funny. There's drinking in the Star Wars movies but we're not allowed to talk about it. The Milwaukee Fan Force recently got scolded by a mod for talking about a night out drinking.
  6. wild_karrde Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 7
    For once in my life, I agree with PB :eek:

    Last week (as some of you may know) we had problems in the ACFF. Someone (who refuses to identify himself, although I have a good idea who he is) complained about a thread me and my girlfriend posted in. Some of the posts were a little ... risque. However, everything was well within anything you'd see in a PG-13 movie or TV Show. However, he claimed that he didn't want his kids reading it, complained to the Canadian RSA, and it was closed. Long story short, lots of people from our FF were upset about the decision, complained (usually with foul language) and were banned, myself included.

    Now, while we did deserve bannings for blatantly swearing, we all felt the thread should not have been locked. I have been here for over three years, and that entire time I was always told this place was PG-13. Even the mods think it is! I have no problem with this place being "Family Friendly" but I would like 1) to be told that it is and 2) a definition of what is and is not acceptable. Just because one person doesn't consider something "family friendly" doesn't mean others don't as well.

    There has to be specific guidelines!
  7. wild_karrde Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 7
    Jon Snow: But I don?t think that the owners are being so terribly strict. I think that the general idea is, if it couldn?t be said in a Star Wars movie or book, it can?t be said.

    Auraveda: That's funny. There's drinking in the Star Wars movies but we're not allowed to talk about it. The Milwaukee Fan Force recently got scolded by a mod for talking about a night out drinking.


    And there's killing and incest in Star Wars too!
  8. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    w-k since you've been here so long you no doubt remember LB's unsucessful make the JC pg-13 campaign.

  9. BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2000
    star 5
    "And there's killing and incest in Star Wars too!"

    I don't know where you think this "incest" is, but in either case, nobody's going to go around posting about a fun night fornicating with his sister and/or beheading infidels. Well... at least not in my state. What we're talking about is having a few beers among friends, on our own time, under our own rules, in our own town. Nobody gets hurt, so where is the harm in talking about it?

    As for the lax enforcement of rules, there is only one simple explanation: we are all friends. In a forum where everyone personally knows everyone else, there is no need to worry about "bad" behavior because nothing we talk about is bad behavior in that culture. If and when we have a problem, we work it out ourselves. If and when we need someone else to butt in, we'll let you know. In short, don't call us, we'll call you.
  10. wild_karrde Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 7
    w-k since you've been here so long you no doubt remember LB's unsucessful make the JC pg-13 campaign

    Actually, I don't, sorry :)
  11. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    Ah well then, long story short, it failed.

    I don't know who has been telling you this place is pg-13 however I can tell you that right now, and for as long as I have been aware, it is not.
  12. Charis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 6
    Alas, farraday, there is no evidence anywhere on the boards indicating "family friendly".

    The structure of the board as it is now is not a safe place for young kids and one wonders whether 13 is actually too young.

    If FF/JC members let their kids of under 13 surf this board without their supervision, then that is their problem for being naive about the nature of the Internet and the minimalistic rules that govern it.

    What you want this site to be, and what it actually is are two different things.
  13. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    What I want this site to be isn't the point, what the owners want it to be is.

    I don't really care if you can't find t anywhere that they want it to be family friendly, I'm absolutely certain that is their intent.
  14. Woofer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2001
    star 4
    Umm are the Terms of Service not plain enough? Funny, I seem to have no problem reading and understanding them.

    That clearly describes a family friendly posting policy.
  15. Charis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 6
    Yes, Woofer I read the ToS and I got a lawyer who is a friend of mine to read the ToS. I also got him to look at this site, and assess it for family friendliness and it fails in every category on structure alone.

    If the owners want a family friendly site, as in suitable for kids under a certain age, then security improvements are necessary. This is not a secure messageboard it is a chatroom! CHATROOM!

    Ok, to test this - pick a stranger on the JC - a name you do not know. What kind of information can you gleam from their profiles? What kind of information do the Admin have available to them? What country is the person are from, their real name, they real age, real profession, whether they are really male or female, whether their intention of being here is a good one or bad one, and importantly of all whether the Admin can confirm correct e-mail and postal address. Did they use an anonymous e-mail service such as hotmail etc etc. This is a chatroom standard board.
  16. Charis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 6
    Sorry to late to edit above post, but can I also point out the lack of language filter. What kind of family board lacks a basic language filter? I should not be able to type the proper and true version of a swear word. I run a board and it has the option of language filter on or off - this means that when it it on I get a report of who attempted to post what and the word can either be removed prior to actual posting or replaced by stars.

    Frankly, the lack of this simple precaution is an clear indication that the owners, whether intentionally or not, have not put any thought into the family friendly side of things.

    I have nothing against a family friendly board, but if it is to be officially classed as family friendly and sell itself as such, then it has to actually be "family friendly" as per the various interpretations of that term.
  17. Jon_Snow Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2001
    star 3
    Your argument generally seems to boil down to ?this is not a family friendly board because it lacks features that I think a family friendly board should have, and therefore I shouldn?t have to treat it was a family board.? But this isn?t your board. It belongs to Josh and Scott, and they make the rules here. They want a board that a thirteen year old could read with his parents next to him that would not upset the parents.
  18. Charis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 6
    Actually Jon - that is not what farraday and Woofer are saying that the owners want. The argument has moved onto the ALL ages category not 13 year olds.

    Family friendly means just that - friendly for all the family - that means 5 year olds, 8 year olds, 10 year olds.

    And no one has argued over the 13 year old angle. Just the definition of family friendly.
  19. toochilled Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    On the language filter option; I believe it is turned off because all profanities should be absent.
    There is a long standing rule that a starred out profanity should be treated the same as a non starred out one.

    The point is essentially moot however, since what one person judges as family friendly may not be the same as anothers. That is why people are encouraged to use content filters. Parents can then set the level of 'family friendliness' that they judge to be correct.

  20. Charis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 6
    Bingo :) That is the point I am making Toochilled. A messageboard can only do so much, but the onus is on the parents.

    EDITED to add that - no, I do not condone profanity or pornography! And thanks to the person who e-mailed me with the accusation ;) Next time try asking politely via PM and not ranting via my personal e-mail.
  21. wild_karrde Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 7
    Just what is "family friendly" anyway?

    My family has sworn around me for as long as I can remember.

    Ever since I was a child, I've seen adults drinking and getting drunk (including my parents).

    And I must once again play the "race card". The majority of posters on this board are non-american. I feel it is niave to try to force American morals, values, and beliefs on the rest of us. George W. Bush might disagree, but this is one of the reasons the rest of the world aren't really your biggest fans. You always seem to think that YOU are right, and everyone else is wrong. Just because the American belief is that something is npot "family friendly", that doesn't mean everyone else does, or should.

    (I know this is going to open up a whole new discussion, but it had to be said sooner or later)
  22. Charis Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 6
    Yep, there is gonna be a debate as to what "family friendly" means because legally wise it means "suitable for the whole family" and that means from little babies upwards.
  23. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    The majority of posters on this board are non-american.

    So? The owners of the board are American. Are you saying that they can?t decide how they want their own boards to be run?

    I feel it is niave to try to force American morals, values, and beliefs on the rest of us.

    They are not being forced upon you. You are coming here of your own free will, aren?t you? And while you are here, you should abide by the rules of conduct on these boards. If you go over to someone?s house or business, and they ask you not to smoke, do you light up anyways? Or do you agree that people have a right to make up the rules in their own homes? The owners are not forcing their beliefs on you. They?re asking you to be respectful of their beliefs.

    George W. Bush might disagree, but this is one of the reasons the rest of the world aren't really your biggest fans. You always seem to think that YOU are right, and everyone else is wrong.

    No America bashing, please. But this isn?t like America going into other parts of the world and messing with other people. This is like going into America and finding that they won?t let you smoke pot like you can in some places of the world. Do you complain that they?re infringing on your rights, or do you say ?I?m in America, so I have to abide by their laws.?

    Just because the American belief is that something is npot "family friendly", that doesn't mean everyone else does, or should.

    The majority of people who post on these boards are Americans between the ages of 13-17. They are the target audience. It?s for them that we set our standards. We make our rules to keep the majority happy (and the parents of the majority happy).
  24. Sebulba-X •X C2 C3 MW RSA•

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2000
    star 6
    TIE Fighters are teh cool.
  25. Auraveda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 4
    Charis: " 'suitable for the whole family' and that means from little babies upwards"

    Babies can't read.


    Gandolf: " The majority of people who post on these boards are Americans between the ages of 13-17."

    Is there proof of this?


    I will certainly concede that theforce.net is a privately owned site, and as such the owners can do whatever they like with it since it is their property.

    I also concede that they must desparately want to not sponsor or appear to sponsor anything that might reflect negatively on Lucasfilm and the Star Wars franchise. And if they did, Lucasfilm would probably sue them off the face of the planet since this entire site is essentially one giant copyright violation. So, I understand why they would want to keep the place as "clean" as possible; they don't want to incur the wrath of Lucasfilm's pet lawyers.

    The basic problem here is that this place has been so wildly successful that it has evolved into much more than just a Star Wars message board. It is a community. This can be especially true in the Fan Force boards where the members live in the same area and have probably had some real life interaction with each other. When this sense of community develops people will start to feel ownership over their boards. They will strongly resent outside interference from someone who isn't a member of their community.

    This feeling of intrusion is heightened by the fact that we read these boards from our own homes (or school or local internet cafe or whatever...) We don't have to travel to wherever it is in America that the server is housed to read the messages. So, when a moderator pops into the Fan Force UK forum and tells people what they can and cannot talk about it feels just as bullishly intrusive as if the moderator burst into their home and told them what they could say.

    Yes, by rights the administration here can tell us what we can say on their boards, but it doesn't feel right, and it doesn't make anyone happy.

    How hard would it be to set up a private board for each of the fan forces? (This would be in addition to the currently existing unrestricted public one.) This private board could be restricted to only adult members of that local fan force (or minors with consent of their parents). The fan force's CR could be in charge of informing the administration of who should be allowed access and who should not, and the local fan force could be wholly responsible for what is said in there, not the owners of theforce.net.

    If we did that we'd still have publicly accessible family-friendly boards for planning of events, welcoming new members, and for the young people to talk on, but at the same time we'd have a place for the older members to freely chat and build their friendships without having to perpetually censor themselves.

    So what do you think?
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