Clone Wars Jedi Legal: fair shake, or kangaroo court?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Darth_Pevra, Jul 29, 2013.

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  1. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Split-off from a PT-Mace Windu thread, by request. ~Sx3

    ***

    How did they follow procedure? They barely even questioned her properly to get the details on the case (as it was obviously linked to the previous terrorist attack on the temple), let alone a motive. Sloppy, very sloppy work.
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Jul 29, 2013
  2. FortunateFool Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2013
    SLJ plays SLJ in every one of his movies. Just like Will Smith plays Will Smith.
  3. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Personally I thought SLJ as Ray Arnold from Jurassic Park didn't seem like most of the other characters he's played.

    It's likely that there are other cases where he isn't typecast.
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    It wasn't their job to question her properly to get details on the case; that's what a trial is for, and they aren't a judge and jury. Their job is to run their Order, not enforce Republic law. And in order to be tried under Republic law, she had to be expelled from the Order. That was procedure, and that's what they followed.
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  5. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    The questioning shown on screen was still a joke. Unlike good cops they were already certain of her guilt, despite lack of motive and an insufficient explanation of the terrorist attack (you know, the one Anakin and Ahsoka were sent to investigate). There were a lot of open questions and the Jedi council ignored them. Even worse, they had Anakin, an associate of Ahsoka, capture her. Gross incompetence that is!

    With what little information they had expelling a Jedi from the order seems like a severe mistake, and it is even more damnable because the supposed culprit is a teenager.
  6. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Why did this turn into a TCW discussion?
    Last edited by GGrievous, Jul 29, 2013
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if the questioning was a joke. They could have asked Ahsoka if she had Lucky Charms or CocoPuffs for breakfast and then turned her over to the Republic for a trial. It was the court's job to ask the questions and determine her guilt or innocence, not the Council's.

    I'm not sure why a Jedi can't be put on trial without being expelled, but regardless, that was the procedure and that's what they followed. The Republic demanded that she be put on trial. Had the Jedi refused to hand her over, the message they would have sent would be that they were covering up something or that they thought their members were somehow above the justice system to which everyone else in the Republic was subject.

    I don't think they ever believed she was guilty but as the Jedi Council is not a trial court, that wasn't for them to decide.

    @GGrievous , this came up due to the sentiment (not from Pevra, it was expressed elsewhere) that Mace Windu sucks because he was "mean" to Ahsoka.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jul 29, 2013
  8. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    That claim still doesn't make sense.
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    No, it's not the courts job to collect the evidence. That is job of the police, and the Jedi are sort of a galactic police force (or at least close enough to it). They themselves also told Tarkin that they first wanted to take care of the thing in the order, as Ahsoka was under their jurisdiction.

    Why would they first keep her in the temple and then only try to get a confession out of her, instead of properly answering all the open questions? The way they acted they could have just handed her over to Tarkin instantly as they obviously didn't care one bit about her wellbeing. Except for Anakin, nobody even attempted to look deeper into the case.

    Therefore, what you say is factually wrong. It is the job of the order to look into cases like this, especially when it concerns their own.
  10. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Wrong place to discuss this imo. ;)
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm going by the way our judicial system works here, and police here arrest someone whom they suspect of committing a crime, then turn the person over to the courts. The arresting officer is usually then questioned by the attorneys as to why he or she made the arrest.

    And "not kissing her ass or thinking she was above the law" does not equal "not caring about her well being." The Jedi had spent three seasons behaving as if Ahsoka were too important for anyone else's piddly rules and procedures. See: the Citadel arc, just as one example. It was a relief that they didn't behave that way this time, especially as Ahsoka did not behave like an innocent person. Yes, Anakin tried to help her, and she ran.

    And whether they care about her or not, isn't relevant. The Jedi know better than to put personal feelings before following procedure.

    Her behavior at the end of that arc showed that she cared about no one but herself, including Anakin, who stood beside her the entire time. But I guess it's OK for her to be self-centered but not OK for Jedi to actually not believe that the galaxy doesn't revolve around her.

    Since we're talking about Mace here--I expected him to at least say, "Next time try not running, or choking clone troopers." I thought he was super-congenial there, given that he considered that her trial and was ready to knight her.

    But she ran off to find the "not mean" people or something.
  12. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    In what universe does this happen when there is a murder case? A cop wouldn't turn a suspect over to court when there is reasonable doubt about the nature of the crime, the motive and whether there were other persons involved or not. Because you know what would happen? The suspect would go free because of "insufficient evidence" or (even worse) is wrongfully put into prison.

    Besides, it is not only duty before the law, it is also a moral obligation to properly investigate a crime. If I am convicted for a crime I didn't commit I would sure hope the cops do their job.

    Just because you don't like her doesn't mean she doesn't deserve a competent investigation and a fair trial. Only in a banana court like that shown in TCW would she be convicted like that. Whether or not her ass was kissed before this is absolutely irrelevant.

    Why would I care what you think about Ahsokas character? I thought we were discussing whether the Jedi order (involving Windu) acted correctly or not. What was shown on screen was them acting incompetently and dangerously negligent.

    You also seem to think she should be executed - for a crime she didn't commit.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 29, 2013
  13. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    @anakinfansince1983 and @Darth_Pevra
    I can split your 'legal-debate' off, into a new topic and move it to the TV Forum if both of you would like to continue.:)
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Jul 29, 2013
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  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
  15. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    temp lock

    reopened

    (thread title is a wip):p
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Jul 29, 2013
  16. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    Sheesh!

    If I'm ever charged with a crime I didn't commit, I sure hope anakinfansince1983 isn't on the jury.
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    @SithStarSlayer , you edited the thread title wrong. Apparently you were supposed to call it "anakinfansince1983 is a mean, horrible, awful person--just like Mace Windu." [face_laugh]

    Before any of us continue this absurd debate, let's make sure we aren't wasting our time here.

    There is no way in hell that I'm going to be convinced that the Jedi were mean to Ahsoka or that Ahsoka was right to have a tantrum and stomp out. If you're here to sway me to that point of view, I would suggest that you do something more productive with your day. Or don't, because it is your day to waste if you so choose.

    If you believe there is some form of consensus to be had here, then by all means keep reading.

    Me liking her has nothing to do with this. The Jedi were supposed to know that the Republic was running a banana court--how exactly?

    That's not what I saw. Keep trying to convince me that your viewpoint on the scene is the only correct one though.

    LOL wut? I never said that, in fact, I just said the exact opposite in the Lit forum.

    Nice try though. ;)
  18. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Don't temp me...[face_mischief]


    :p
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  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Now, because you have no more arguments left, you call the debate absurd. Classy move.

    Why then keep her in the temple again? They sure as hell didn't achieve anything by that.

    We saw the interrogation by the Jedi council and it was a joke. Ahsoka had one minute to defend herself before she was declared guilty and was shipped to Tarkin. Neither did they properly question how she could be responsible for the terrorist attack on the temple, nor if she had any help, nor what her motive to attack the temple could be. Anakin vouched for her character and they ignored him.
  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    LMAO. So this thread is about me. [face_rofl]

    If you think your attempts to make this personal and restating your point that the Jedi Council were "mean" because they didn't shield Ahsoka from the legal process is actually convincing me of anything, yeah, it's absurd.

    What are we accomplishing here exactly? I asked what common ground you hoped to reach, you ignored me.

    Um, OK. And where in that argument did I state "Ahsoka should have been executed in The Wrong Jedi"?

    You think it was up to the Jedi Council to determine her innocence, I don't, as they aren't a trial court.

    End of this phase of the argument because I don't think either of us are changing our minds.
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Why would I want to find common ground? It is nice when it happens but definitely not the only outcome of a good discussion.

    I never stated they should shield Ahsoka from the legal process. I said they should have done their frigging job.

    No, the duties of the police are complex, but one is "investigating crimes and finding evidence for guilt or innocence". Without the groundwork of the police, without proper evidence, a prosecutor can't bring a case to court. In this case, there was not enough evidence there to convict Ahsoka. As I explained before, the cops (Jedi) didn't even remotely solve the case.
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Well as I said--I'm not changing my mind on that. Refusing to turn her over to Tarkin would only appear that they were protecting her from the process that every other citizen of the Republic is subject to, and they had no way of knowing at that point that Tarkin and Palpatine were out to exterminate the Jedi. I'd feel more like the Jedi were out to get Ahsoka and should have hidden her instead, if they had had a Council session in which they all watched the OT.

    They did their job. Their stated mission was to serve the Republic, not themselves.
  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Huh? They did refuse to turn her over to Tarkin initially. But then they wasted time instead of properly investigating the crime (what they should have done, as servants of the republic, we're also talking about a terrorist attack here). What would've happened if Ahsoka did get executed because the Jedi failed to fulfil their duty? Not only would an innocent be killed, the real culprit would still be out there to strike again and destroy even more innocent lives. And those lives would be all on their heads and on Tarkins (but he doesn't really care).
  24. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
  25. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    anakinfan claimed the Jedi council followed procedure in "the wrong Jedi" and I disagreed.
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