Jedi and sex

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Sidious143, Feb 9, 2003.

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  1. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    That was just unnecessary

    And didn't the original poster ask for everyone to be mature about this topic
  2. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    I'm interested to see how often self-control is equated with celibacy. (I speak here as the kind of Catholic Cardinal Ratzinger would like to throw out in order to create a "smaller, purer Church.")* Personally, I see a contradiction in the logic:

    Self-control + Desire to eat = enough to keep healthy
    ". . . . . . ." Desire to sleep = ditto
    ". . . . . . ." Desire for affection = enough to keep connected to other human beings
    ". . . . . . ." Desire to be productive = enough to make life meaningful
    ". . . . . . ." Desire for sex = Don't you even think about it

    If a person with exemplary self-control (in this case, read "Jedi") is allowed to fulfill other human desires in moderation, why not the desire to be sexual? It's true that some people's sexual urges have become warped and out of control, but the same could be said for the urge to eat or the urge to work.

    Basically, I think sex is getting a bum rap.

    (FWIW, celibacy isn't the same thing as abstinence. I don't mean to step on the toes of those who strongly believe that people should abstain from sex until marriage. I have no problem with that. In fact, that belief implies that sex is just fine under certain circumstances, just like eating is fine under some circumstances.)

    * A quick check for the spelling of Ratzinger's name on Google revealed The Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club. I think this site is serious. I am now officially scared.
  3. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    Well I think that eating and sleeping are required to live. Sex is not REQUIRED

    Thats the difference in my book. And I'm not saying sex is wrong, if it wasn't for it I wouldn't be here

    But I am perhaps biased on the subject because for religious reasons I practice celibacy, so this self-control I speak of is inherent in my religion and life. The only down-side is that kids at my church get married by the time their 19 to make up for this, which I think is just stupid, but anyways

    The way I see it is if I can do it then surely the Jedi can, being as how they train all their lives to control their emotions
  4. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Sex is not REQUIRED "

    Otherwise, we wouldn't be spending so much damn time in these forums ;)
  5. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
  6. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    Affection and the ability to be productive aren't "required" either--thousands of people live without them. Humans can also live without friendship, self-respect, and joy. However, nobody ever asks them to, certainly not in the name of self-control.

    I don't want to question your personal decisions about sexuality. However, when you mention young people marrying at 19 to avoid premarital sex, that sounds like absintence to me, not celibacy.

    In common usage, celibacy means "I do not have sex." Catholic priests, monks, and nuns are supposed to be celibate.

    Abstinence is generally held to mean "I will not have sex until I'm married."

    (Actually, their literal definitions are reversed, but since we already had that flame war on another thread, let's ignore these facts, shall we?) :)

    A person who endorses abstinence is saying that sex is fine under certain circumstances, in this case, marriage.

    In fact, the only group that comes to mind that had a true religious commitment to celibacy were the Shakers. They did not marry, have sex, or give birth to their own children, since they considered the world so fallen and close to destruction that it would be cruel to bring children into it. Despite an adoption policy that sort of resembled the Jedi's, the Shakers died out, for pretty obvious reasons.

    FWIW, although the Catholic Church requires a life of celibacy for almost all those in religious life, it is quite open about the fact that the celibacy requirement is a long-held custom and not a part of religious doctrine. In fact, total condemnation of the reproductive act is considered life-denying.

    I think you'd have a hard time finding a real-life religious group that actually mandated true, lifelong celibacy for all members, which is how many people prefer to view the Jedi.

    We all have our personal continuums, of course, but I just don't see the logic in saying that the Jedi ought never to have sex because total celibacy represents a greater commitment to self-control--not unless a commitment to never having friends would be equally admirable.

    Please understand that I am not knocking the young people in your church who choose to be abstinent until marriage, or those who voluntarily choose a lifetime of celibacy. I just don't see how a doctrine of "sex is always bad for all our group members at all times" is a more responsible or "pure" position than allowing sex in certain situations. To the contrary, I think it really is "life denying."
  7. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    WELL said, Ophelia.

    A lot of people I know in a certain church marry young 19 or so, because abstinence is required so they marry quickly because - in their own words - they just can't hold out anymore. Hardly a good reason to get married - or stay married for that matter - and hardly a sign they believe ultimate celibacy is 'natural, necessary and a desired path' in their religious convictions.

    Strange.

    Again, GL said the Jedi can have sex. They are so very controlled about everything else, as Ophelia says, why not this in moderation? Get forbidden fruit out of the way. It's doubtful the Jedi would turn the Temple into a meat market, no matter what the fanboys may fantasize about.

    * A quick check for the spelling of Ratzinger's name on Google revealed The Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club. I think this site is serious. I am now officially scared. ROTFLMAO!! [face_laugh] [face_laugh]
  8. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    A lot of people I know in a certain church marry young 19 or so, because abstinence is required so they marry quickly because - in their own words - they just can't hold out anymore. Hardly a good reason to get married - or stay married for that matter - and hardly a sign they believe ultimate celibacy is 'natural, necessary and a desired path' in their religious convictions.

    I agree, which is why I said I think when the people I know marry young so they aren't breaking any rules is stupid. It isn't a good reason to get married, and usually they have kids by the time they're 21-22 or somewhere around there and I think that just opens a pandora's box for a young couple

    But for the other post I see your point, but I think the Jedi are encouraged not to have any friends other then their masters and perhaps some fellow jedi, all others are not to be interacted with on a social level to avoid any sense of attachment. Which I think goes with what I'm saying

    And I know GL has said they have, but when I made my first reply on this thread I did not know this, so I am now simply explaining why I thought so in the first place

    :D
  9. dante_ra Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    This is straight from the Starwars.com databank. In reference to Ki-Adi-Mundi.

    "Despite adherence to the Jedi philosophies, Ki was, in his hearts, a Cerean. He followed the Cerean custom of polygamous marriage, taking a bond wife, Shea, and four honor wives. He fathered seven daughters and became a strong community leader. "

    So, not even marriage is fobidden by the Jedi, let alone sex. Perhaps Ki got around the "attachment" issue by not being with one person, but having 5 wives.
  10. Darth_Sidious143 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 1
  11. MacIntoshyStation Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2003
    "I think that the reason there was chosen one was to destroy the old Jedi Order which had many problems like not allowing for sex
    which explains that Anakin was chosen to destroy the old jedi order too

    hmmmmm kinda like some current real world church scandals threatening the rules fo that faith?
  12. Glockenspiel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 1
    <must restrain from making dirty jokes, must restrainnnnnnnnnnnnn>.

    Okay I think I'm ready now.

    I'm sure they do, maybe not the most pious ones like Yoda, (poor guy 900 yrs without?) But that's human psyche, need, maybe sex means nothing to aliens except reproduction, so were strictly talking humans here right! You have to imagine it goes on, how do you keep tabs on 10,000+ Jedi?
  13. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    If a female Jedi has sex and gets pregnant is she expected not to get attached to the baby?

    Now that would be difficult.

    If the Force runs in families - is genetic, then wouldn't the Jedi be encouraged to pro-create. Wouldn't test tube babies, surrogate mothers be a way of avoiding the attachment problem. Sounds cold, but this question does throw up these sort of ideas.

    gez
  14. JediHunterCommand Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2003
    star 1
    I think this might be the solution.

    I don't remember Anakin's conversation with Padme on board the refugee ship very well, but IIRC basically he said that Jedi were "encouraged to love" -- but not to get too firmly attatched. I shudder to think of the Jedi following a "love 'em and leave 'em model" (after all, these are role models we're talking about), but maybe that's what Anakin was getting at. Jedi are forbidden to love so totally that it supercedes their duty.

    Of course the problem comes around when Anakin (or guys like me) can't help it and fall for someone so totally that there's no getting out of it.
  15. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    I always thought that sex was forbidden for the Jedi of the Old Jedi Order - a.k.a., they are not supposed to do it. Isn't the whole point of the Light Side of the Force about calm, serenity, and balance? And sex - well, by its very definition, it goes against almost everything aforementioned. I assumed that Jedi didn't have any sex since they, being users of awesome and incredible power, don't want to ever risk turning to the Dark Side by losing their balance/calm/serenity/etc.

    Aunecah
  16. ObiKajanee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2003
    star 1
    >>I always thought that sex was forbidden for the Jedi of the Old Jedi Order - a.k.a., they are not supposed to do it. Isn't the whole point of the Light Side of the Force about calm, serenity, and balance? And sex - well, by its very definition, it goes against almost everything aforementioned. I assumed that Jedi didn't have any sex since they, being users of awesome and incredible power, don't want to ever risk turning to the Dark Side by losing their balance/calm/serenity/etc.<<

    As previously stated, the creator of the Jedi Order, George Lucas himself, says the Jedi are not celibate. Sex, lovemaking, whatever you want to call it, isn't, by its very definition, the opposite of calm, serenity and balance. Sex is a biological function. A pretty darn fine biological function, to be sure, but strip away all of the cultural/religious/psychological trappings, and that's what you have. The Jedi seem to be highly physically trained and in tune with their bodies. From that point of view, it seems more natural that sexuality would be part of the Jedi lifestyle than that it would be forbidden.

    Just my half credit's worth.
  17. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    No, it isn't exactly the opposite of serenity and calm, I'll grant you that - but it comes pretty close. But if GL said that the Jedi aren't celibate, then who am I to argue with him? On the other hand ... he could be talking about those Jedi who need to marry (like Ki-Adi Mundi, I believe :confused:), couldn't he?

    This brings up interesting points - I do hope that the Jedi keep a close eye on their apprentices and make sure that they aren't "straying from the path."

    *Shrugs* I will always say that sex might not be the best thing the Jedi could have unless in moderation. [face_mischief]

    Aunecah
  18. Grand_Duchess_Olga Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    I was reading Mythmaker, by John Baxter, about GL, and there was a part the author quoted from the first "Star Wars" screenplay:

    General: You are trained well, but remember, a Jedi must be single-minded, a discipline your father obviously never learned, hence your existence. Clean yourself up. Discipline is essential. Your mind must follow the way of the Bendu.

    This is when General Skywalker finds Starkiller in a supply closet with a woman having sex.

    So it seems since Starkiller was just reprimanded for not keeping his mind on the mission (proably get a similar speech if he was found gambling or goofing off), and not neccisarily repremanded for "shaming" the Bendu way, maybe sex isn't really a bad thing for the Jedi.
  19. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    If George says its okay for Jedi to have sex then whats the problem? CENSORED

    Mod Edit: Don't flame again [face_plain]
  20. Mateo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2001
    star 4
    I have that movie Modern Probelms with Chevy Chase,great movie, maybe thats only small time compared to what a Jedi Master can do though,although according to Anakin in AOTC the Jedi frown upon using the Force to do normal things that normal people can easily do,its basically regarded as being lazy, although jedi should understand that they have no right to express their belief to other jedi.

    I think that Jedi being normal beings must have Sex present in their lives,its a normal thing and depriving them of it would only drive them crazy,for all we know maybe their are Species in Star Wars like the Vulcans in Star Trek that require it at least once a year or they have serious probelms that result from it.
  21. robot717 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 2
    Lightsabers have a dual purpose.They also serve as marital aids in case of such an emergency.
  22. lightsaber_wielder Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2002
    star 4
    I'm pretty sure that it would be against the Jedi Code to have sex. The mental discipline that they go through in training should be enough to restrain them. Still, there were the occassional odd ones out, such as Anakin. It's also been said that Corellian Jedi weren't really fond of the Code either.
  23. metaforcesaber Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2002
    star 2
    When Qui-Gon talks to Shmi, he asks who Anakin's father was. When Obi-Wan talks to Luke on Dagobah, he says that "the Emperor knew as I did that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him." Those two examples, along with some others I'm too lazy to research, imply that the Force (ok fine I'll say it: midichlorians) are involved with genetics, and can be passed to offspring.

    GL was influenced by Dune was he not? Remember in that story how the Bene Gesserit had that whole breeding program designed to preserve the DNA strands of men who they deemed worthy. That's sorta kinda relevant to this topic. Or not.

    Anyway, what I'm getting at is: although sex may be against some prescript of the Jedi code, I don't think the punishment for violating that rule, if it officially exists, is very severe. If the Force is somewhat genetic, wouldn't it make sense to...uh...well, for lack of a better descriptor- let Jedi "breed" to some extent? Which brings up another point. I think Yoda wanted Anakin to father children. I think Yoda foresaw a lot more than I originally thought. Ok, where's the Yoda = Cupid thread?
  24. Augury Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2003
    Just wanted to add my two cents, sort of. :p

    Personally, I don't define 'attachment' as marriage, or having sex. 'Attachment', in the way it's used in SW (in my mind ;) ), means caring about a person more than anything else. By that I mean, Anakin loves Padme so much he would turn to the Dark Side for her. Obi-Wan, even if he loved someone that much, would (or would not supposed to) do that. He would put his principles first, if that makes sense. Does that make sense? :p

    I think in Anakin's case he knows it's forbidden because his love for Padme is so strong it's an obsession. Marriage and marital relations would strengthen such a bond and feelings, and therefore would be 'forbidden' in that context. He's putting Padme above everything else (as he nearly/pretty much did in AOTC, when she fell out of the flying ship thing). If your loved one was about to be killed, but you knew if you let that loved one be killed Earth would be saved, what would you do? For a Jedi, the choice would be obvious - for Anakin, less so, I think.

    Okay, now that you've read all that you can tear my argument apart. ;)

    And yes, I know that's really not about whether Jedi have sex or not, but it is, kind of. So by what I just said, I think Jedi can have sex, and be married . . . they just have to follow the rules. ;)
  25. Cow_Girl Chapter Rep Niagara ON, CA

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 5
    I actually do think that the Jedi would have sex. To me, Marriage and sex are two completely diffrent things. While they are not allowed to marry, They do have sex. It is something that is known, but just not talked about. You know, kept in the bedroom ;)

    There is nothing wrong or dirty about Sex, its a normal Human urge. Just becuase the Jedi have been given the gift of being able to use the force, doesn't make them any less human.

    and thats my take :)
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