Jedi and mind reading

I've noticed that some authors seem to have their Jedi read and speak with their minds. Now, I'm not totally disputing that, but as far as Canon goes, I was under the impression that Jedi mind reading abilities was a bit more limited thing. It seems to me that having them totally adept at reading minds would make them a little too powerful, I think. I interpreted Jedi mind reading as having more to do with empathy, feeling a person's emotions and possibly even sending emotions out and the mind reading itself was limited to say... picking up on words or pictures that might be upmost in someone's mind or not well enough hidden (that's the impression I got when Vader read Luke's mind to find out about Leia). I haven't read much EU, is this mindreading thing EU supported or more of a Fan fic thing? What are others impressions about how and how well Jedi can actually read minds?

sg

 

My personal opinion is the following. Many Jedi can feel strong emotions from others (if they are not hiding it, which can be done as seen in the EU) and there are instances where pictures and thoughts can be implanted into someone's mind. As for specific thoughts and pictures going back and forth between Jedi that is only feasible for Jedi who are closely related (such as Luke and Leia) or master and apprentice teams or two Jedi who have bonded due to closely working together. That is the way I look at it, after reading every book in the EU and NJO and many of the pre-OT books. But, again, this is just how I view things.

 

so you're saying that only Jedi who are related or otherwise connected (as with a Master/Padawan), would be able to say talk back and forth to each other? or would you not even go that far?

sg

 

I think. I interpreted Jedi mind reading as having more to do with empathy, feeling a person's emotions and possibly even sending emotions out and the mind reading itself was limited to say... picking up on words or pictures that might be upmost in someone's mind or not well enough hidden (that's the impression I got when Vader read Luke's mind to find out about Leia).

I am mostly in agreement with you SG. I do feel that thats how the movie gives the impression of, but I haven't read anything in EU to support anything more or less, but I have not read much EU in the Beyond the Saga period. However, in some of my stories that are in draft form right now, I do have that there are rare instances where if there is a strong bond between two people, in my case a man and a woman) that it may be possible for those two to communicate mentally in an normal conversational way.


Edit: What KTJ said is something I hadn't thought about before, and I have read the JA series and come to think of it, it does seem like there are times when QG and Obi seem to communicate to each other on what their next move etc. So maybe between Master and Padawans could be possible for mental communication. I shall give that some thought.

 

Right now I can't remember any instances of exact words being exchanged through a mental bond, although as Crystal mentioned, in the JA books there was some kind of communication between Obi and Qui-gon. A good book (which I can't remember too much of at the present) to check out would be Visions of the Future where a strong bond is developed between Mara and Luke. I think I remember them knowing what the other was thinking but I don't remember if it was just ideas or actual words.

 

now that I'm thinking about it.... I seem to remember reading the ESB novelization when the movie first came out and there was a bit where Anakin was trying to communicate to Luke like that while Luke was in the Falcon recuperating. Or did I dream that? lol

sg

 

I think in the case of Qui and Obi they are considered to have an unusually strong bond or something. Because it formed on its own iirc. I have decided for myself that mental speech between Jedi would be, as has been stated before, very limited in quantity and range and also only between two unusually closely bonded Jedi. On the other hand, I often know what my husband or a close friend is thinking and I know it is not telepathy so much as a reading of fine clues. So knowing which way Obi-Wan was going to jump would be child's play for Qui-Gon.

Of course, I am not universally consistant. If I have a particular tale that I want them to be able to converse through a bond in and it is humor or very AU I just go for it and don't worry about it. Although the only one I have done so far where I couldn't have gotten out of it somehow, I still said they couldn't speak in sentences mentally unless they were close enough that regular conversation would have worked fine. Except they didn't want to be overheard. And frankly, I could get around that by using an "official but unique to the Jedi" form of sign language most of the time. KD falls off chair laughing at the sudden image of Qui-Gon in baseball attire scratching certain places in order to indicate that Obi-Wan, his lightsaber at the ready over his shoulder, should take a swing at the next blaster bolt. Or verbal codes would work too. Where "I have a bad feeling about this." actually has an exact translation of "Don't frighten the passengers, but we've been caught in a tractor beam" or something.

I guess I should stop being lazy and use one of the above instead of mental conversation.

KD

 

Hehe, a very good topic. I run into it often myself, most of the time with my beta, and we argue enough about it.

I'm of the opinion that Jedi can only sense bits and pieces of what's going on in another's mind. They can sense emotional states, but as for knowing exactly what is going on . . . no, I don't think they're that good. Not even Kyp, and he can wipe minds.

I'm sure that others have wondered why the Jedi in my story aren't being "Jedi", and I have a feeling it's because I don't use mind-reading as much as some. I HATED it when Luke and Mara could read each other's minds all the damn time. Perfectly-linked couple my arse! The whole "twin bond" thing annoys me too. Like I said before, they should be able to sense emotions better than normal people, but not read minds.

Jae Angel

 

LOL, so much consensus! I'm with all of you. My Jedi can't read minds (if QGJ & OWK were really telepathic, why would they carry communicators?)

It makes them too powerful, too infallible... IMHO.

 

I'm of the opinion that its a 'sense' ability rather then a 'reading' ability. Though I can understand the twin bond being stronger. I've seen a Discovery Ch. show on twins that have said they have a sense of each other when one or the other is in danger or dies.

NJ, I got annoyed with the L/M thing as well.

 

I would also like to echo the immense dislike of the M/L "connection" in VoTF. I don't remember whether it was in fanfic or in the official NJO books (is that sad that I can't remember?) but somewhere an author wrote a line about how Luke was surprised that Leia could understand Han so well without using the Force. Urgh! I immensly dislike the concept that H/L marriage was less than L/M marriage because Han did not have the Force. Urgh! Warning--Personal Opinion: I do not like stories where the Jedi can speak to each other in their minds; I tend to not read those fics, but that is just a personal opinion. End Warning.


Edit: I just want to re-emphasize that I am not condemning anyone's fic that uses Jedi-mind talk. And I am not saying that it's wrong or bad or un-Star Wars-like. I just personally do not care for it. It's akin to a Jar Jar story (that doesn't end up with JJ being painfully annhilated in the first paragraph); I just personally don't want to read it. I hope no one is offended.


*

 

Continue chatting about this, of course, if you like, but I just wanted to thank everyone for their opinon here as it's helped me settle on how I'm handling it in my current fic. I had a preconceived idea about the subject, then someone mentioned the Jedi mind speak thing in PM and I started to feel shaky about whether or not my view on that was correct. It sounds like it more or less was. So thanks!

sg

 

I remembered the ?conversation? that the Jedi had through the battle-meld in Destiny?s Way which since Corran was ?speaking? to Jaina would be a good example as it would show it wasn?t dependent on a twin-bond or a marriage-bond.

When I checked though I found this:

Despair flooded over Jaina. Get out of here, she thought through the Force-meld. Get away from Obroa-held and into hyperspace now! It wasn?t actual words she sent, but a frantic tumble of images and impulses and emotions that reflected her own anxiety.

No. Corran Horn?s strong presence flooded Jaina?s Force-awareness. His answer was a powerful cocktail of feelings, impulses, words, and fierce reason. Think!

So they don?t exchange words (according to this) but you can summarise the meaning of the non-verbal communication using italicised text for mindspeak.

Of course this says nothing about if Jedi can read non-force users minds, and in fact since in Survivor?s Quest Mara knows that Luke is bluffing when which he was allowing the pirates/smugglers to think he was reading from the guys mind the long list of information on a message he was reeling off this implies they are not telepathic to that extent.

?Very impressive,? she commented as they headed down the street towards the spaceport and the waiting Jade Sabre. ?When did you start being able to pull details like that out of other people?s minds??

?It?s easy enough when you know how,? Luke said with a straight face.

?Uh-huh,? Mara said, ?Let me guess. Karrde sent you the same message.?

So if Luke can?t do it then nobody can (IMO).

 

Has anybody read Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix? I only ask because i think there's an absolutely brilliant take on how 'mind reading' works, as told by our Esteemed Professor Snape:

(Snape)"Legillimency is the ability to extract feelings and memories from another person's mind-"

(harry)"Voldemort can read minds?"

(Snape)"You have no subtlety, Potter. Only muggles talk of 'mind reading'. The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by any invader. The mind is a complex and layered thing."

Dont worry, this is relevant to my point.

The complexity of the mind is important when you consider telepathy between Jedi. Snape is right, the mind is not a book. Thoughts aren't a single line of dialogue that a person can just exchange with somebody else, in my opinion. As a result, when they attempt to communicate by the force, all they can get is a 'gut feeling' of what words they other might be trying to say. They receive a cross section of internal monologue, emotional connotations, mental imagery, chemical sensations etc.

So in that case, a Jedi can't 'read minds' so much as get a general sense of what is going on inside somebody else's mind.

Just my idea.

 

If I may put my two cents in here... this is my take on it. I agree with the post about Jedi abilities with mind reading being that between Jedi who are related to each other or have a close bond. I would also think that sending out impressions (Luke has done this with animal life) and thoughts, feelings and the like are also something I would think as being a good likelihood.
But here is another option that I'd like to offer as well. I would think that a Jedi would also have the ability for Jedi mind reading be possible if said Jedi was a well seasoned, fully trained knight/master. I would also think that mind reading or melding would be possible if Jedi open themselves up to it much like they open themselves up to the Force. I would think that there is a certain level of mind reading that is learned throughout a Jedi's training. I mean, afterall, they are taught to open themselves up to the Force in reading the intentions of their adversaries. Is this because of intuition that comes from the Force or a form of mind reading??? Just a few thoughts to consider.

 

I'd have to respectfully disagree. Luke and Vader were talking in sentences through mind speech at the end of TESB. And Luke sent a plea for help to Leia in the same movie.
If you look at Luke after Vader speaks to him, he almost looks like he's trying to block the mind communication (but that is an assumption on my part).

From the annotated screenplay:

Luke: Hear me! Leia!
Leia: Luke.. We've got to go back.
Lando: What?
Leia: I know where Luke is.

Vader: Luke
Luke: Father
Vader: Son, come with me.

Luke: It's Vader
Vader: Luke... it is your destiny.

I think that if there was sufficiently strong reason to use mind speech, closely-knit (related by blood or a Master/Apprentice) Force-Users would have used it. However, it's not a communicator or else Qui-Gon wouldn't have kept hanging up on Obi-Wan in TPM... LOL.

 

I think that when Jedi are bound closely to each other that they can pick up basic ideas, or words, enough to get the point across.

 

For myself, I can understand the mind talking between Luke/Leia/Vader since they are so closely related, but in general, I just see the communication between Jedi as empathic. They can sense strong emotions. The tighter the bond, the easier it is for them to pick up the other?s feelings. Their bond is also affected by how well they know each other, which helps them anticipate the other?s reactions.

At least, that is what I try to stick to when writing. The only time I used ?mind talking? was with two Jedi that were father and son and they did carry on mental conversations.

 

Just wanted to throw in how the Emperor talked to Luke - in the German version he says that (in the sense) Yoda was dead (sounded like he was reading that from Luke's mind), and that Luke had almost succeeded in hiding that fact (from the Emperor).