Jedi Academy: "No Force power is inherently evil"

Discussion in 'Games' started by Calgamer, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. Calgamer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    I might have paraphrased Kyle Katarn's line a bit, but during your training mission at the Jedi temple on Yavin, Kyle basically says no power is inherently good or evil and it's how you use the power that determines the morality. The game then immediately gives you points with which to spend on Force powers, of which are clearly labeled dark side or light side...

    So what was Kyle referring to? Was he talking about powers like push or pull? Was it just filler chat while the training was going on?
  2. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9

    It was something for the retard kids who wanted power but not restraint. Instead of not taking force lightning, a dark power, you can take it and kill people because you're siding with the goodies.

    It happened in fiction too, with the potentium heresy.

    In short, it's wrong and should be ignored; and people who played lightside in KOTOR 1 or 2 who took choke or lightning are terrible human beings.
  3. moosemousse CR - FF:UK South

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2004
    star 6
    But then you can also take powers like Mind Trick and Push and use those to make people fall off high places. I always used the cheat to make Mind Trick level 4 so I could take control of them and make them walk or jump of ledges. To me that seems worse than learning something like Choke or Lightening and using them as a show of force to defuse a situation.
  4. MasterSanders Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2014
    star 1
    I happen to agree with the statement that there is no such thing as an evil Force Power only the motive and emotions behind... I like to think of the force like the Aing-Tii and the force is like a rainbow (bad choice or words on author's part) but like it's universal, unbiased, neutral, dark and light all at the same time, and it's only people that choose to be good or bad.... However you see constantly there are gray jedis, you could even be that in KOTOR... I am actually writing a book about Luke seeking out the Aing-Tii to find a better way that doesn't require the sith and jedi constantly warring with each other and killing all the sith or all the jedi in order to keep the scales of balance.... I just think the force cannot be looked at so narrow mindedly as either good or bad, yeah that makes things simple, but it's the force mystical and magical and no one really knows at all times what is going on....


    Everytime I play KOTOR 1 and 2, or jedi academy, or SWTOR I always (when possible) go black robes red lightsabers, and force storm and choke as my only true dark side powers (or neutral depending on your view) and play through it first time good, second time evil, and 3rd and 4th trying to find different endings somehow being gray or making different decisions... I also am wanting to make a NJO video game or at the very least mod an existing star wars game to be NJO series fighting the Yuuzhan Vong.... Epic! I'm actually playing KOTOR and listening to NJO series right now... lol I love it!
  5. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    Doesn't Katarn use lightning himself if you fight him at the end of JA?

    Grey Jedi are known, Revan was one after he stopped being a Sith (had powers associated with the Dark Side like lightning but wasn't evil) and I suppose Asajj Ventress would be one if she can be considered good by the end of TCW series.
    The thing is though, why would any true servant of the Light Side even need/want an ability like Force Lightning? It's dangerous and really can only be used to cause harm, whereas Push or Pull have far wider uses even if they could be used to hurt others.
  6. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    To overload some machinery from afar? :p

    Seriously though, this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unifying_Force
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  7. Six Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2014
    star 4
    Back in my day, Jedi didn't use force choke or force lightning. Nothing good comes out of it. Its a gateway to the Dark side.
    Calgamer likes this.
  8. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    When it comes to Force abilities, it's not the power that determines whether it is light or dark, but the intent of the user and the manner in which it's used. Force lightning is often seen, and in fact is labeled in Jedi Academy, as a dark side power. And yet while it's become a favored tool of the Sith and other dark force users for inflicting pain and bodily injury, Force lightning can be used to power electrical machinery, to jolt the heart of someone in cardiac arrest, or even as an impromptu stunner comparable to a modern taser, in order to non-lethally incapacitate. Mind trick, so often seen as a Jedi tool and a power of the light side, can be extremely harmful if used inappropriately by someone with little care for the independent agency of another, or excessively, which could potentially cause traumatic mental damage or induce problematic psychological symptoms similar to gaslighting.

    The powers are just an expression of the greater Force, being made to act in accordance with the will of the user. What's light or dark is the heart of the user, the intelligence that would use the Force to harm or help.
  9. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    TBH, I've always questioned how such a power like mind trick can be deemed "lightside" when it involves the manipulation of somebody's cognitive faculties, regardless of the user's intent.
  10. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Incorrect. This absolutely is incorrect, and to all the people saying it you're wrong. Grey Jedi, using choke and lightning but for "good" ends... this is all crap made up to suit a materialistic, post-cold war youth. "I want to look cool, but not be the bad guy, so can I use bad guy powers pls?"

    WEG covered it nicely, and even goddam Yoda was clear on it - a Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defence, never for attack. If you're trying to find a way to reconcile your desire to be a dark sider that's good, then maybe the argument is that you're not disciplined enough to be a Jedi. Because every game - Jedi Knight, KOTOR 1 and 2 - shows the light side getting astonishingly more powerful as you level up. The dark side appeals to your more child-like nature, where you want everything and now and it must look cool. At least we know where the witless dark side lackeys in games come from...
    Saintheart likes this.
  11. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

    Buffs and heals are generally very powerful in video games. In terms of the story, the Dark Side is usually referred to as being both easier and stronger, due to the fact that you're not holding anything back as a Light Sider would.

    I'm also very glad to say that no Force power is inherently good or inherently evil. I wouldn't consider Force Healing Darth Sidious to be a morally good action. Narrative, and Star Wars specifically, would be very dull if things were cut and dry.
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  12. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I won't presume to speak for anyone else, but that's not remotely what I'm saying, Ender. It's not a matter of doing bad things and being excused for them because you're doing them under the banner of good, it's a matter of the use of the Force being deemed good or bad as an extension of the user's actions being good or bad. As I said, Force lightning has benevolent applications that can be used for the betterment of others, as well as malevolent applications that can be used to cause harm. Lightning is neither good nor bad. If you're using lightning to, say...jump start a broken down hospital power generator, for instance, then by your good actions, this use of the Force is good. If you're using lightning to painfully torture or kill an enemy, then by your bad actions, this use of the Force is bad. Unlike the Arkham series or Assassin's Creed, wherein a player is given the ability to non-lethally incapacitate a would-be enemy with a brief choke hold in order to avoid unnecessary death, the "Force Choke" ability as presented by games such as Academy always results in a lethal outcome; by using the Force to choke someone in this manner, you're making the decision to use the Force to kill them. That is what makes the power dark. Intent and action.
  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Incorrect. Neither Batman nor any of the assasins are good analogues for Jedi, despite the visually flashy style which seems to be the main prerequisite. Go grab a WEG sourcebook, read it, and get back to me.
  14. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Wouldn't Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon have turned to the dark side before they got off Naboo per the WEG d6 RPG?
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  15. Contessa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2013
    star 2
    So the WEG guidebooks are the only valid source capable of commenting on light and dark Force use and Star Wars morality? Because I seem to remember a bunch of other guidebooks, novels, and even a couple movies coming out since WEG lost the license which have had something to say on the subject and contribute to canon. The Force and morality is *way* more complicated than WEG tried to make it. Go grab Traitor, read it, then get back to me.
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  16. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    And since the dark times when the materialistic relativism you kids seem to crave were the standard - the Dork Nest trilogy, for example - there have also been novels and works which squarely put the binary force stuff back into perspective.

    I'm sorry you can't fry and choke people and still be "good guys" kids. I really am. :(


    @Mia Mesharad and @Contessa, you liked the above post. Please elaborate on how they would have been turned under WEG rules?

    I'm happy with 2nd Ed or 2nd Ed R&E rules.
  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    You know, the Force isn't real, so I don't think anyone here really wants to use the Force to choke or electrocute anyone. Quite a silly straw man you've constructed!
    Contessa likes this.
  18. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I just don't think you're arguing against what you seem to think you're arguing against. Dark Nest and subsequent Troy Denning works are awful depictions of a paradigm in which "heroic" characters do and say a variety of things ranging from morally questionable to outright deplorable, but are spared from examination or consequence by virtue of the out-of-universe viewpoint that their pre-established seat at the Jedi "Good Guy" Table guarantees that whatever they do must be good because we've already labeled them as good.

    No one seems to be arguing that "good guy" characters should be allowed to "fry and choke people" at will and yet retain their "good guy" status unblemished. You certainly didn't and won't hear that from me. The key issue is a matter of personal responsibility. A truly good person would not use the Force to fry someone with lightning, nor would they use the Force to choke someone to death. However, they wouldn't abstain from such actions because "Force Lightning" and "Force Choke" are "bad guy powers," they would do so because the actions perpetrated by the use of the Force in such a manner are cruel and, themselves, evil. "Force Choke" itself is in fact not an ability but an action, a specific, targeted application of the broader Force-enabled power of telekinesis. Telekinesis is not dark, but it holds the potential to be used in dark ways. The same is true of Force lightning, as well as the oft-considered light-aligned "Mind Trick" power. The way in which they are used determines whether they are light or dark, and by extension, whether the user is moral or immoral.
    Last edited by Mia Mesharad, Jan 12, 2014
  19. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    And, ahem, didn't Luke - stalwart Jedi that he was - choke those two piggies as he entered Jabba's palace? Not exactly a very lightside move, amirite?
  20. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    I thought of mentioning this but in reality that scene was intended to tease the possibility of Luke turning dark. Not really a good example.

    An example of the mind trick being portrayed as being used malevolently by the "good guys" is in The Clone Wars, however. Children of the Force, specifically. Anakin, Obi-Wan and Mace all use the ability on bounty hunter Cad Bane, with the potential result of destroying his mind, tortuously.

    [IMG]
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  21. Violent Violet Menace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2004
    star 4
    The entire notion of good and bad abilities is absurd. It's like asking if swinging your arm in a forward motion is evil. It kind of depends on what's in front of your arm.
    Last edited by Violent Violet Menace, Jan 12, 2014
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  22. Darth_Invidious Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 1999
    star 5
    Yeah, just like any other deity. But deities being unknowable as shaped by the zealous, fanatical and superstitious minds of its followers (in this case, Jedi, Sith, Not-Kinda-Yet-Sorta-Sithish-Dark-Jedish and, yes, us), it's kinda silly to think we know all there is to know about said deity, or if it even cares for such petty concepts as dark, light, good and evil. The powers of the Force manifest themselves purely through emotional states: through serenity, calmness, passion or excitement. Any of those states can be attained by either a "good" person, or a rotten bastich. By that token, I think a Jedi could manifest something like Force lightning if he manifested enough passion to conjure it without resorting to wallowing in hatred and anger, just like a Sithlord wannabe could heal himself if finds enough serenity to go into a healing trance. If this is some sort of heresy, well, again, fictional religion based on fictional deity, etc. etc.
  23. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    If we are to believe Heir to Empire Luke did not use Force choke but some kind of mind scramble technique.
  24. jp-30 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2000
    star 9
  25. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I love SC's eloquent summation of why there was lightning in Outcast.

    What happened to him and EV?