Jedi Council Members from pre TPM throughout Revenge of the Sith

I have come upon a chronological problem:

Nomi supposedly proposes the "new Council" (which I assume is the Coruscant-based Jedi High Council with 12 members) at Exis Station in 3986.

However, SW Tales indicates this High Council was already established on Coruscant in 3991 BBY, 5 years earlier.

What gives?

The best fix I can think of:

the Jedi Council started meeting regularly on Coruscant by 3991 BBY, but was still larger and more loosely structured, similar to the Council in 3996; in 3986, Nomi reorganized it, still on Coruscant, but now with only 12 members, and more closely tied to the Republic, albeit not considered a division of the Judicial Department until after 1032 BBY.

 

The stories suggest that the "High Council" -- and this is obviously a VERY recent thing, a contorted ur-retcon where one was hardly needed, had the SW Tales #23 author doublechecked the first issue or two of Redemption -- was hegira-ed over to Coruscant from Ossus probably circa 3,996 or 3,995 BBY. This is owing in part for the need to effectively re-establish and resettle the seat of power, since we also hear Atris describe the Ossus evacuation in Knights of the Old Republic II, implying a connection.

It was certainly well-entrenched in the Temple ziggarat around 3,960 BBY, when we see the twelve-seat High Council chambers in the historical archive recordings. This suggests that the Coruscant council prior to the Exis Station event was very ad hoc for the moment, and continued in that fashion for an entire decade. Nomi's initiative can be seen as a stopgap measure, intended to finally solidify the High Council's presence and authority, which -- by further extension -- implies that the Order's mandate to act for the good of the general galactic populace after the Exar Kun war wasn't particularly skyhigh.

It needed an infusion of legitimacy, and it seems clear that the outlying enclave councils were the ones wearing the pants in the family, up until the point where the Great Hunt ended; and it appears that they're at last starting to defer to Coruscant's authority more and more. As for the High Council's composition, from what the SW Tales story suggests, Vrook, Bala, Qual, and Aleco weren't expressly on it as such, since they're outright discussing having to march to Coruscant's tune against whatever plans they'd already made.

Based upon Vrook's senior standing nearly 40 years later, he'd likely fit the bill of qualifications, although even up to the end of the Mandalorian Wars and the Exile's trial, he still wasn't present there (or else too far away at the front to make it back in time). Too, we also later see something of yet another schism in the Jedi ranks along the enclave-centered lines, with the "Jedi Lords" staking out their own fiefdoms and heraldry and orders of battle over the heads of the Coruscanti council circa the Light and Darkness/Ruusan war. This would further serve to drive a crowbar between the greater Order and the Republic, and the sudden repatriation under the Judicial Department apparat after Ruusan seems to be a direct reaction to these events.

 

So, basically, you're saying Nomi wasn't creating something brand new, just describing the direction in which she envisioned the already existing Council evolving?

I agree the Dantooine Councillors in Tales were probably not High Councilors at the time, but they may have all served at the High Council before or afterwards, as Vrook did; they do speak, in the Tale, of the Coruscant Council as "others" excluding themselves.

I still want to know what happened to Nomi during the Mandalorian Wars, War of the Star Forge, Purge on Katarr, etc.

POTJSB speaks of Odan-Urr, Vodo Siosk-Baas, and Thon as members of the Jedi Assembly, which I am assuming is the proper name of the pre-Exar Kun War body which is sometimes loosely called the "Jedi Council," as in the Jedi Temple history in POTSB. THe Council on Coruscant in in SW Tales may=the Jedi Assembly, since there is no proof of its size at that time, and maybe only after Exis was it shrunk to the 12-member High Council as we are more familiar with it, as seen in KOTOR II and the Prequel movies.

Did the Jedi Assembly in TOTJ differ from the Convocation? Did the Assembly consist of ALL Jedi Masters, or just a select few?

 

My understanding was that the Jedi Assembly is something much larger. Think of the gathering at Mount Meru. And the Council was the body of Jedi Masters with the prestige and authority (official or merely honorary) to act as the de facto (if not de jure) leadership of the Jedi Order.

Thon, Vodo, et al gathering in Odan-Ur's Great Library was merely the venue.

 

Pretty much that, yes...more of a continued, directed oversight and reconsolidation of the greater Jedi admistrative structure than the loosey-goosey, ashram-like existence that we saw on Ossus earlier.

Nomi foresaw the need for a strong, centralized -- for lack of a more apt term -- bureaucracy to reign in the Order's affairs and exert a firm hand over its dealings and methodologies, coming as they were in the wake of one of the greatest training-policy cockups in their history. Student turning against student, turning against master, with many flaws in that philosophy suddenly spotlighted for the entire galaxy to see. The Order's dirty laundry could no longer be concealed.

The Exis Station gathering was undoubtedly as much a P.R. media event as it was a legitimate congress of dialogue. The galaxy had to be reassured that the Jedi Order could still be entrusted to hold its own membership in check against their personal ambitions. And as you mention, there is certainly a disparity in effect between the "Jedi Assembly" moniker from TOTJ and the retconnic "Jedi Council" name from the Power of the Jedi sourcebook; clearly it was massive in its scope -- as I'm fond of pointing out, there are probably more Jedi visible in one panel during the Mount Meru convocation in Dark Lords of the Sith #2 than are in the entire prequel-era Order.

It is obviously a far more inclusive club than what we see in just a few years' time, by 3,960 BBY and the Masters-only seats within the Temple. My take on this is, what we now know as the "High Council" proper did not gain formal substance until after the Great Sith War, with the reform-driven factions in the Order logrolling it into existence. Although it might have existed prior to this, simply the élite inner-circle within the larger "Jedi Assembly," which encompassed both Knights and Padawans.

One interpretation of this also takes into account both the enclave system at that point in history, as well as the very personal, two-on-one hermitages of masters like Thon -- at the time leading up to the Great Sith War, such a system was commonly accepted, with its greater outlying body of Jedi Masters still belonging to the "Jedi Assembly" (whose exact membership numbers we never learn). Although, once the Sith War ends, and it's revealed that such a system resulted in the dark-side turn of many of these students (Oss Wilum, for example), things changed.

Within three years' time, we start to see the Coruscant High Council -- a new official title? -- beginning to exert more and more influence over the affairs of the enclaves, and this trend culminates in 3,985 BBY with Nomi's formal proposal at Exis Station to "reform" the Jedi Order. However -- getting back to the abovementioned "P.R. event" thing -- this is simply a dog-and-pony show for the c

 

Yeah, I think you are right, I think Nomi was speaking in the "political perfect," of a "bright future" she had already laid the foundation for.

Or at least, that is the best recon for the present situation.

It may be that the Council on Coruscant was already in existence at the time of the Great Hunt, and the Exis Station event marked the last meeting of the "Jedi Assembly," which was disbanded by Nomi to solidify the Coruscant High Council's authority, although enclave councils remained until 3951 BBY; Mical's new Jedi High Council may have been the first Council with no underling enclave councils.

I looked in the CUSWE, and it says that the Jedi Assembly on Deneba consisted of 10,000 Jedi Masters, and was also called the Great Council of Deneba, which may be why it was called the Jedi Council in POTJSB. This seems to indicate that all Jedi Masters held equal wait, although someone mentioned a scene in which Odan-Urr, Ood Bnar, Thon, and Vodo Siosk-Baas formed an "inner circle."

Also, in TOTJ, didn't Vodo more or less preside over Dantooine Enclave by himself, but later in the KOTOR games it has a 4-person Council? I wonder why that change.

 

Considering her role at Exis Station, is it reasonable to think that in Redemption Nomi was a Jedi Master and had succeeded the deceased Odan-Urr as Head of the Jedi Assembly? WOuld the Exis Convocation represent the last Jedi Assembly?

 

That seems to be the situation pretty much, with the High Council established in that story as being the ruling overbody in the Order by 3,993 BBY, having a great deal of input into the affairs of the Dantooine council. Regarding the "Mical's new Jedi High Council" bit -- are you referring to your character in KOTOR II, and the death of Vrook and the rest of the Masters on Dantooine? Right there would be a logical jumping-off point for a new vision of the Order, although evidence suggests that the enclave-system either continued outside of Dantooine, or laid fallow for a number for a number of years/centuries and then returned with a vengeance (Almas, Belsavis, et cetera).

And the balkanization of the Order during the Light and Darkness War would effectively count toward this phenomenon, too -- we're looking at many individual, itinerant "Jedi Lords" more or less setting up their own system of instruction away from the Temple (Torr Snapit springs instantly to mind), not unlike Master Thon's philosophy back in Ye Olden Dayes. Appears to be a cyclical/"seasonal" thing, coming into vogue at various times before falling into disfavor again.

That might be as good a retcon as any for the "Jedi Assembly" moniker from the comics; and again, I find it quite extraordinary that there could be ten thousand Jedi Masters in one place at one time for one event, when there aren't even ten thousand knights and padawans in the entire Jedi Order by the time the Clone Wars start up.

In those scenes (from Dark Lords of the Sith #3, not #2...my bad), we see Odan-Urr sitting over the entire Deneba convocation, with Thon standing beneath him; the caption to watch here is the one stating, "Master Odan-Urr [...] has presided over Jedi Assemblies like this one for six centuries" (or words to that effect), which is a major clue. Apparently such assemblies only meet in times of great duress, as an earlier caption in that issue mentions, very unlike the permanently-seated Coruscant council from only a few years later. Additionally, it seems that the Jedi Masters in charge of each individual enclave/ashram had the first and last say-so on the training techniques used in their domain, and weren't necessarily beholden to the dictates of a far-off, ivory-towered ruling body. Which soon changed.

Although we don't have an in-continuity reason for why Vodo's one-man rule over Dantooine changed into four, everything else mentioned above points to a probable reason why: More Masters in charge cast a wider perspective on the training of the apprentices under their watch, and it can't be a coincidence that this switch happened in the very facility where Exar Kun himself was trained. From that point on, they'd be wanting to nip potential problem-padawai in the bud before they could sprout and spread

 

I don't think Anakin replaced anybody; I always assumed they just 'added' a seat on Palpatine's orders. That was why Anakin didn't get a vote; he was more of an observer than true member.

 

nah, there are still just 12 seats, and Tasty Taste confirmed him as one of the 12

Well, Leto, I guess we got it all sorted out, so direct Tasty Taste over here so he can educate himself

Hehe

 

I always thought of the Jedi Assembly as the Jedi version of the Ecumenical Council. The Assembly as a whole could overrule the Jedi Council... but the Jedi Council was driving the bus the rest of the time.

The Assembly was technically be the body that would set the Jedi Code. The Jedi (High) Council would enforce it and suppress heretical deviation from becomming orthodox. When the Code itself was subject to debate over an undefined matter that the Jedi Council's decisions were not being accepted (for good or ill), the Assembly would convene to authoritatively decide the matter for the entire Order. This wasn't an issue of democracy since objective good/evil is beyond democracy (and democracy itself can be subverted as Palpatine's manipulations show) but a matter of a larger perspective of something that affects the whole order.

This certainly applies to the convocation of Deneba. Same with Exis Station. There would certainly have been one following Ruusan. Other likely times would be the formation of the Republic, the Great Schism of the Jedi, Great Hyperspace War, the Hundred Years Darkness, the Vultar Cataclysm, etc etc.

Theoretically there would be nothing from stopping the Jedi Council of the TPM-era from calling an Assembly themselves... but they're not faced with an interpretation of the Jedi Code that's being disputed. I could see the Council calling an Assembly after the Clone Wars had the Jedi Order been able to circumvent Order 66.

 

(A bit belated, but beggars further discussion

That's one method of looking at that situation/problem, and one not without some substantial historical precedent. We can further extrapolate backwards and forwards to similar such actions occurring after the Battles of Ruusan, the Great Schism (as you noted), and similar other upheavals. Following the Clone Wars, perhaps more than any other time in their history, the time would have come for the remaining Jedi to have convened another gathering, yes, had events followed a slightly different curve.

By necessity, it would virtually have to have the sanction of the greater High Council, per what we see going on in SW Tales #23, and one wonders whether Nomi's role in arranging things stemmed out of a probable Coruscant seat, or if not, how far aslant from "accepted" orthodoxy were her viewpoints...and was this Assembly fully sanctioned by the Council itself? For that matter, it seems that the High Council deferred to Odan-Urr's and Thon's prestige and general prerogative in ruling over the Deneban assembly, which points to perhaps a less powerful Coruscant body in those years than it would later become.

You mention the Ecumenical Councils of old as an analog to the Jedi Order's own reactionist attitudes to perceived challenges in law. Not unlike this, something changed in Christian orthodoxy after the so-called Schism of the West. Before that, there was movement and, yes, heresy (since the Church was developing and growing organically in its understanding of truth). This is reflected, too, in the lack of any real Ecumenical Councils in the east for over a millennium.

There were twenty-one Ecumenical Councils called, between the years 1 CE (Jerusalem) and the 1869 CE Vatican Council (not counting Vatican II). Here are some of the twenty-one, and what is believed to be the reason/heresy:

Jerusalem, 1 CE (?) -- Potential heresy regarding whether or not the Gentiles must follow some old prescriptions/canons of the Old Law. I give this one a "maybe," on dealing with heresies.

Nicaea, 325 CE -- Against the Arian heresy.

Constantinople, 381 -- Against the Macedonian heresy.

Ephesus, 431 -- Against the Nestorian heresy.

Chalcedon, 451 -- Against the heresy of Eutyches.

Second Constantinople, 553 -- Condemned the errors (heresies?) of Origen, and writings of "Others."

Third Constatinople, 680 -- Against the heresy of Monothelism.

Second Nicea - Correction of the iconoclast heretics.

Fourth Constantinople, 869 -- not sure about this one, as far as any specific heresy....so I'll take the position that this Council wasn't called for such. (For now, anyway.)

So, looking at this from one perspective, there are three categories of the "reasons" for the calling of these Ecumenical Councils: (1) to counter/condemn heresies, (2) "perhaps" to condemn heresies, along with other matters; and (3) dealing with matters other than heresies. Tying this back into the Jedi Order, more than somewhat:

While we see certain flexibilities inherent to the Jedi Code circa the 4,000-3,996 BBY period (Jedi intermarriage, children, et cetera), had no sooner than three more years passed when we start glimpsing sudden doctrinal shifts in the prescriptions of conduct for the Order's members...Guun Han Saresh's puritanical response to Duron and Shaela's romance, Bastila's reticence to engage in same, and other examples. It's been theorized that such shifts are more the function of "regional" (for want of a better appellation) Jedi mores, and had always been present during the years leading up to the Great Sith War.

And -- by and large -- such theories would seem to be correct, not unlike what we know of the disparate Jedi sects even through the end of the Clone Wars; sects (again) encouraging the spread of marriage, multiple apprentice-training, et al. Evidence suggests that even remote enclaves such as Master Thon's and the Dantooinian academy could stand at doctrinal loggerheads with one another; some hewing to the

 

I think you're onto something there with the Catholic analogies, Leto II.

After all, clerical celibacy was formally instated at one of the Councils as well.

I agree you that likely shifts in Jedi attiudes to celibacy, number of apprentices and the like probably was a result of different "power centres" taking command.

(Just as the centre of power in Christianity shifted from Jerusalem/Antioch/Alexandria to Rome/Constantinople)

Jerusalem, 1 CE (?) -- Potential heresy regarding whether or not the Gentiles must follow some old prescriptions/canons of the Old Law. I give this one a "maybe," on dealing with heresies.

1 CE! Leto, your history-fu is off. Jesus was still a toddler in those halcyon days.

You are more likely referring to c. 50 CE, with the Council at Jerusalem where Paul argued with James and John about the Noahide laws, and Peter came up with the compromise. (ie all Jewish christians would follow them, but not Gentile converts).

Here's the wiki page:

Apart from dealing with heresies, and settling disputes, a lot seem to revolve around who gets to be appointed to important leadership positions, and the disbanding or forming of certain groups. (ie one dissolved the Knights Templar).

I like this one:

First Council of Lyons, (1245) - set a red hat for cardinals



I bet the Jedi had one for setting the "uniforms" so to speak.

 

I think it makes the most sense that terms change. You wouldn't nominate some noob for a life term until he proved himself. What if Yoda happened to inherit a short-term seat? I doubt he "happened" to get a life seat. He made life status when some previous lifer died and he got promoted, I'm sure. It just makes more sense and has far more flexibility that way.

EDIT: Oh. For some reason I didn't see there was a third page. This seems a tad off-topic now. Oh, well.

 

Very, very good point about the Knights Templar -- condemned by the Avignon See for a list of crimes charged by King Philip IV of France during the Crusades (that, and the convenient fact that he also owed them tonnes of money), their lands and property stripped from them and redistributed amongst their "victims." During the Light and Darkness War period, one wonders how many errant Jedi Masters there were out there "protecting" certain sectors against the Sith against the will of their populations and the High Council?

We've seen that this era was unique, insofar that the Jedi Order was schismed between the Council and what amounted to a number of itinerant, unbound Masters -- the "Jedi Lords" from Jedi vs. Sith and the Dietz books -- who roamed far afield from Coruscant and established their own fiefdoms in what seemed to be contested sectors during the war (Lord Hoth winning a battle or battles at his namesake planet, taking his heraldry thence).

Surely there might've been a number of incidents involving unwilling native populaces filing grievances against some of these lords for perceived unconscionable "injustices" committed during the war. The fact that the Temple reconsolidated itself and generally reined in its Masters after Ruusan speaks volumes here as a reaction to this potential cause; public outcry against the inability of the order to ride herd on its own members -- as occurred during the Great Schism, the Great Sith War, and the War of the Star Forge -- could have been a final straw of sorts.

You caught a typo-error on my part, there -- I'd intended to list the date of that Council's forgathering at "c. 49-50 CE," but -- after penning a very general "1 CE [and] the 1869 CE Vatican Council" phrase -- I repetitiously vapor-locked (late hour of the evening) and put down "1 CE" again.

After Ruusan, you mean? Quite probably...in fact, the Power of the Jedi sourcebook mentions that the "sackcloth-and-ashes" look became all the rage circa the post-Light and Darkness War era, with armor-clad Jedi Knights consigned to the rubbish bin of history. Very likely during the same synod(s) where the "Jedi Lords" were officially condemned.