PT Jedi and sex in the PT

And again. Kudos!

 

If an organization can grant the basic trust required to teach, it cannot survive.

There are degrees of trust. Trusting (more like hoping) one of your members to continue to at least partially honor what you have taught them when they leave is a much smaller leap of faith than trusting someone to deal with the inevitable powerful and addictive fear, anger, pain and hatred that comes with strong attachment that has proven to lead down the dark path.

What movies have you watched? When were emotions ever banned? Jedi are allowed to feel emotions, they just are expected to control them and let them go. They're expected to not allow those emotions to lead to disaster. They are cautioned, quite often, about the dangers of such emotions but they are not forbidden to feel them.

Again, what movies are you watching? Every single major Jedi displays emotion on multiple occasions.


Qui-Gon: When first dealing with Jar Jar, he is visibly aggravated. He is outraged when Anakin is not allowed to be trained.
Obi-Wan: Flies into a rage when Qui-Gon dies. Laughs many times, expressing joy. Is angered at Anakin's disobedience. Nearly breaks down into tears on multiple occasions over Anakin's turn. On Mustafar we see anger, pain, sadness, despair, remorse. On several occasions we see disappointment, guilt and later bitterness over Anakin.
Yoda: Laughs often, expressing joy, he's even downright silly. Wonder over the mind of a child, and the connection of the Force with all things. When Anakin is in pain over his mother's death, Yoda feels it too. "Pain. Suffering. Death, I feel. Something terrible has happened. Young Skywalker is in pain. Terrible pain." The emotion staggers him. The exact same thing happens when Order 66 is executed. He drops his gimer stick and looks like he's having a heart attack. He reaches for his heart and gasps for breath as he is emotionally devastated. Yoda is a fine example of empathy. He might show more emotion than anyone, he just doesn't let it rule him.
Mace: I wasn't sure if I even had to mention him. Many people have commented that he came off as a jerk in ROTS. He's often been referred to as a grouch. He showed obvious anger and annoyance. "Then our worst fears have been realized...". He shows loathing, maybe even hatred of Palpatine and the Sith in general.

I'm not sure how emotions can be banned when Jedi have always been portrayed with emotions.

 

My closing thoughts:

Whatever the Jedi do, whatever rules they put in place, it's going to be an imperfect solution.

You think they should allow attachment, family, marriage, etc?

Well, they did in the EU. There was thousands of years of destruction and chaos. It wasn't a good time. Then they changed the rules, discouraged attachments, marriage and other things, and there was about 1000 years of relative peace and prosperity. It was the Golden Age of the Republic. The galaxy and the Jedi Order prospered. I would say those rules worked. If Palpatine hadn't come along, there probably would have been another 1000 years of peace. In the end, the Jedi Order was destroyed because they broke their own rules. They broke their own rules to train Anakin. He never should have been trained, or at the very least he should have been failed once they realized he couldn't hack it. If they followed their rules and turned Anakin away, things would have gone differently. Maybe Palpatine still wins, maybe he doesn't. At the very least, their Jedi comrade Anakin Skywalker isn't there to stop Mace from killing Palpatine and he isn't allowed to just walk into the Temple and murder everyone inside. At the very least, they would have been able to identify him as an enemy before it was too late.

The Jedi Order fell and the Republic fell with them. Later, Luke started up a New Jedi Order in which attachment, family and such are allowed. It has not gone well. Many of their Order has fallen to the dark side, one of them (related to Luke, no less) proclaimed himself a Sith within 40 years of the New Jedi Order's creation. War and strife within the government has been a constant. Not only is Luke's Order not doing well, the government is falling apart around him, too. The government has even turned on the Order already, attacking the Temple. It has not been a good time.

Before you spout off "correlation does not imply causation", I believe it does indicate cause in the above cases.


For those of you who do not buy into the EU, there is some hinting in the movies. Mace exclaims that "the oppression of the Sith will never return", which seems to imply that it was banished and that the Jedi and their ways had a hand in it.

Lucas has also stated that the post-ROTJ EU is simply wrong. In a direct quote, "Luke doesn't get married". Maybe Lucas believes that Luke should take up the rules of non-attachment?

Or maybe that's just Lucas being bitter about his divorce.

 

There seems to be a "not" missing in the above line or I am missing your point.
In any event, according to you a rouge Jedi can cause massive damage, far more than a lone ex-soldier or former cop so we can not really compare the two. The various rules the Jedi have seem to say that they lack trust or they would not need all these rules.
They turst the ex-members to behave but not their current members, whom they have much better controll over?

The jedi rules seem to speak against trust. They do not trust their indivudal members to have any contact with their parents or indeed have any memory of their parents. Nor do they trust their members to fall in love, to have children or a family. All of which seem to say "we do not trust you enough to be able to handle these things so we'll ban them".
The Jedi do not trust an older child, teenager or even an adult enough to have them train to be a Jedi. They do not trust anyone that is married and has children to be a Jedi.
On the other hand, ex-Jedi are free to do any and all things that regular Jedi can not and there is no apparent fear that they will turn to the dark side in doing so.
If a jedi quits the order for the sake of having a family, according to the Jedi, this is now a huge risk of them turning so they should do all they can to stop it. And yet they are fine and dandy with it. An acitve Jedi can not marry because this means that he or she has a huge risk or turning but an ex-jedi can marry and here the risk is apparently gone.
Does not add up. If the risk is as big as you say then the Jedi would not just let people leave just like that. Lastly, take the two Jedi IN the films that we know turns, Anakin and Dooku. Anakin turns in part due to attachments. But Dooku? We know next to nothing why he turned but family seems not have been the cause.

I did not say ALL emotions, I said SEVERAL emotions, there is a difference.
Also there is a difference between what the jedi SAY and what the Jedi DO in some instances.
Emotions we are TOLD are BAD are; anger, hate, grief, sadness, fear and love. The last one is something of a puzzle. One the one hand Jedi are encouraged to love all but specific love, the love of one person is discouraged. And it does seem from what we are told, that certain emotions a Jedi must never feel, not just merly controlling them or not allowing themselves to become enslaved by them, but to avoid them all together. Why else ban marriage or ban any and all contact with your parents?

In TPM, Yoda severly scolds a young boy who just misses his mother about the evils of fear and how that will lead to terrible things. In RotS the same Yoda says that you should not grieve, not shed one tear when your best friend dies, instead you should be happy.
But in TPM the Jedi have a funeral for Qui-Gon and that does not seem like a happy occasion.

The desire to have a family, to love someone, to have children is a quite powerfull emotion/impulse/need in humans and I am not comfortable with the idea to suppress it.

Lastly about the EU, according to Obi-Wan, the Jedi have been the guardians in the republic for over 25 000 years. If the EU says that only in the last 1000 years did they ban marr

 

As for allowing people to leave, do they really have a choice?

What are they going to do, keep their members as slaves?

Punish any attempt at escape with death?

That's simply not feasible.


Of course they don't trust older people for training, of course they don't trust their members with attachments, they have good reason not to.

Exhibit A: Anakin Skywalker


You don't know what would have happened if the Jedi refused to train Anakin. You cannot possibly predict such things.

 

^ This.

 

Or:

Attachment to family members and friends can help make right choice in the end.
Exhibit A: Darth Vader
Exhibit B: Luke Skywalker

So I think while 'the no attachment' might have worked for a while, I think that in the end it was a failed approach.

 

Well they take children away from their parents and forbid them from ever having any contact with them or any memory. We do not know IF the parents are given a choice in this matter but we know that the children aren't.

They could quite a number of things, most of which aren't very pleasant.
Prison, drugs and the like.
But isn't there some way to sever a person's connection to the Force?
The Jedi have know about it for some 25 000 years so it is possible they could have found a way to weaken a Force sensitive. After all, they know that a connection exists with these Midis and the number of midis seem to be important. So if they could soemhow reduce the midi count of a person then he or she would not be a danger anymore.
It also brings up a question, what do Jedi do with those that abuse their Force Powers?
Is it automatic death sentence for a Jedi that turns or abuses their powers in any way?
Could a prison really hold a strong Force user?

And exhibit of older people that HAVE attachements that turn out well and saves the day.
Exhibit A: Luke Skywalker

And exhibit of people that leave the Jedi order and turn to the Dark side.
Exhibit A: Dooku.

So IN the films we have two people with attachements and one turn out bad. But we have one person that leaves the order and he turns out bad.
So having attachments, 50% chance to turn bad.
Leaving the order, 100% chance to turn bad.

Actually I can as I have seen the PT and very little of Palpatines overall plan depended on Anakin. It is not CERTAIN but has a good probability.
Getting to be chancellor. Did not depend on Anakin.
Getting the clone army. Did not depend on Anakin.
Starting the war. Did not depend on Anakin.
Killing all the Jedi. Did not depend on Anakin.

About the only thing Anakin was used for was to let the Jedi know that he was a Sith so they would attack him. But that could have been done in any number of ways.
Bottomline, Palpatine did not need Anakin but he thought ne could be a powerfull Sith.

Regards
Nordom

 

After the battle of Naboo? He was already noticed by Palpatine so probably would have ended up being a Sith apprentice anyway. But in this case, no Padme and no twins and no hope for the Galaxy.

But it would make for an interesting alternative storyline.

 

The Jedi could have killed Anakin. Just sayin', murder is always a solution.

 

ALLOWED yes, but not encouraged to. I think it is rather frowned upon. I can't imagine that Yoda goes around encouraging jedi to be promiscuous. I don't think a jedi who buys prostitutes and/or wrecks other people's hearts is seen as a good jedi. Sex without attachment only works when both parts agree, but it could often lead to attachment.
I would like to imagine that most jedi were chaste (if not all, maybe 50% of them). And I could never imagine Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon having relationships.

 

That's why I wrote "allowed," not encouraged.

And I could so see Mr. Living Force Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn experiencing all that life had to offer under the right circumstances. Not that I'm saying he did, but I could see it as a distinct possibility.

 

LOL this reminds me of a friend of mine who, after TPM came out, was sure that Qui-Gon is Anakin's real father - all based on the tenderness he shows to her

 

Really? I missed it. I don't think there're any sexual undercurrents in their scenes, Qui is just trying to be nice and fair with everyone, even "pathetic beings".

Whoah...

No way Qui-Gon would take advantage of a slave woman like that, he's just too noble for that. The whole setup would have to be changed in order for that to work. Now a Sith would have no qualms doing that, on the other hand.

I agree on the Chosen one prophecy. I don't hate it, but I tend to read a lot of fantasy, and the prophecies of the Chosen One are the most used cliches in the genres, to the point of rolling your eyes. I do realize that Lucas and fantasy authors borrow from the same sources, so it all comes down to individual tastes, I guess.

And Obi-Wan - let's just say that after seeing some of McGregor's movies, I can totally believe it

 

I wish there was a hint of Obi's relationships in PT - that would explain why he was so soft on Anakin's attachments.

 

This "they can have sex but no attachment" deal is one of those things that I am going to choose to ignore. Not only is it not in the movies, it doesn't make any god damn sense. First of all, if you play with fire, you're going to get burned. Sex leads to attachment. So ok, you're allowed to have sex, but only if you just go to the club in coruscant, get high on death sticks and bring a drunk girl back to the jedi temple? That's OK, but the minute you take her out to dinner you're an outlaw? Ridiculous.

Jedi is based on Eastern philosophies of detachment. No emotions should get in the way.

No way they're officially allowed to be out there having sex. Don't make no sense.

That makes perfect sense though. I'm going with that.

 

Maybe the Order is ok with light relationships (i.e. friends with benefits). As long as they don't interfere with the Jedi's duty.

 

Precisely. The Jedi constantly show emotion. Especially Obi Wan. When he is not in frustration on TPM, he is angry at Anakin, yelling about democracy or yukking it up.

Good to see you Nordom.