Full Series Jedi Legal: fair shake, or kangaroo court?

There's a shocker. The Jedi weren't innocent victims when they chose to expel Ahsoka, they were perpetrators.

Answering a question with a question, I see. Perhaps because you lack a good answer to mine? But to answer yours, if an individual is willing to sacrifice his/her own life, or for others to sacrifice his/her life, in the name of the greater good, then of course the individual and others can't complain if/when it happens. But I've said before, even if the individual is willing, the sacrifice of a person's life should only be a last recourse. In this case, the Order could and should have adopted a less extreme stance regarding Ahsoka, as well as giving her a real trial.

Right. "After a farce of a trial, I'm being thrown out of the Order like garbage for crimes I didn't commit and sacrificed for the greater good of public relations. But I'll accept it all with a big smile even though the Jedi-hating prosecutor will likely press for my execution, because Jedi are totally into self-sacrifice." You ask why she shouldn't be willing to sacrifice herself for the Order? Because she's innocent of the crimes she's accused of, because her condemnation might mean that the real perpetrator will remain free, because the Order failed its legal duty to give her a fair trial, because the Order blatantly chose to cut all ties to her to protect its public image.

 

Just as I said to anakinfansince1983, this is not a parallel situation. You're talking about something with a clear hierarchy and clear power dynamics. That is not the case with the Jedi Council, the Senate, and the Republic. They weren't deciding whether to keep Ahsoka or abandon the Republic, they had a choice as to how to handle her situation. Your example is not the same.

I realize this wasn't directed at me, but you're the only one trying to equate the Jedi treating Ahsoka unjustly and against the higher ideals of the Order with the Jedi deserving eradication, and no one including Darth_Xeres said such a thing. If you're not going to read something because it's too long, don't respond to it - responding in a way that makes no sense because you're not reading the other side's points isn't accomplishing anything. If I wanted to take the tack you're taking in this discussion, I could just accuse you of having the opinion you have because you dislike Ahsoka, not actually read your posts thoroughly, and keep accusing you of that...but I think it's pretty obvious that those kinds of comments don't contribute anything worthwhile to the conversation.

 

I agree we should end this argument. By now we're just repeating ourselves and it's obvious we won't budge from our respective positions.

 

Anyone who actually goes into an Internet debate expecting to change the other person's mind is in for a lifetime of disappointment.

The great thing about debate is that it gives us an opportunity to explore all the different angles and ideas associated with any one concept. But yes, we seem to have reached the point where we're starting to go round in circles - happy debating with you!

 

Always happy to agree to disagree when it reaches that point, but if you think the power hierarchy is as cut-and-dry with the Jedi Council and the Republic as it is with a person in a police force, I'd really and honestly like to know how you reached that conclusion.

To me it's about the decision the Jedi Council make considering their predicament. It could have been Barriss who was framed and Ahsoka who was guilty for all I'd care. Having to choose the least bad among all bad options doesn't absolve them from picking one of the worst options. Of course, Palpatine knew how to manipulate the situation in such a way that they made the choice they did, but it was still a choice and they still had better options. It worked because he knew they'd become too much about the political intrigue.

 

Honestly, I wish they would have been forward with her and given Anakin some more time via stalling like say having their own trial and making Tarquin present some actual evidence.

 

I wasn't making a cut-and-dry comparison between the Jedi and RL police forces. I was using the volunteer reserves IRL as an example of a form of voluntary service that can simultaneously be deemed mandatory once an oath/pledge/agreement has been made to that effect.

 

I know I'm coming in late to a bloody beaten horse but... the Jedi were pretty much in a damned if you do damned if you don't type situation. Had they done an internal investigation I'm sure peoples distrust would have gotten the better of them. Having one of there's convicted of terrorism on a public court is only slightly better. People are still gonna look at that and say; "The hell has happened to the Jedi? Our protectors first drag out this war that costs us our hot water and now they are blowing themselves up? We should blast them into the nearest star."

I do believe the Jedi demonstrating fear which goes against their code of the growing public distrust of them picked the path of least resistance to try and win some PR. Likely not realizing it still didn't work in their favor. They couldn't have known it would get much worse when the only one who actively searched for the truth albiet with Yoda's blessing brought back the real terrorist Barriss. The Jedi were going to get screwed by any outcome one way or the other. The variable was how hard. I think it was harder.

As for Ahsoka, the Jedi did try to make up for it by moving to knight Ahsoka as if the whole trial was something planed. Lets put ourselves in Ahsoka's boots for a moment. Imagine that you are being accused of a crime you know you didn't commit. Yet your own family isn't standing behind you, seems to agree that your are guilty, and hands you over the legal system where is not even they believe you its hard to imagine this will end well. In Ahsoka's case more than likely would have ended in death. And yes this is a teenager who scoffs in confusion at the idea nobody could believe her or that she could even be accused. That hurts. She decided to run away. Ahsoka wasn't the brightest glowstick at the rave during the Fugitive Arc, that remained consistent and her actions were understandable since no body point out how stupid she was to run away and make herself more guilty.

 

Seerow you summed it up for me. Also saying Ahsoka was not the 'brightest glowstick at the rave' is my favourite remark of the week!

 

Its true. It amuses me all the claims of Ahsoka being an immortal goddess or Filoni's perfect pet when Ahsoka did probably the single dumbest thing on the show when she used the force to lift that key card and get out of jail in the Fugitive arc. Then when she saw the lightsaber plants hell if she didn't keep running. I still can't believe she thought Anakin would just break her out of jail like that. Honestly I think Gascon and WAC even would have known better.

 

But if the power hierarchy/structure isn't comparable, which it isn't, the comparison has no meaning in my opinion.

 

Yea, she panicked. And I liked it because it showed her vulnerability.

 

Yeah, she was panicking by the time that Anakin confronted her in that pipe thing and asked her to stop running but Ahsoka looked pretty smug to me when she took the keycard. Ahsoka is used to Anakin getting her out of thing and one thing didn't change was her disbelief at the idea anyone could think Ahsoka was behind first a cold murder. With any sense when the keycard appeared she would have waited for a signal from Anakin if she thought it was him.

 

I guess this discussion kind of fits this thread.

anakinfansince1983:

 

Edit: That was not necessary.

 

I said nothing about your motives, I only made points about what happened on the show and my opinion about it. (Unless you mean my saying I have a hard time believing you take that point seriously, but that's far from psychoanalysis.)

Ahsoka has gone through traumatic experiences with a few characters over the course the series, but it's usually with Anakin, and except for the younglings arc (where she was left to be the leader and didn't have the luxury of playing the role of the learner) it's basically always been with adults. Her experiences in Weapons Factory and Brain Invaders - which even by the high standard of Ahsoka's traumatic experiences in TCW are still pretty traumatic - are the only time in the series I can recall it happening with another young Padawan, and that makes all the difference in the world in terms of the bond you develop with another person. They're just introduced in Weapons Factory but are tighter by the end of it, stick together for the little you see them in Legacy of Terror so you know they're together, and then in Brain Invaders they talk about some pretty personal stuff in terms of what they think about what their masters are trying to teach them which shows they've gotten a lot closer. Ahsoka and Barriss developing a friendship is part of the story of the S2 Geonosis arc. If you think that simply doesn't count because it's three seasons later and they haven't had any team-up episodes in between I'm fine with just agreeing to disagree because it would be very, very hard to convince me of that.

 

I guess one of the main differences in our views is that to me it was fully developed in S2 and only needed to be sustained (which does not need screen time) while it seems you feel their friendship still needed more development in order to be that epic of a betrayal. But yeah, it seems we've both made our best cases and if so I have no problem agreeing to disagree.

 

I didn't mention this in the debate because it had no relevancy, but in my Clone Wars Trilogy I'm using Geonosis in the first film and ending the third film with the the S5 finale arc, so I think it will all fit pretty smoothly in that.

 

Say, what if the jury had actually found Ahsoka innocent, or there was a hung jury? It would be a shock outcome, since certain parties did their level best to stack up evidence making her look guilty as sin, but there was enough holes in the proseuction case and enough stuff that didn't add up for a whole load of doubt to exist. The counterpoints against Tarkin's evidence were valid enough.

Everybody assumes Ahsoka was going to be convicted. But we don't know for sure, because Palpatine never got to read the verdict out before Anakin stormed in. The actual verdict of the jury remains a mystery.

 

^I'd say it really leans toward them finding her guilty. What with all the evidence pointing to her, the whole anti-Jedi feeling, Palpatine being in charge, Ahsoka having Padme as a defense attorney.. well, need I go on?