Jedi Love: The Official View

i am a firm believer in we shape our reality like we want it, not like it really is.
Yoda and council wanted to believe the force was with them. and they wanted to believe that they could control the jedi without change.

obiwan wanted to believe that he understood anakin. i mean after spending so much time with someone you would think you knew him/her. actually he did, he just chose not to believe it.

anakin wanted a father figure so much that he was willing to overlook kenobi, who was not his idea of a father so he didnt fit, to a man who he knew was evil but chose not to believe what the force was telling him. i know this because we basically saw palpatine like anakin did. and even without our knowing palpatine/ds were the same, we knew there was something wrong.

i could go on but i believe we all got the point. one of the reasons the sw universe works is we do this in our own lives.

 

Perhaps the very thing that was wrong with the advice. Yoda assumed, he didn't make sure. He had hoped Anakin would understand, even though he knew Skywalker was troubled. He just let it be, and thought Anakin could handle everything on his own. That he would make the right choice, even though he was dealing with a strong inner conflict.

 

anakin_luver wrote:

Perhaps the very thing that was wrong with the advice. Yoda assumed, he didn't make sure. He had hoped Anakin would understand, even though he knew Skywalker was troubled. He just let it be, and thought Anakin could handle everything on his own. That he would make the right choice, even though he was dealing with a strong inner conflict.

That's a problem with Yoda, he just assumes, more damagingly, he lets things go. For 800 years Yoda seemed to pretty much get his own way and it was for the most part, smooth sailing for the Jedi. Spouting his platitudes and advice, with little or no consequence or complication, for there were few, as the Jedi thrived all those years. Then along comes a troubled young man and they pretty much have no clue how to deal with him. It's not just a simple case of tell me the problem and this is how you deal with it, it's just simply, let go. For some that's fine, but not everyone. It's clear from AOTC that Yoda knows something of what Anakin got up to on Tatooine, if he doesn't know of the Tusken massacre, well he at least knows that something major had gone down as he makes a point of telling Mace (when he saunters into the room), that young Skywalker 'is in pain, terrible pain'. When Anakin got back to Coruscant, if I had been Yoda, I would have immediately gone to him to find out what was going on with him. Yoda gets put on a pedestal sometimes like he's the Jedi's spiritual guru sometimes, it's sage leader, but he dropped the ball already as far as AOTC was concerned, and then in ROTS, when Anakin comes to him about his vision, again, warning bells should have gone off, but then what happens? Yoda needed to realise that Anakin was not like them in psyche and motivation. Did it never occur to Yoda that the one cookie cutter philosophy wasn't going to work in Anakin's case? Could he not be bothered? Did he just genuinely not think it would be a problem to leave Anakin with such open ended passive advice, or did Yoda just not care enough for the issues of one troubled young Jedi knight, in a whole temple of other Jedi? I guess it comes back to the old Star Trek question, are there times when it calls for the needs of the one to outweigh the needs of the many?

 

Very well said Dark_Disciple, glad to see you here

 

Glad to be here anakin_luver , it's been a while... This is a fascinating thread and it's interesting to contemplate on the nature of Love, it's misunderstanding and misappropriation of it, perhaps by both the Jedi collectively and Anakin personally, that ultimately leads to the Jedi's almost extinction, and the collapse of the Republic.

 

Right! Love. I completely forgot that was what this entire thread was about in the first place. We seem to get off topic once in a while around here. Only once in a while

 

But after Mace dies, Sidious tells Anakin that he doesn't know how to save Padme which should've caused Anakin to realize that Sidious is playing him like a mere puppet so he should've done what the Mace Windu posse tried to do to Sidious but he didn't since he won't admit to himself that he's helping Sidious for nothing.

Even if Anakin was full of guilt, remorse, and regret over helping Sidious kill Mace, the Jedi will not believe him since they will still see it as "lies, deceit, and creating mistrust" such as how all Sith operate. When Dooku told Obi-wan about Darth Sidious controlling the Senate, neither he nor the Council believed him and when Darth Vader told Luke that he was his father, Luke didn't believe him either. The Jedi will not believe anything a Sith tells them even if they are being truthful so they will think that Anakin is a traitor and will destroy him for it.

No, he didn't because the second Anakin saw Obi-wan standing inside Padme's ship, he didn't attack him right away. Part of him still cares about Obi-wan and wants him to see things his way but as soon as Obi-wan pulled out his lightsaber, that's when Anakin came to the conclusion that his friendship with Obi-wan is over and has now declared Obi-wan his enemy.

 

For power. He followed him for power, because Palpatine was willing to give it to him.

That's just it. If Anakin was full of remorse, then he *wouldn't* be a Sith.

Both Anakin and Obi-Wan had wanted to try and convince the other to their side. That's why they talk for the first little bit. But when Anakin declares that if Obi-Wan isn't with him, then he is his enemy, then Obi-Wab realizes there is no getting through to him. Anakin realized this first when Obi-Wan appeared in the ship, then when their conversation progressed. Anakin may have wanted Obi-Wan to join, but he wasn't as desperate to get Kenobi to his side, as Obi-Wan was to get Anakin back.

 

What? Vader did not want to turn Obi-Wan. He was ordered to kill Obi-Wan, who, in Palpy's own words, was an enemy of the Republic. Anakin was so very twisted by hatred and anger at that time by what he saw to be a betrayal of his former friend and wife that any alterior motives were thrown out the air lock.

 

Anakin spends five minutes or so talking to Obi-Wan. About the "peace, security, freedom and justice" he was brought to his new Empire. He's rationalizing what he has done in order to prove to Obi-Wan that what he has done, is indeed good. Obi-Wan was sent to kill Anakin as well, but it's not like he launches himself on him. Nor do either of them clearly say "join me," but the conversation they have before is an opportunity for either of them to back down, and since neuther of them does, their fight begins.

 

They do speak before the duel, but it really amounts to nothing as both men are fixed in their ways. There's no real exchange going on, neither of them are taking in really what the other is saying in so far as Vader mouths off his thinking and Obi-Wan does the same, it is an idealogical impasse that results in Obi-Wan saying, 'I will do what I must'. But has he really tried to find out why Anakin is where he is? Why he's done what he's done? Anakin hasn't justified anything at that point, he's just displayed very angry responses to rejection by both Padme and Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan has no idea about the visions, Vader's initiation, his perceived notion that carrying out all the killing is going to make him stronger in the dark side and help him get what he wants, Padme's safety, etc. None of that is discussed, except the lofty notion of ending the war and forging a new Empire. It's still an emotional confrontation because Anakin is taking it so personally, but nothing personal really gets discussed between the two of them before they begin the duel. The most personal it got was just after Vader force chokes Padme and screams at Obi-Wan 'you turned her against me'.

What I do find interesting in their talk as they start to circle one another, is Vader's "I do not fear the dark side as you do", that's defiance and arrogance right there and an in your face to Obi-Wan. Vader/Anakin really thinks at this point that this alone makes him better than Obi-Wan at this point, and that's what the real deal is here, being better, it's what Anakin has always really been consumed with. He's dabbling in something Obi-Wan is afraid of (with good reason) while Anakin has dived right in and he's supremely confident that he will win out in the fight too. He's forgotten the friendship now, put it aside, and now it's just another contest and removal of an obstacle to his goals. He's pretty lost at this point, consumed by the dark side, but not in a controlled way, like Sids. Anakin/Vader's new status, his Sithdom is out of control.

 

No, Anakin/Vader most definitely doesn't go into every crucial detail, but he does say that all his actions have brought upon peace, justice, etc. He's telling Obi-Wan that bit of information, to prove that what he has done is indeed right, and that the path he followed is right as well. Like I said, they don't come right out and say "join me," but Obi-Wan is giving Anakin/Vader an opportunity, and Anakin/Vader in return, is telling Obi-Wan (indirectly) that his way is the best. And then he says, "If you're not with me, then you are my enemy," which shows that he was forcing Obi-Wan to make an ultimate choice, which means Anakin/Vader was not yet completely convinced of where Obi-Wan's loyalties lied.

 

anakin_luver wrote:

No, Anakin/Vader most definitely doesn't go into every crucial detail, but he does say that all his actions have brought upon peace, justice, etc. He's telling Obi-Wan that bit of information, to prove that what he has done is indeed right, and that the path he followed is right as well. Like I said, they don't come right out and say "join me," but Obi-Wan is giving Anakin/Vader an opportunity, and Anakin/Vader in return, is telling Obi-Wan (indirectly) that his way is the best. And then he says, "If you're not with me, then you are my enemy," which shows that he was forcing Obi-Wan to make an ultimate choice, which means Anakin/Vader was not yet completely convinced of where Obi-Wan's loyalties lied.

About the "I have brought peace and justice to my new empire...", I always got the impression that this was what he said to anyone that came along, officially. Sids said it to him first, and it's almost like code, for do all that other stuff, the killing etc, but we'll say your restoring peace etc, so it all sounds good and noble, but more importantly, it sounds good and noble to Anakin/Vader. He's got to live through what he's doing, despicable acts, turning on his fellow Jedi, on Obi-Wan as well. He uses that line to justify the other stuff he's doing, he's told Obi-Wan that's what he's doing, but he never says anything about the dark side giving him the power to save Padme. Of course, his actions do help to stop the war, but Sids could have done that on his own at that point anyway, the clones were in his control etc. Still not sure Vader's giving Obi-Wan a choice as to what side to take, I just think he is telling him in no uncertain terms that he will not be stopped and he should walk away. He knows Obi-Wan won't do that though, the moment Obi stood on that ramp looking down at him in his mighty man stance, Vader knew that Obi-Wan was there to kill him. It was not a negotiation, but Vader didn't even try to tell Obi-Wan the background, but then things did escalate rather quickly. Vader got it in his head that Obi and Pads were in cohutes and the rest of his imagination and paranoia ran away with him and it was rage and defiance all the way from then on.

 

But when he says, "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy" it means Obi-Wan can either join him, or he can die. Anakin detests the Order and its Jedi, therefore he despises Obi-Wan. They are all his enemies, and he wants each and everyone of them dead. I don't think Anakin would have let Obi-Wan walk away. That's why I believe he gives Obi-Wan a final choice, just as Obi-Wan does on the "high ground" scene. Anakin just made up his mind far quicker.

 

But surely Anakin/Vader knows Obi-Wan won't join EVER, surely? It's a cool line but I doubt he thought Obi would mull that over for a bit, toss up the pros and cons and then say, 'nah, not gonna'. This is what makes me grab my head in despair at the two of them, no one calmed down enough for two seconds to just really hear the other one out, and Anakin escalated things far too quickly by panicking, getting angry, choking Pads and then putting Obi-Wan in a very dicey position from then on. Obi-Wan thinks Anakin/Vader is completely out of control, he's lost his mind to a degree, he can think nothing but the fact that Anakin can and wants to kill him at that point. But then isn't that why Obi-Wan is there as well, to kill? "Destroy the Sith we must" as Yoda instructed.

And that brings me to the Jedi as well, the slaughter to be precise. When Anakin directs all his hate at the Jedi, enough hate to kill them all, might he not have thought solely of the Jedi Council specifically while he was doing it? The real anger was there surely, with the council itself, the authority that directs the life of each and every Jedi. I'm just trying to get into his head at that point, I know he was beginning to be consumed by the dark side, but, what justifications were going on in his head to wipe them all out, while he was doing the slaughtering? Or perhaps, more realistically afterwards, when he's had time to stop and think, while he's killing, I think he's on auto-pilot to a degree. He tells Pads that the Jedi have rebelled, and then there's that bit again about being for the Republic, the one that's about to be turned into an Empire.

 

i think he's psychotic at that point. i don't really get the whole 'drunk with dark side power' thing. it just seems like a metaphor to me.
i think what's happening is that this part of him has been denied to him for an eternity, for reasons of petty morality and he taps it but he has no handle on it. so, he felt powerless before (what with his ****ty life) and being controlled by the council and such and feels powerless again this time being around himself. but this time there's no one who understands it. so basically i think they were teaching him denial of it before and he's ioncorporated that to the degree that he's able to turn it against himself.

bah! too early in the morning.

 

Yet, Palpatine tells him that he doesn't have the power to save Padme but Anakin still follows him which makes him deaf, dumb, and blind. He's like Gollum chasing after the One Ring, he's too drugged up on the Dark Side to care about what he's doing or that Palps is playing him for a fool.

After what happened with Dooku? I don't think so. Dooku showed his remorse when he pleaded ignorance in his involvement with Obi-wan's capture, about Qui-Gon's death, and over Sidious controlling the Senate but Obi-wan still calls him a traitor and the Council shared his opinion. If Obi-wan and the Council felt that way about Dooku, then they will feel the same way about Anakin if they found out that he helped a Sith Lord kill Mace.

That didn't mean that Anakin stopped caring about Obi-wan....that is until Obi-wan decides to "do what he must".

 

No, I don't think Anakin thought Obi-Wan would exactly mull it over, but he was definitely try to prove himself. That what he did was not wrong. Anakin basically says, "join the Dark Side, or die." He's not campaigning, but definitely leaving an opportunity for Obi-Wan.

I agree with you. Anakin most likely didn't know every single Jedi in that Temple personally. What caused him to slaughter the lot of them was what the Jedi as a whole represented. What they had come to represent. He hated the Order, the Code and the Council, who enforced all the rules and whatnot. By killing the all of the Jedi, he was demolishing that Order, that Code and that Council.

Just like you said, he uses the whole "not betraying the Republic" theory. Sidious, after all, is the Republic at this moment, and seeing with his own eyes how the Jedi (Mace, actualy) can betray their allegiance, Anakin has even more of an excuse to save Palpatine.

Exactly. He's out of it, in a sense. It's not Anakin being flat-out stupid. It's him being consumed with what Palpatine can provide, and what they can accomplish. A new constitution, and no Jedi Order. He knows Palpatine doesn't have the answer, but at least with Palps, Anakin is doing something, going somewhere. He believes he's on his way to save Padme, and he knows Palps is his only hope.

Dooku had left the Order 10 years before. He had become a a leader of the Separatist movement. He was not coming back to the Order, that was for certain. And Yoda only confirms that Dooku is all "deceit, lies, etc" after his battle with him, when he (Yoda) saw first-h

 

This is an excellent POV in my opinion...I'd like to add if I may....Anakin was a selfless and loving man. If it weren't for the Jedi throwing themselves into the very UN-jedi like qualities of War and control and treason and spying, then Anakin would've been a hero who could've shown the jedi the BENEFITS of attachment to those you love and cherish - he only killed younglings for Padme. He said it himself...

He wants to rule the galaxy with the love of his life - how's that so wrong?

 

Yes love. Anakin and Palpatine were both selfless. they were just trying to do the right thing. so Anakin just wanted to impress his girl?. prove that he's not little Ani anymore, but a real big man. and those selfish Warring Jedi are the bad guys?. excellent observations, both of you.

 

Thanks Evil Imp...

You know everywhere I've posted my thinking that it was the Jedi's fault, not Anakin's has been met with sarcasm, nastiness, and just plain hatred. I'm glad you understand where I'm coming from.

I mean - if the jedi could love and make babies, there would've been more jedi's to detect a Sith threat.

Silly Jedi.

 

Instead of writing an essay as to why I disagree, I'll just ask you a simple question

How exactly is kiling innocent children for Padme?

 

Both Anakin and Obi-Wan had wanted to try and convince the other to their side. That's why they talk for the first little bit. But when Anakin declares that if Obi-Wan isn't with him, then he is his enemy, then Obi-Wab realizes there is no getting through to him. Anakin realized this first when Obi-Wan appeared in the ship, then when their conversation progressed. Anakin may have wanted Obi-Wan to join, but he wasn't as desperate to get Kenobi to his side, as Obi-Wan was to get Anakin back.

Actually I don't think Obi-Wan was that desperate t get Anakin back at all. I'd say that Anakin was more desperate. If not to turn Obi-Wan then at least not to fight him. Anakin wasn't exactly rational at this point while Obi-Wan was all Jedi-like and calm and all. Anakin would be much more likely to throw himself at Obi-Wan, especially considering his outburst with Padme but he DOESN'T. It would take much more will for Anakin to stay relatively calm and try to make Obi-Wan see his side then for Obi-Wan to do the same thing. So Anakin would have wanted obi-Wan on his side more then vise versa b/c he sure enough put more effort into it.

How exactly is kiling innocent children for Padme?

The problem is is that Sids had promised him power. he had promissed him power if he [Anakin] joined him [Sids]. He said that only if Anakin was strong enough in the DS could he save Padme. At that point being strong in the DS meant killing th Jedi. ALL the Jedi. I'm sure Anakin didn't think that it was right but he is desperate to save Padme. And now that he's turned and the jedi are being killed all he really has is...well...Padme. So he clings to the hope that he can save her even more. B/c if he CAN'T save her then not only does he lose his love he looses the last thing he's got.

 

How exactly is kiling innocent children for Padme?

anakin_luver has a point in asking this serious question. I would have loved to have asked Anakin at the time how he felt justified in killing other kids, to save his own. I just wanted him to acknowledge that in some way. Through the desperation and muddled thinking and 'advice' he got from Sids, I wanted desperately for someone to point this out to him. Alley, I get that he thinks he has to do it to be strong enough in the dark side to 'save Pads, but what an irony there, a wopping great big one. This,, more than anything tells you how far gone he really is, and I think when the killing spree is over at Mustafar and he has a few minutes to think, that's where the tears are coming from. Deep down he knows he's gone to a black place, but he's got his motivation, deluded though it might be from our real world point of view. In his world, visions come true and he's fixated on a threat to Pads (and by extension) his kid's life. And if Jedi need to be killed, then the younglings go the same way, not that there is a distinction in my book on differences between killing adults and younglings, but they make such a point of showing that its HIM offing them. When he's striking them down with his lightsabre, what's going through that tortured mind?

 

I don't understand. Are you saying Anakin wants Obi-Wan to join him more than Obi-Wan wants Anakin to come back because Anakin puts more effort into it? It does take him more effort to act "civilized" but that doesn't mean he wants Obi-Wan to join him more. What does Anakin say? "If you're not with me, then you are my enemy." He's simply giving Obi-Wan an opportunity. While Obi-Wan is saying how everything Anakin has done has been wrong. How he [Kenobi] is on the right side, that he stands for the Republic and democracy. That why I think it evens out. It's enough for Anakin to just simply talk to Obi-Wan, while Obi-Wan is actually trying somewhat.

Yes, but look at the distance he goes. Look at the lives he snatches away. At this point, it's his greed taking over, not his love. It's still in the back of his head to save Padme because that is his excuse, but you're right. He wants power, not to save Padme, but to be all-mighty.