Clone Wars Jedi Legal: fair shake, or kangaroo court?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Darth_Pevra, Jul 29, 2013.

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  1. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Do not mention that travesty of a film on this board!
  2. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    I deep blue sea you think he's going to be a typical SLJ badass mofo character, and indeed he gives a rousing, bombastic speech in the tradition of SLJ speeches...

    ...and then a shark jumps out of the water and eats him. Doh!
    Last edited by Darth Valkyrus, Aug 4, 2013
  3. Darth_Xeres Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2010
    star 1
    I feel like I'm going in circles, but here it goes again. I'm not arguing that the Order had a duty to Ahsoka Tano as a sentient being who as such was due consideration/care by the other sentient beings on the Jedi Council under some galactic equivalent of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I'm arguing that the Order had duties to Padawan Ahsoka Tano as a legal member of their Order. They had a legal duty to provide her with a fair Jedi trial, and a moral duty to, if not publicly support her (though IMO they should have done that anyway), then at least not expel/repudiate her until the outcome of the Republic trial. They failed in both instances, thus showing themselves to be moral cowards more interested in the Order's public image than their duty to one of their own.

    The Jedi Council focusing on the "greater good" at the expense of other considerations, among them their duty to Ahsoka, is precisely part of what led to the Order's inability to prevent the rise of the dark side, its growing unpopularity, its manipulation by Sidious, and ultimately its destruction. Yes, I am viewing and judging the Jedi's conduct according to my personal moral code. Because as far as I'm concerned, individuals and institutions that fail to uphold their own rules and live by the ideals they claim to espouse are at best hypocrites unworthy of service/support, and at worst corrupt and evil entities that deserve destruction. With its treatment of Ahsoka, the Order might not have fallen as low as the latter, but it certainly showed itself to be among the former.
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  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    And I am arguing that they had no moral duty to support her because that is not the Jedi way--that's not to say that individual Jedi never provide emotional support; several of them did for Ahsoka here. But as an institution, that is not in their job description.

    But since you used "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil" as an argument, we've definitely circled back around to where this argument began in the first place, which was that "Mace Windu is a bad man because he didn't protect Ahsoka from Tarkin." I don't agree.
  5. Darth_Xeres Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2010
    star 1
    Then what about their legal duty to give Ahsoka, a member of their order, a fair internal trial?

    I said that the Jedi Council were legally and morally wrong to act as they did, and that their actions in this matter were indicative of moral cowardice, not of outright evil. Evil would have been wanting Ahsoka to come to harm/be executed as a result of the Republic trial. But yes, Mace Windu and the rest of the Jedi Council showed themselves to be bad people, or at least hypocrites who failed to perform their objective legal duty and (arguably) subjective moral duty toward a member of their Order.
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The Jedi aren't a court, and while any of you are free to pull something from Wook to correct me--to my knowledge they weren't legally obligated to give her any sort of internal trial, especially since non-Jedi were involved in the crime.

    And you are free to believe that the Council were "bad people" for following the procedures of their Order as opposed to your personal moral code; I disagree, nothing more to discuss really.
  7. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    But the Jedi are cops and cops have the duty to properly investigate in a murder case. You can't have the permission to arrest whoever you want based on flimsy evidence (the chancellor) without being bound to some duties as well.

    The Jedi also state themselves that they are sworn to protect the republic. How exactly does that fit with "not properly investigating terrorism and murder"?
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Aug 4, 2013
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The Jedi aren't cops. Their role is actually negotiators and keepers of the peace.

    We've seen them doing some investigative work in the movies on the Chancellor's orders, but as has already been discussed in this thread, there was evidence against Ahsoka and whether they investigated "hard enough" is debatable. It wasn't their job to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that she was guilty before giving her to Tarkin for a trial.
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Obi-Wan was acting like a cop in the entirety of AOTC and later Mace Windu wants to arrest the chancellor. Only cops have the power to arrest others in real life. They are also the ones who lead official investigations when some crime happened (the same as, you guessed it, the Jedi).

    I already mentioned how they had no explanation whatsoever for the terrorist attack and you still claim they've done their job! Do I really need to explain why investigating the reasons behind a terrorist attack on the temple might be important for the Republic? The evidence makes it 100% certain that if Ahsoka is the culprit she hasn't acted alone but was obviously allied to someone else. But did the Jedi council try to find out who her ally was? Nooooo!
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  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    They lead investigations on the direction or endorsement of the Chancellor and the Senate, with ROTS being the obvious exception because they were totally out of their traditional role there.

    The command of the Chancellor this time was to allow Ahsoka to undergo a Republic trial.

    But sure, the Jedi were terrible for obeying.
  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    The police is usually not beholden to the presidents orders (when it is usually something is very, very wrong). The independence of the three branches is important in every system.
  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    But that isn't how the Jedi have functioned.
  13. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Really? The Jedi have attempted to arrest the chancellor in ROTS.
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    And ROTS was a gross exception to how they normally function.

    They were also preparing to have to take over the Republic for awhile in ROTS. Definitely not something they did as a matter of course.
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Windu's choice of words is still telling. If you don't have the official power to arrest someone, then you can only kidnap him.
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Are you arguing that what the Jedi took it upon themselves to do in ROTS was normal behavior for them? I'm not seeing it at all, and I need a lot more proof than nit-picking over Mace's choice of words.

    Which, BTW, Windu used when he had a light saber pointed at Palpatine's throat. Also not normal for the Jedi, although under the circumstances he certainly wasn't wrong.
  17. Darth_Xeres Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2010
    star 1
    If they weren't obligated to give Ahsoka any sort of internal trial, then why did they even bother subjecting her to the obviously unfair, biased and meant-to-justify-an-already-agreed-upon-verdict trial that they did? It would have been much simpler for them to just declare that Ahsoka had been expelled from the Order, without bothering to explain/justify themselves. The logical answer, for me at least, is that they had no choice but to give her a trial in order to legally justify expelling her - hence the repellent farce of a trial they forced her to go through.
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  18. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    Which is not true. Nothing of what you mention points to Ashoka being innocent. All it proves was that Ashoka has been in a fight with another lightsaber-wielder; Ashoka had last been seen in the company of Ventress and Ashoka would have confirmed that she and Ventress fought, though she would be unable to explain the reason for Ventress turning against her.

    So all that scene in the warehouse confirmed was that Ventress for some unknown reason turned against her “partner in crime”, which is not unheard of.

    Now, Ashoka could have helped herself a lot by simply telling that it was information passed on by Barriss that led her to the warehouse. Instead she decided to protect her so-called friend even though it was clear that Barriss wasn’t going to help her even when she faced execution. That way, Anakin wouldn't have been forced to spend valuable time hunting down Ventress and the trial would have been over before it even began.
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  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I absolutely do not believe that they were mandated to act as judge and jury and do a full-court trial. They probably had a procedure in place to meet with her as a group and let her know what their decision was, and they asked her questions because they were demonstrating what their thought process had been. I'm sure they had already agreed upon a decision to expel her and turn her over to the Republic but I'm not sure what your point is there. I don't think that decision was the wrong one, given the fact that they had no idea that Tarkin and Palpatine were running a kangaroo court.

    If you're thinking that they "forced her to go through a repentant farce of a trial" because they were thinking that "we hate Ahsoka and want her out of the Order and here's our opportunity," I don't know what version of TCW you've watched, as they had never indicated any sort of negative feeling towards Ahsoka in the past.
  20. Darth_Xeres Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2010
    star 1
    Ah, I think I see where we diverge again. To you, what the Jedi Council did was simply performing the procedure announcing and explaining their decision to expel Ahsoka from the Order. To me, it was a blatantly biased trial where, in a perversion of justice and fairness, only the evidence against Ahsoka was considered.

    I've already explained this before - I do not believe the Jedi Council subjected her to a trial because they're evil and hate Ahsoka, but because they wanted to legally justify her expulsion from the Order and so only considered the evidence against her.
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    It makes no sense whatsoever for them to have some unspoken motive for expelling her though; they had never shown any indication for wanting to be rid of her before this arc.
  22. Darth_Xeres Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2010
    star 1
    We know what their motive was, and it's been mentioned numerous times in this thread: they wanted to distance the Order from Ahsoka as much and as quickly as they could, so that there would be no public backlash against the Order for siding with/supporting one of their own when she's accused of a number of very serious crimes. The Jedi Council may not have wanted to expel her, but they did it anyway, in the name of PR and expediency.
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  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    OK. Given that she was not behaving like an innocent person, had quite a bit of evidence against her, and the Jedi Order was already getting public backlash and being made a scapegoat for the war by some, I'm not seeing the problem. They likely assumed, as they had no reason not to do so, that the Republic trial would find her innocent if she indeed were--at which point her image and theirs would be restored and they could readmit her into the Order.

    I work for the public school system. If I were accused of criminal behavior, I would be suspended pending an outside investigation and reinstated once found innocent. My boss would not be expected to say, "I think she's innocent, therefore I will not suspend her and allow you to investigate", even if the evidence were in my favor. The public would go ape**** and rightfully so.
  24. Darth_Xeres Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2010
    star 1
    They also completely failed to consider the evidence that cast her guilt into doubt. That's not the mark of a fair trial or procedure.

    If they assumed that the Republic trial would find Ahsoka innocent, then they were IMO naive. The growing schism between the Jedi and the Supreme Chancellor, along with Tarkin's already-established dislike of Jedi and their ways, should have made them realize that the Republic would do its best to prove her guilty and give her the harshest sentence possible.

    You say you'd get suspended, which is exactly what I previously proposed the Council should have done with Ahsoka's membership. But instead, they went much farther and outright expelled her from the Order. To use your analogy, instead of being suspended pending the investigation's result, your boss would outright fire you, with no assurances whatsoever that you'd recover your job even if you were found innocent.
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  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Ahsoka was given her job back, and as far as your assessment of what they "should have known" about the Republic trial--the idea that the PT Jedi were terrible, awful people because they don't have the same foreknowledge that the audience has, is always fun, but not a very convincing argument.

    As I mentioned earlier, I'd buy it if Mace Windu had been made to watch the OT before making any decisions. As it is, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jedi should have the audience's knowledge of Tarkin's motivations. A schism between the Jedi and the Chancellor, which was nowhere near what it was in ROTS, and Tarkin's personal feelings for the Jedi are hardly an excuse for the Jedi not to follow procedure.

    Can you imagine the Holonet getting wind of that one? "Jedi Padawan Ahsoka Tano found attacking several clone troopers and with links to the Temple bomber who killed civilians. Jedi Council refuses to hand her over to the Republic for trial because Tarkin once called the Jedi nincompoops."
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