Jedi doesn't equal perfect

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Qui-GonDoug, May 2, 2003.

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  1. Qui-GonDoug Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 1
    Does anybody else notice that a lot of people in these forums confuse jedi for jesus christ? It seems like the expect them to be perfect and never make a mistake. As soon as they make come across any little thing they start talking about them turning to the darkside. Someone once wrote that yoda turned to the darkside because he saved anakin and obiwan (citing i think esb when he says that luke should leave his friends to die if he believes in the cause or whatever). Someone else said mace was on the darkside because he looked mad when he killed jango. To me he was just determined to stay alive and that is why his face looked mad. Even if he had anger for a second it doesn't make him part of the darkside. You can learn from your mistake and change and work on it. That's just what I think. They are allowed to make mistakes, it's learning from them and not repeating them that makes them jedi, not that they are perfect beings.
  2. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Hmm! Interesting topic you've got here, so I'll chime in with my $.02 worth here:

    I definitely don't think that the Jedi are infallible. That would make them so boring and completely ruin everything for me. However, I do think that all Jedi should - or should I say, they are? - try (trying) to reach that level of infallibility.

    Of course, I think Yoda is the only person who's ever come anywhere close to it - my own favorite Jedi, Obi-Wan Kenobi, was loads away from it, though Ben Kenobi's an entirely different case. ;)

    (Yes, I don't like it when people say that Mace was angry when he killed Jango Fett. I thought he killed Jango before he had to; the look on his face after he killed Jango just made it appear as if he regretted taking Jango's life ... even though Jango was an "evildoer." But everything's open to interpretations, I suppose.)

    Aunecah
  3. Ret Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 1999
    star 6
    Right, they certainly aren't perfect. People just like to think they are.
  4. jawamonkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2001
    star 4
    I dont believe mace was mad, he looked like he was concentrating, and afterwards he looked like he was mourning for a life lost
  5. CieSharp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    If Mace was in the spirit of the dark side when killing Jango Fett, then so was Obi-Wan Kenobi when he killed Darth Maul.
  6. Stridarious Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2002
    star 6
    Right, they certainly aren't perfect. People just like to think they are.

    I personally never saw them as being thee most perfect individuals, yet, some may seem them that way. I am most sure they too have their moments when they must choose as Luke and Anakin did.
  7. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    "Right, they certainly aren't perfect. People just like to think they are."

    And yet they try to make themselves as flawless as possible by removing their emotions from being part of their lives. They try to be perfect but in the end, perfection is always unattainable. They can fall back on the old "will of the Force" clause to justify any of their actions.

    Aggression is an unavoidable part of conflict and when Jedi join a fray, I think it's safe to say that they are as aggressive as a situation allows. If you shoot at a Jedi you better make sure you hit him first pop because he's going to stop you doing it again one way or another! Mace killing Jango was certainly aggressive, no doubt about it. Jango was trying to kill him and obviously Mace didn't think too much of it. But I don't get the impression that he was angry or killed out of pure anger. There was a need to kill Jango or else Mace would have been killed himself. I find it far more disturbing that he showed little if any emotion whatsoever over killing another person.

    I also think Luke's reaction to cutting off Vader's mechanical hand in RotJ far more believable than Mace in the AotC Arena...maiming or killing another living creature is a shocking moment that should be upsetting and jarring to the aggressor, particularly when they're Jedi in tune with the Force.
  8. Qui-GonDoug Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 1
    As i posted before, Jedi do and should be allowed to act agressive. If someone is attempting to kill your life you can't sit back and just say damn i'm a jedi i'll be dieing now. And I don't agree that when Mace killed Jango he should have sat there and showed remorse. For all he knew someone else could have been coming in right after that to try and get him again. It was a battle not a funeral. There was no time to sit around feel sorry.

    I don't know if I made myself clear before in my original post. I don't think Mace was mad or nearing the darkside when he killed Jango. I was just making the point that even if he was mad, he still had the opportunity to come to senses and not go to the darkside just as luke did when he fought vader in ROTJ. it's what decisions you make at the end of the day that matter, not little split second fumbles you may have.
  9. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    And yet they try to make themselves as flawless as possible by removing their emotions from being part of their lives. They try to be perfect but in the end, perfection is always unattainable.

    DarthAttorney made this point, and I just thought I'd add my musings to the discussion.

    The Jedi aren't perfect, to seek perfection is to be searching your whole lifetime because its as has been said unattainable.

    The Jedi Order, ever since they defeated the Sith nearly a 1000 years before TPM, sought to defeat the demons that had created the Sith. And create themselves in a perfect manner. What did they do? Shut out the emotions of Fear, anger and hate. Drubbed it out of their Jedi-in-training and for a time they thought they had created a "perfect" system. What they didn't realise was that by supressing those said emotions and denying them from their students they actually created a imperfect system.

    Thats why they are such a decaying, arrogant and decadent Order by the time of the Prequels. And when Anakin Skywalker enters their Order, he exposes this flaw of their so-called perfect system. Because instead of dealing with the emotions which Anakin has they shun him off, act accusingly and don't nuture him.

    It's when they started dying in their droves at the Battle of Geonosis, during the Clone Wars and are wiped out almost to extinction that their shattered system of supposed "perfection" was shown to be a sham.

    And then its not until Luke Skywalker, ironically the son of the one who brought down the system Yoda & Obi-Wan still try to implement with Luke, that the true way of a Jedi is seen.
    To accept your emotions, to let them be a part of you, yet to control them not supress them.
    You can still wave a Lightsaber, use the Force and be a Jedi but you have the advantage of also being Human (or whatever species you maybe ;) ).

    The Jedi don't equal perfect, they are shown not to be through the Star Wars saga but what's shown is that they accept their imperfections and deal with them. For that the Jedi become a more honourable Order, and really, only thanks to Luke.
  10. Qui-GonDoug Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 1
    Well JKBurtola, I couldn't have said it better myself. Believe me, I tried. You took the words I've been wanting to convey right out of my mouth. Thanks
  11. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    The Jedi Order wasn't perfect, nothing is. But from what I can tell their system DID work despite its flaws. Like Feudalism, had plenty of problems but still acheived it's goals

    They defeated the Sith and protected the Republic for a thousand years. And I'm sure they play a major role in the Republic's believed victory of the Clone Wars, only when one of their own betrayed them were they destroyed

    And the one that betrayed them was one that hadn't been through the system the rest had, Anakin began his training when he was 10 while the others started at birth. The council even said that Anakin was to old to train and they were right. If Anakin had been trained from birth like the rest then he most likely wouldn't have turned to the dark-side, he wouldn't have had the fear that led him down the path he chose

  12. MikeSolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2002
    star 4
    I'm gald Jedi don't equal perfect it would make all the movies boring. I feel Mace killed Jango in self defense, just like Obi Wan killed Maul. With Obi Wan, if he didn't finish Maul off, who would of stopped Maul from taking out the Queen. Anakin ? her guards ? I don't think so.... they'd all be dead. Also the Jedi are guardians of peace and justice, and sometimes guardians have to kill those who threaten peace and justice. Anyways thats how I see the whole Jedi killing issue. Considering i'm with Han when it comes to Jedi " Hokey religions and acient weapons are not good for a blaster at your side kid" I won't take my view on this whole issue serious :p
  13. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    I also think Luke's reaction to cutting off Vader's mechanical hand in RotJ far more believable than Mace in the AotC Arena...maiming or killing another living creature is a shocking moment that should be upsetting and jarring to the aggressor, particularly when they're Jedi in tune with the Force.

    He was in the middle of a fight for his survival, he didn't have time for sentiment or weakness that could have cost him his life and the lives of the Jedi who he was leading. He was disciplined enough to keep such thoughts out of his head but I'm sure that he would have reflected on his actions in private after the battle.
  14. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    And the one that betrayed them was one that hadn't been through the system the rest had, Anakin began his training when he was 10 while the others started at birth. The council even said that Anakin was to old to train and they were right. If Anakin had been trained from birth like the rest then he most likely wouldn't have turned to the dark-side, he wouldn't have had the fear that led him down the path he chose

    But thats not a convenient reason for what happened.
    The Jedi Order could well have changed their ways and adapted to Anakin's situation. But they didn't, their system may have worked for one way but it shouldn't have to be like that. They should be able to work in every way, be able to deal individuals and adapt to those circumstances.
    If Anakin wasn't a sign that the Jedi had to change themselves and their ways of working then I don't know what is.
    Luke was the next and innovative signaler of a change to the Jedi Order. He was able to have all the emotions the Jedi forbid yet he was able to control them which made him even more impressive. The Old Jedi didn't understand that. That you could have your emotions and control them, that they aren't a hinderance to your role as Jedi if you don't let them be.

    The Jedi Order was resistant to change, too scared of anything different and arrogantly stuck in their ways. Thats why they were wiped out, if they had adapted to situations and to specifically Anakin, they may well have stood a better chance.
  15. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    The Jedi Order could well have changed their ways and adapted to Anakin's situation. But they didn't, their system may have worked for one way but it shouldn't have to be like that. They should be able to work in every way, be able to deal individuals and adapt to those circumstances.

    Ah, but the whole reason that the Jedi took apprentices (IMHO) at such a young age is precisely because it's easier to teach them to NOT form emotional bonds and such when they're young and their learning potential is so high. Could the Jedi have been adaptable to training Anakin? Possibly. But should they have? No. Period. At nine years of age, Anakin's emotions are too firmly grounded in him for him to let them go. Does that mean that everybody who isn't found by the Order when he's one is doomed? Of course not. Luke is a prime example of that - except that he did almost turn to the Dark Side. He still is more prone to anger and fear than the Jedi of the Old Jedi Order. Why he didn't turn is because he realized that he was becoming the very thing he wanted to save his father from being, and hence he retreated back into the Light. Anakin had no such thing - he willfully disobeyed the rules of the Order that he wanted to be part of because they got in his "personal life." He went and married Amidala even though he knew he shouldn't have. That kind of an attitude doesn't leave much place for success.

    Now that I said that - I know that the Jedi aren't perfect. They can't be because perfection is simply unattainable. You can get close (I'm having a sense of deja vu that I said this already, but anyway) - like Yoda has - but you can't ever be truly seperate from your emotions.

    At any rate, almost every organization that has been established for way too long tends to be less than perfect - arrogance seems to surface, for one.

    Aunecah
  16. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    Could the Jedi have been adaptable to training Anakin? Possibly. But should they have? No. Period. At nine years of age, Anakin's emotions are too firmly grounded in him for him to let them go. Does that mean that everybody who isn't found by the Order when he's one is doomed? Of course not. Luke is a prime example of that - except that he did almost turn to the Dark Side.

    I disagree, very strongly in fact.
    The Jedi could and should have been adaptable. They understood how old Anakin was how far he had developed in terms of emotional bonds, and they could have been able to help him deal with those rather than leave them unattended as they did.
    Just because he has a deep emotional bond with someone doesn't mean he is beyond hope.

    Thats giving up too easily on someone and totally ignorant.
    Anakin would have done exactly what Luke did in ROTJ, if he had been nurtured better and given help to deal with his attachments and emotions.
    The point is that both Anakin and Luke go through the same kind of experience and both could have come out smelling of roses.
    Yes in the end Anakins descent into the Darkside was his own decision, yet it was because of the lack of appropriate help and guidance.


  17. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    The Jedi Order could well have changed their ways and adapted to Anakin's situation. But they didn't, their system may have worked for one way but it shouldn't have to be like that. They should be able to work in every way, be able to deal individuals and adapt to those circumstances.

    But the entire reason the Jedi were set up the way they were was so there would be no special circumstances. No adapting to every individual's situation would be needed because they would all be in the same situation. No emotional attachments and from birth would learn to control their feelings

    But Anakin was the only special case in the Order, and the Council was right to forbid his training. But then they went ahead and let it happen anyways and we all know how that turned out

    If they had followed the rules and not allowed Anakin's training as they initially did the Jedi Purge likely wouldn't have happened
  18. Vanthorne_OX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2002
    star 3
    It's interesting that Anakin doesn't agree with this topic. From the Tusken Confession scene we learn he feels he should be perfect. Padme reminds him he's human, and he reminds her he's a Jedi. The point is being a Jedi does not equal perfect, but Anakin disagrees.

  19. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    JKBurtola - *Sighs* No, I didn't say that Anakin was beyond hope because he loved a person deeply. I said he was beyond hope because he had no respect for rules and was concerned more about his personal life than his commitment to a Jedi. Of course, his nine years as a slave doesn't helps the matters much because he already has a lot of negative emotions in him by that time and it's hard to let them go when they aren't trained out of you in that young age. (It's hard to let them go even if they're "trained out" of you at young age, but it's not difficult.)

    The Jedi, IMHO, shouldn't change their system. Their way of bringing in people is meant to maximize effeciency, and that's always what the Jedi should be concerned about. If they start thinking about special cases like Anakin and keep adapting to each and every single person - which is almost if not quite impossible - then there's only disorder. You need a base rule, you need a cut-off line, and you need to standardize the process by which you do things for them to be effective - because of the size of the Order and the Order's importance in the galactic scheme of things.

    If Anakin hadn't been trained, things may have been drastically different.

    Aunecah
  20. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    But the entire reason the Jedi were set up the way they were was so there would be no special circumstances. No adapting to every individual's situation would be needed because they would all be in the same situation. No emotional attachments and from birth would learn to control their feelings

    Yes but that systemed was flawed totally and utterly flawed. Anakin only magnified the flaws of the Jedi system.
    The point that is highlighted by the Jedi's failure as I said earlier is their unwillingness to accept their emotions, shutting them out and acting as if they don't exist. Which is the wrong way to deal with it. What first Anakin, then Luke showed was that it is possible to have emotions & feelings and still be a Jedi.
    Their system wasn't working on many fronts, they were declining in number, instead of fear, anger and hate, the Jedi had that replaced with arrogance, overconfidence and pride. And they have even become detached from the people they serve. Being servants to a morally corrupt government, living in isolation and beleiving they are higher beings than the general populace.

    But Anakin was the only special case in the Order, and the Council was right to forbid his training. But then they went ahead and let it happen anyways and we all know how that turned out

    If they had followed the rules and not allowed Anakin's training as they initially did the Jedi Purge likely wouldn't have happened


    Again you're blaming everything on Anakin's shoulder's for god sake don't be so vain. Goodness me.
    The Jedi purge would have happened regardless of Anakin. Why you can't see that is beyond me. The Jedi Order are in decline, they are starting to lose the balance of the Force. The Sith have arisen again, and crucially at a time when the Republic and the Jedi are lost beyond reprieve.
    Anakin is not the sole reason for the Jedi Purge, he isn't even a damned reason. The fact is the Jedi will be found incompetent, useless and not needed by the Republic anymore. Not because an ex-Jedi had a huge grudge.
    Even without Anakin's help, Palpatine would have still used his huge army of Stormtroopers to wipe the Jedi out and before that get the clearance to do so.

    The fact is had they followed the rules they would still be dead. Had they changed the rules and been more flexible instead of being so rigid they may well have stood a chance, but even then you still have to flush out the arrogance that had crept into the Order.
    Maybe the Jedi Purge was necessary, get rid of an Order of corrupted, arrogant misguided Jedi and set it up to replace them with a more wizened Order which understand the value of being human as well as being a Jedi.
  21. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    JKBurtola - *Sighs* No, I didn't say that Anakin was beyond hope because he loved a person deeply. I said he was beyond hope because he had no respect for rules and was concerned more about his personal life than his commitment to a Jedi. Of course, his nine years as a slave doesn't helps the matters much because he already has a lot of negative emotions in him by that time and it's hard to let them go when they aren't trained out of you in that young age. (It's hard to let them go even if they're "trained out" of you at young age, but it's not difficult.)

    *sigh* back at you [face_plain]
    It doesn't help matters that the Jedi didn't nurture him and help to respect rules and the Order of which he served. And the point is to not train negative emotions out of someone, but to get them to accept those emotions and control them! Isn't that what the Star Wars saga is telling us? That we should have our emotions, accept them and be able to deal with them. Not hide them away as if they didn't exist.

    The Jedi, IMHO, shouldn't change their system. Their way of bringing in people is meant to maximize effeciency, and that's always what the Jedi should be concerned about. If they start thinking about special cases like Anakin and keep adapting to each and every single person - which is almost if not quite impossible - then there's only disorder. You need a base rule, you need a cut-off line, and you need to standardize the process by which you do things for them to be effective - because of the size of the Order and the Order's importance in the galactic scheme of things.

    Ah efficency, effectiveness. We're not talking business! We're talking about an Order which is supposed to serve the populace of the galaxy and provide peace and justice to every world in the galaxy.
    The Jedi shouldnt be concerned with maximising their efficency what kind of morally corrupt rubbish is that?
    The Jedi should be concerned with training Jedi Knights, whether they are from birth, a 9 year old or like Luke, a 19 year old. And being a flexible Order which can deal with anything, being warm, acceptable and non-judgemental.
    Rules and regulations get in the way, hasn't the downfall of the Republic shown that so far? That beaucracy gets in the way and ultimately is the downfall of any Order or government?
    Yes of course you need the Jedi Code, a road map to give you a guiding light. But that doesn't mean you have to follow the road map literally, you can take shortcuts or follow a different route. You can't stay rigid forever, otherwise things go downhill and into ruin.
    I'm sorry but I think you're not looking at the saga in quite the way I am. And you're not really learning from the Jedi's downfall and resurrection either.

    If Anakin hadn't been trained, things may have been drastically different

    I have to disagree and say that had Anakin not been trained, the Empire would still be ruling the galaxy for a long time and there'd be no Anakin Skywalker or Luke Skywalker to end the suffering of the galaxy's populace.
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