Jedi Apprentice Discussion Board

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cerassi, Nov 20, 2000.

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  1. Austin_Solo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 3
    I read the first 3, then lost interest in the rush of NJO.
  2. Mistress_Renata Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    Well, according to the chronology at the beginning of NJO, the JA novels take place about 11 years prior to TPM, and 44 years prior to SW:ANH. I would be very surprised to find that Valorum is Chancellor; surely he's on his way up in his Senate career. And Palpatine may not be elected yet. Anyway, I was surprised that Mace Windu is on the Council; I would expect there'd be some turnaround there, as well.

    And NO SPOILERS for #11! I still haven't got it yet! Maybe Saturday...
    --Renata
  3. Bubba Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2000
    star 5
    Valorum wasn't elected until a few years before TPM, right before Acts of War.
  4. Mistress_Renata Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    Okay, this should go up now.

    Okay, finally read #11. Better than #10, for sure. I also hated the cover art.

    What great topic shall we wander into? Having read the JAs (some or all), what questions or thoughts occupy your mind? (Try & do this without spoilers). I'm debating whether it would be feasible, or possible, for Jedi to marry. It would seem that the demands of active duty would keep them away from their family for long periods...certainly Qui-Gonn doesn't seem to get back to the Temple that often. Also, I wonder whether Jedi maintain many ties to their "blood" families...Obi-Wan remembers one visit long ago. It seems to tie in with the old Catholic monastic tradition of essential giving up your old family altogether.

    I dunno...thoughts? Or if you have anything more interesting to debate, throw it into the pool...
  5. Master_Tahl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2000
    star 2
    Did u guys see the thing about #13, its called 'The Dangerous Rescue'. So I wonder is the rescueing Qui going to go through 12 into 13 or is it rescuing someone else?
  6. ninjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2000
    star 3
    One of my favorite parts is at the end of 9 or 10, when Qui Gon has a vision of Obi Wan as an old man on Tattooine as the sun shines on his face. That was incredibly cool to see in the book series, and lends some real depth to the story. I personally thought the whole Melida/Daan thing sucked. Betrayal doesn't suit Obi Wan.
  7. Master Chbel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2000
    star 4
    I thought the Melida/Daan story worked because it showed that Obi-Wan is *reckless.* And that he becomes somewhat cynical by the time of ANH.


    As to Jedi marrying. My guess it depends. Not all Jedi are traipsing across the galaxy trying to save it.


    And thanks for the info on Valorum. Palpatine might be a newly elected senator from Naboo by that point.
  8. The Obi-Wan and Only Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    The Melida/Daan thing wasn't written to show Obi-Wan betray Qui-Gon, but as someone said to show his impatience and recklessness. I personally liked that it showed a more human side to Obi especially when Cerasi died. :(

    I loved that part too ninjedi. It sent shivers down my spine.

  9. princess_of_naboo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 4
    when did/does #11 come out in the US?

  10. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    I wrote a very in depth discussion concerning the Melida/Daan issue shortly after the book was released... but then they wiped the boards and it was lost in the great void of nothingness.

    Essentially, I suggested that my impression, unlike that of many other readers, was that Obi-wan's actions on M/D were NOT out of character - and in fact, were quite understandable if you looked at the broad picture.

    Here you have a boy who has spent his whole life within the restrictive teaching and training of the Temple. He "says" he wants to be a Jedi more than anything, but he has never really had to think about that choice. He was "given" or "sent" to the Temple as a toddler - so he never "consciously" choose the Jedi way of life - it is simply all he knows - all he has trained for throughout his childhood. He knows nothing else.

    Then suddenly he is thrust into a situation where all those qualities that make him a good Jedi Padawan - his compassion, his desire for justice, his strength, his generosity - are brought to the fore by the situation on Melida/Daan. He sees injustice and want to right it - but the Jedi say "no."

    What to do? Does he follow his heart? Or his training? And suddenly he begins to question, "If turning your back on friends in need is what it means to be a Jedi, then maybe this is NOT what I want to do with my life."

    And he makes one of the most difficult decisions in his young life... to betray Qui-gon. But the alternative is to betray his own heart.

    Later, he comes to realize that there are very good reasons for the Jedi's caution in getting involved in such situations - but at the time, it seemed the right thing to do.

    The choice Obi-wan makes is not something we should take lightly. He basically gives up everything he has ever known. His home. His friends. His future. All in hopes of helping others. How many of us, at age 13 or 14 would have had the courage to willingly walk away from all we knew into a war on foreign land because we felt it was the right thing to do?

    In the end, as we know, Obi chooses to return to the Temple. And contrary to what one might Obi-wan's commitment to the Jedi way of life is not weakened, but strengthened by his momentary break from the Jedi. For when he does return, it is because he has consciously CHOSEN to do so. For the first time in his life, he has made the CHOICE to be a Jedi, not merely following passively along where other have lead him. This is Obi-wan's revelation - his moment of true commitment to the Jedi way of life, and one that I doubt he will ever waver from again.



  11. Mistress_Renata Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    True, but I can certainly understand the Council's caution in allowing him to come back.

    Although he is certainly pondering the wisdom of his decision early on, he doesn't petition to be taken back until AFTER Cerassi is dead and AFTER he's been booted off the Ruling Council. Essentially, he's an outsider with nowhere else to go. And only then does he ask to be taken back, and feels hurt that they don't do it automatically? He'd have a lot more credibility if he'd petitioned for reinstatement before, when he'd actually be giving up something.

    Frankly, I think QG & the Council let him off easy. Given how reluctant he was to take Obi-Wan in the first place, even helping defeat Xanatos wouldn't have restored MY faith in him! I would have made him sweat for at least two more books.

    I know, I'm being hard on him. But I agree, you can definitely see how M/D turned him into the person he became.

    --Renata
  12. celtjedi420 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2000
    star 1
    Does anyone know if the UK release dates are the same as the US? I've only read up to book 9,how many do I need to get?.It's an excellent series although aimed at younger readers It touches on theames that relate to all ages.
  13. ValedaKor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    Mistress Renata and Lagniappe raise interesting points. Can a 14 year old boy determine his destiny, at that age? Should he have been allowed back into the good graces of the Jedi so easily? My answers:

    #1. Because the only life Obi-Wan has known is the life of a Jedi, to me it is understandable that he would think that a life outside the Order might be preferable when he faces making choices that affect the new friends he has acquired. Jude Watson does a very good job of showing how he is torn between the old life and the new one. This is one of the highlights of the series, the realistic conflict between the life of a Jedi and the life of a boy.
    2. Should he have been given such an easy way back into the good graces of the Jedi? Ah, I plead dramatic license! I also think Obi-Wan has learned his lesson. We know that he is strong in the Force, and becomes stronger. His earlier tests only reinforce these lessons.
  14. Cerassi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2000
    star 1
    I just read #9 last night and loved it. The allusions to the future Star Wars New Hope, Empire, and Return of the Jedi were really well put, subtle, but good. And the thing that QG saw that someone mentioned in an earlier post was excellent. I liked the way Watson made new charachters that were complimentary to OW and QG.

    I think Obi-wan was Very torn inside whether he would stay on M/D or go to the Temple, and it shows his reckless side as well. I liked that whole story line and thought Cerasi was very important in Obi-Wan's developement and conciousness of the force and of other worlds, and people.

    -Cerassi
  15. Silencer-7 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 1999
    star 3
    Is the series good enough to buy all twelve (correct number?) books at once?
  16. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2000
    star 4
    Hi, just wanted to participate in this thread. Haven't much time, but will discuss matters in the next few days...

    Please, guys, no spoilers, I've read all the books so far, but I think it's unfair if someone looks around and finds himself spoiled. The cliffhangers are always that good...

    One thought: I once heard it was planned as 20 books. That would mean: last book in May 2002...
    Will we see a Jedi Apprentice series about Obi-Wan and Anakin as well?

  17. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    Gray 1,

    Although I agree with your point about spoilers, I am somewhat befuddled about how we can have a "Discussion Board" without referring to content in the books. I, for one, am hoping this thread gets a little more in depth and analytical than "Boy, these books are cool!" After all, I find these stories a wonderful addition to the SW saga, and especially useful in adding complexity and layers to the Obi/Qui relationship - something I personally felt was lacking in TPM. When something in these books strikes me, I want to "talk" about it with like minded readers. How am I to do so and completely avoid spoilers?

    Any suggestions, please? :)
  18. ValedaKor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    I also agree with Lagniappe. A discussion implies that you are able to write about all aspects of a subject, and one must be free to do this without fear of "giving something away." I also would be happy to indulge in an in-depth study of ALL the books. Now if one was merely doing a review of the books, I would feel differently (I'm a book reviewer myself, so know whereof I speak).
    Lagniappe - is there a point you'd like to start with? I'd be pleased to see it.
  19. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    Hmmmm. Okay, ValedaKor...I'll bite! (Softly - just a nip!) It has been several months since I read most of the books, so nothing is coming to mind right at the moment, except I recall begin a bit perturbed when Wolverton described Obi-wan as being big for his age, and being teased about his height, etc. Looking at McGregor, I always felt that Obi would have been small for his age... I mean, he's no Liam Neeson, you know! LOL!!! However, I readily admit to a "shortness" bias, being only five feet tall myself, I rather like the idea of a short hero. However, this really isn't a discussion point, so let's try Xanatos.

    Here is a character who certain caught the popular imagination, judging from the number of readers who are drawn to him (not to mention the great amount of fanfic which features our resident "bad boy.") Why the fascination? Are we in some way 'enticed' by the idea of a 'dark side' apprentice, or are we perhaps looking for some redeeming qualities in Xanatos? He was, after all, Qui-gon's apprentice. Surely something of his master rubbed off on him. And what affect did Xanatos' betrayal have upon Qui-gon himself? How much of it is reflected in his reluctance to take Obi-wan on as his apprentice? Was it self-doubt? Did he fear he would be unable to be a proper master to young Kenobi? Or did he fear that Kenobi too would betray him in the end? Both perhaps?

    Personally, I found Xanatos' demise somewhat anti-climactic, and Qui-gon's reaction to the whole thing too controlled and distant. I imagined more emotional involvement on his part. After all, this young man had been like a son to him. I think a scene in which he privately grieved would have added a great deal... I was also looking for a more dramatic "punch," perhaps a situation in which Qui-gon was forced to choose between saving Obi-wan or saving Xanatos... but that is just personal taste.

    I now yield the floor to all those "Xan" fans out there....

    Let your voice be heard.
  20. Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2000
    star 4
    Ouch. Yeah, that hit home. Of course we need to know about the books to talk about them...
    Maybe if we wait for a certain time before we go into depth regarding a new book?

    About Xanatos (who would be a legitimate topic then), I think it's clear that Qui-Gon has already made his peace with the matter because he found Obi-Wan. I admit that I didn't think too much about that when I read the books, but Xanatos' end was quite good, because it is clear that it was his own choice to die.
    Then again, it's a book for young readers, so they maybe didn't want the heroes to go for the kill (like with Bruck, who died by accident). I really shook my head when I read about lightsabers in stunning mode in The Hidden Past - they only killed droids or beasts so far, I believe.

    OB1's development was good. The series started with some problems, because Qui-Gon was too cautious and OB1 was too open. That guy in #2&3 reminded me a lot of Jar Jar, and QG was reluctant, while OB1 liked him right away. #8 showed them behaving like they did in The Phantom Menace.

    Reminds me of... What about a JA special called The Phantom Menace? It would fit into the title pattern, and I think it would give good insights into the characters (Obi-Wan sees his master die!) without being like a journal (I didn't really like those. I only read Maul).
  21. Master Chbel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2000
    star 4
    I like Xanatos as a villain. I wouldn't invite him over for dinner.

    Good villains are worth a lot in a series. They somehow intrigue the reader/viewer.

    Villains can be fun to write, since they have a darkside we can only imagine. How many of us will actually get a chance to plot a galactic take-over?
  22. ValedaKor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    Lagniappe, little nips are OK...I'm a Jedi Knight, I can take it! LOL

    Why the fascination with Xanatos? Hmmm...I think the image he conjures up -- the dark wraith -- has a lot to do with it. Being a creature of the dark side, he certainly fits the part. When he faces Qui-Gon for the "first" time after his return (I forget just exactly which book it's in), and says to Qui-Gon after igniting his lightsaber, "No, Qui-Gon, now I have gone too far," it conjures up a chilling scene. I certainly don't think Xanatos has any redeeming features. He used the Jedi and especially Qui-Gon to achieve his ends, and leaves them without a moment's hesitation. That to me is the essence of a villain -- the black, cold heart. The character has been written up well, IMHO.

    That said, I also found the big death scene to be anti-climatic (but he IS dead, isn't it? I'm not sure I'm convinced!). As Grey1 has mentioned, this is after all a YA series, and I should think the authors have been asked not to delve too deeply when killing off characters, although we have lost a few. (BTW, I was a bit surprised at the violence, implied and otherwise, in #11.)

    As to the effect of all this on Qui-Gon, it's clear that he's worried about the trust factor. And Obi-Wan certainly does not make it easier. Qui-Gon is stronger than I would have been -- Id'a tossed in the towel right after Obi-Wan said "See ya!" Ah, the ignorance of youth; you have to let them see the error of their own ways....But Qui-Gon is strong and secure in the Force, which means he's allowed himself to take a step back for a bit, away from the "here and now" that Master Yoda espouses.

    I do like your idea, Lagniappe of a private, reflective moment for Qui-Gon. As a Jedi, for whom life is sacred, there should have been something to show his reaction. Heck, it could have even been a moment for editorialization, a "consequences of one's actions" moment.

    Anyway, I've gone on. Funny you should mention fan fiction, Lagniappe. I'm working on a book length treatment right now, post-Xanatos and pre-Obi-Wan. 300 pages and counting, starring a young Jedi Knight who teams with a middle-aged Jedi Master to save a Queen who also happens to be a Vampyr. What can I say, I love the EU. Dare I say her name is Valeda Kor?
  23. leif Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 1999
    star 3
    i found 11 at waldenbooks last thursday. i read it sat night and early sunday. thats why i love this series. they are short stories, kinda like star wars tales.

    11 was better than 10. i cant say i really have a favorite one. but i did get bored with Xantos.

    my biggest disappointment with 10 was the intro for 11. they played it to seem like Aurra Sing. so in 11 (SPOILER)i felt let down that there was another female bounty hunter with a shaved head that rides a swoop. so anyways, i pretended it was Arura throughtout the book.
  24. jedimasterED Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 1999
    star 4
    Had it been Aurra Sing, leif, it would have been overkill. Sing's dynamic, unique, and mysterious. Having her appear everywhere would beg the question, "Why haven't the Jedi done something about her by TPM?" One might answer, "'Cause she's that good!", but I don't think so.

    No, I really liked the new female bounty hunter. She's great in her own special way. When I realized she wasn't going to be Sing, I breathed a sigh of relief but developed a dread of her ending up just like Aurra. Thankfully, she's not at all. She's quiet, intense, and exotic in a different way.

    There's no sense in making the big GFFA any smaller by including the same antagonists in every story. It's good that Sing pops up when she does, not earlier, in JA.
  25. Bubba Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2000
    star 5
    A villain I once wrote about in a fanfic story was a Chevin who planned to take over the galaxy using bad poetry (see, "Prelude to Rebellion"), until his death at the hands of bounty hunter Lawg Skrak.

    Another was an Imperial project called I.D.A. (Imperial Death Analyzer) which was put in the form of a children's doll, which carried a thermal detonator. It was ejected out an airlock and hit an Imperial Interdictor cruiser, with the normal explosive results.

    Yet another was the owner of a baradium factory, and he was named Por Pordus. He died when Lawg Skrak dumped a vat of molten baradium on his head.


    If any of you want these stories, feel free to ask. I'm writing a NJO story where the main villain is a Vong called, "The Inflictor of Pain."
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