Lit Jedi and Sith = Yin and Yang?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by darklordoftech, Jul 21, 2013.

  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I disagree.

    The metaphor of the Force worked wonders as something for the Christian God, Eastern religious ideas about the universe, and numerous other things.

    The more you define it, the less it becomes everything and the more it becomes this specific thing.
  2. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    What do you disagree about? I thought I was saying the same thing, that it can be compatible with most anything so long as the stories don't go too far into detailing it. I mean, if that be it, then he should have written that as a directive. But as it is, we have authors openly criticizing the interpretation held by other authors and working to undo it, so there clearly wasn't any directive to that extent. But I do think Lucas does have a certain cosmology or metaphysics in mind that is primarily a meshing of Buddhist, Hindu, Daoist, and Jungian thought.

    Though I'd be curious to hear about Christian or Abrahamic influences in general. I think the dualism of those religions tends to make them less relevant than the eastern ones, at least for the purposes of spirituality in Star Wars.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Aug 30, 2013
  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Though I'd be curious to hear about Christian or Abrahamic influences in general. I think the dualism of those religions tends to make them less relevant than the eastern ones, at least for the purposes of spirituality in Star Wars.

    The concept of falling, temptation, salvation, forgiveness, repentance, and the conflict between the Sith and Jedi Order as one of good vs. evil has reflections in Eastern religion but not to the levels it does in Western religion. Lucas combined the two quite effectively and the focus of Falling and Salvation through Forgiveness is a very very Western thing.
    Gamiel likes this.
  4. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    So it's not so much representative of the Force but of the characters.
  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    No, not at all. Given the characters and their relationship to the Force is central to the movies.
  6. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Yeah, but redemption, falling, et al. are thematic elements and not part of the Force, just like they're thematic elements in films that aren't Star Wars that don't have the Force. Just because the characters use the Force or are Jedi knights doesn't mean that those themes are relevant to the phenomenon that is the Force, anymore than the theme of the hero's journey is represented in the metaphysics of the Force or the cosmology of the Force.

    To put it another way: you could strip the Force from the plots of the films and all those things (redemption, fall, salvation, forgiveness, repentance, etc.) would still be present in them. But the Buddhist, Daoist, and Hindu elements wouldn't be.

    Edit: And that's not to say that I dislike those themes at all -- I'm just calling it as it is. Personally I was extremely disappointed by the fact that Jacen wasn't redeemed and those themes weren't present in Legacy of the Force, because I think they're crucial to Luke's characterization and I think he's a character that would die trying to redeem his nephew before he strikes him down, or sends a proxy to do so.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Aug 30, 2013
  7. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I'm just saying that how the characters relate to the Force is related to that.

    Also, the Light and the Dark.
  8. Solent Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 2
    As a matter of fact it does. It keeps itself balanced, and if it is unbalanced it takes action to correct itself. I find also significant that Anakin was born outside Jedi sphere of influence, and found by the only open minded Jedi of that generation.

    Otherwise I wouldn´t say Anakin chose to fall. Becoming so emotionally unstable is not a choice, but a matter of upbringing. Then again, Jedi seem to have some trouble with self criticism when somebody falls, just blaming the fallen despite the fact they trained him/her. That that boring Disciple from KotoR 2 was the one to point it out is even weirder.
  9. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    There's no evidence at all that the *Force* did anything. It is an open question and as far as we know either the midichlorians or Plagueis created Anakin.
    Gamiel likes this.
  10. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    The midiclorians aren't sentient, though.
  11. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    That's true -- but if they're induced to do something, it may not be through conscious direction, but some other mechanism.

    Plagueis thought it was blowback -- in Jungian terms, I'd called it Enantiodromia.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Aug 31, 2013
  12. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Yeah, I'm not too happy with the retcon.

    Though, admittedly, it was a retcon to the....questionable...idea of Anakin as the Force's baby.
  13. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Which retcon? People here seemed to think the novel didn't eliminate the possibility that Plagueis was responsible.
  14. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I actually mean the retcon Plagueis was responsible at all.
  15. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Ah. I liked the ambiguity that it presented and, if true, the irony that the Sith are the instrument of their own destruction -- which fits with Lucas calling them a cancer.
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    It just makes the universe rather extraordinarily small.

    Even more than usual.
  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I don't see it that way -- Anakin is the crux of the film saga. The insinuation of Episode I is that it's serendipitous that Qui-Gon encounters Anakin, which Qui-Gon calls the will of the Force. "Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident." Qui-Gon is definitely a teleologist, and I see Anakin's saga as being an evolution toward a directed end, albeit not one that is guided by an intellect but that simply is.