Jedi=Munchkin

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by Daemon, Nov 25, 2002.

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  1. Ping Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 1998
    star 3
    Keeping Jedi from being munchkins is partly a player responsibility and partly a GM responsibility.

    The player needs to keep in character. It sounds simple, but it's not, sad to say.

    The GM must also play a part in both monitoring a player's stats and in keeping that player under control and acting in character. I haven't played WOTC rules, but someone mentioned burning a FP to dispel a DSP. You're joking, right??? If someone earned a DSP in my campaign, in order to get rid of the taint of the Dark Side, they would have to BOTH redeem themselves AND spend the FP. If they didn't bother to make amends, the DSP would stay. (And if the player insisted on spending it, well, that's just their loss, isn't it?)

    I agree with Tremaniac that Dark Side characters are for the GM to run, not the players. (Unless you've specifically decided to run a DS campaign, which personally I don't understand why you'd do that in Star Wars, because there are plenty of other systems with much more interesting darker sides to them, but that's not my call, right?) Just because the rule isn't in the WOTC rule book, I would still take over characters who'd reached a certain number of DSPs. I am the Dark Side, and all dark side characters. A GM has to have SOME perks, after all! :)

    And if I found that I had to keep warning a player that an action they were contemplating would lead to the Dark Side, eventually I would stop, and just let them earn the DSP. WEG books were clear that you were supposed to warn them, but I had one player that I was getting tired of warning. "No, breaking the guy's arm with the Force is not only impossible for your puny Force skills, but it's also WRONG." Stuff like that. I'd determined to stop warning her and let her fall to the Dark Side, but the campaign broke up and I never got the chance to take over her character. *sighs for lost opportunities*
  2. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Wow... I don't even really need to comment on this one for the munchkin debate...

    Vergere, Master of Mystery
    An Expanded Universe Character From Traitor and Destiny's Way, the Latest New Jedi Order Novels
    By Cory Herndon

    Lost decades before on the mysterious rogue planet Zonama Sekot, the Fosh Jedi Vergere has studied, served, and lived among the Yuuzhan Vong for almost half a century. Though the small, birdlike female was but a young Knight at the time of her disappearance, Vergere took every opportunity to increase her knowledge of the extragalactic conquerors and study their previously unheard-of relationship to the Force. During her time with the Yuuzhan Vong, Vergere learned to transcend the concepts of "light side" and "dark side." Studying in secret while serving her "masters" to the best of her ability, Vergere became a Master of the Force while surrounded by creatures who seemed completely disconnected from it.

    Vergere's species is nearly extinct in the known galaxy. Thanks to her unique understanding of the Force, she no longer gains Dark Side Points. (empahsis mine) By the same token, she can "switch sides" at will when using Force powers -- switching between dark and light side skills as she pleases -- but receives no dark or light bonuses or penalties to those skills. For more information on Vergere and the Fosh, see the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook and The New Jedi Order Sourcebook.

    New Force Feat: Art of the Small
    Vergere's solitary studies in the Force have given her an understanding of it that transcends the traditional Jedi dichotomy of light and dark -- to Vergere, there is only the raw, wild Force and its more controlled cousin. Vergere has even learned to focus her concentration in the Force in such a way as to make herself appear much smaller than she actually is. This technique also allows her to manipulate the very molecules of her body, altering the chemical makeup of her tears (for example) to create poisons or medicines.

    The Art of the Small feat may be used in a few ways, and some uses require more time than others. As a full-round action, the character may use the feat to reduce his or her apparent size one increment. For example, a Human character would be considered Small instead of Medium-sized. This use of Art of the Small only works on one's self, and lasts a number of rounds equal to the character's Force level. The technique can be used more than once in a 24-hour period, but each use after the first requires the user to spend a Force Point.

    The Art of the Small can also be used to alter one's own body chemistry. A character who spends a full 10 minutes in uninterrupted meditation and succeeds at a See Force check can alter his or her tears, sweat, or other bodily fluid to act as a medicine or as a poison. To administer either, the user must make a melee touch attack against the target; a miss means the chemicals are wasted. Two Fortitude saves (DC 25) are required: The first save is made on initial contact with the poison, and the second is made 10 rounds later.

    The DC for the specific chemical results are as follows:

    Chemical See Force DC to Create Fort Save DC Effect on Target
    Curative tears 40 - user's Force level none Cures diseases
    Healing tears 30 - user's Force level none Heals all wounds
    Paralysis Poison 35 - user's Force level 25 Paralyzes 2d4 hours

    Requirements: Alter, Control, Sense, See Force 12 ranks, Force level 12th. Only Vergere and characters who have studied with Vergere may take this feat. At the GM's option, other Force-sensitive members of Vergere's species (and their pupils) may have access to this feat.

    Vergere: Female Fosh Jedi Consular 8/Jedi Investigator 5/Jedi Master 6; Init +2 (+2 Dex); Defense 25 (+13 class, +2 Dex); Spd 10 m; VP/WP 89/10; Atk +17/+12/+6 melee (5d8-1, crit 19-20, lightsaber), +17/+12/+6 ranged; SQ Contacts (2 Yuuzhan Vong, names unknown), deflect (defense +3), deflect (attack -3), deflect (ex
  3. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    Thanks to God she isn't a playable character! :)

    It's a shame. SWRPG is becoming as painfully munchkined as D&D!!

    Gotta use the last resource: "From now on, just the core rulebook is official. Forget anything else unless I say you you can use it" <waves hand>

    I've suffered an Ultimate Munchkin in my game party until I, let's say, got rid of him. I've become Death, the Destroyer of Munchs. :D

  4. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    :eek: No longer gains DSPs!? That's outrageous!

    Now that they have introduced this bit of lunacy, what (other than the GM) is to stop a player from deciding that his character does not deserve a DSP for using a Dark Side power if his intention is good? The Dark Side draws people in by presenting them with a quick and easy way of obtaining their goals. It does not matter what the character's motivation for using such power is; the power itself is inherently evil and corrupting. According to the bio of Dooku in the RCRB, he had similar notion about using the Dark Side for good and joined Sidious, not because he was evil, but because he felt that it was the best way to help the Republic. However because of the nature of the Dark Side, he fell. The story of Vergere apparently shows that Dooku's mistake was not tapping the Dark Side but was instead not leaving the galaxy and exploring the Dark Side with an alien race. [face_plain]
  5. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    OK, OK, OK. I have a really big problem. What I understood from reading Traitor was that Vergere's philosophy said that the Dark Side wasn't an inherent darkness of the Force, but the darkness within you. Stover said he just tried to stop the deification of the Force that the EU was showing, by remembering us that Yoda said Luke would carry into the Dagobah cave just "what he brought with him". The "there's no Dark Side" idea doesn't mean "Wow! Let's Force Light some Stormtroopers! Hahahahaha!". (Yeah, Vergere's methods were violent and brutal, but that's not the matter of this question).

    And now, Vergere's stats blow everything up. Sigh. I don't know what to think. I just know I would never allow a character doing evil without receiving a DSP.
  6. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    God that is pathetic. Reminds me of why I'm so loathe to GM SWd20. Again, this would be a non issue if the book would clearly state dark side characters aren't allowed. But then again, considering how much they charge for SWd20 supplements, I suppose they only feel it fair to give players a new rule rape for thier money.
  7. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    OK, OK, OK. I have a really big problem. What I understood from reading Traitor was that Vergere's philosophy said that the Dark Side wasn't an inherent darkness of the Force, but the darkness within you. Stover said he just tried to stop the deification of the Force that the EU was showing, by remembering us that Yoda said Luke would carry into the Dagobah cave just "what he brought with him". The "there's no Dark Side" idea doesn't mean "Wow! Let's Force Light some Stormtroopers! Hahahahaha!". (Yeah, Vergere's methods were violent and brutal, but that's not the matter of this question).


    But that's a ridiculous notion because you're trying to change something that the CREATOR of Star Wars has said is a tangible, external Force. Clearly you have to tap into dark emotions to use the Dark Side of the Force, but it's not all within you. How could it tempt you otherwise? How could it draw on lifeforce?
  8. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    Maybe you're right, dp4m. But I think I've never heard Lucas say the Force spoke to anybody, or the Darkside forced anybody to do anything... and that's something we've seen in many EU material (the Force as a God, the Darkside as a Devil). I simply like the idea of the inner darkness. "Yeah, the Force is external, but the darkness is inner". Well, I can buy it better than "the Force suggested me you was to be called the Sword of the Jedi".

    It's just a metter of opinion. I don't think it to be ridiculous. Al contrario, amigo mío.
    It's a very Nietzschean idea, and I'm a healthy neo-Nietzschean guy. It's simply a matter of perspective and, REALLY, it isn't so important.

    Anyway, these stats are wrong for your ideas and for mine. They're BS!
  9. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    It's simply a matter of perspective and, REALLY, it isn't so important.

    But it is. I agree that the notion that the darkness is internal, not external is very much a Nietzschean idea, and that is precisely why it does not belong in Star Wars. Nietzsche taught that there was nothing that is inherently good or evil, but that all such judgements are a matter of perspective. The philosophy behind the Force shown in the movies is in direct opposition to this idea. There is a side of the Force that is evil no matter how someone approaches it or what their reasons for using it are. It is the Jedi's actions, not his motivations, that are important; if a Jedi is to remain a servant of peace and justice, he cannot use the Dark Side.
  10. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    What Fingorfin said! :)
  11. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    You're enticed to your opinions, I'm enticed to mine. ;) I know I'm the only Nietzschean-Unamunean SW fan. I feel alone... :( ;)

    Peace and love, brothers. Let's bash WotC and the munchs like healthy RPGers! :D ;)
  12. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    just wanted to give you some consolidation. I just got the power of the jedi sourcebook today, and Yoda is listed as level 20, one above our favourite fried turkey

    Yoda: Male Jedi Consular 9/Jedi Master 8/ Jedi Instructor 3

    the fact that speak sith isn't listed as one of his skills is quite worrying as its one of mary sues'
  13. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Yes -- the only three level 20 characters EVER in SWRPG were Yoda, The Emperor (revised) and Lumiya.

    Everyone else has 18 or less Jedi levels, which makes Vergere more powerful than anyone else. [face_plain]
  14. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

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    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    I also disagree with Lumiya stats. Don't get me wrong, I've always loved the character, but... level 20??? She stronger than Luke???
    Sith Lord levels???
  15. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    I also disagree with Lumiya stats. Don't get me wrong, I've always loved the character, but... level 20??? She stronger than Luke???
    Sith Lord levels???


    Well, remember -- the Sith Lord prestige class has the added benefit for those trained in the Force levels whereby a user converting to a Sith character can GAIN levels in the Sith class by TRADING (1 or 2?) levels of the Jedi class.

    So it's not terribly farfetched. Plus she'd been way more trained than Luke was at the beginning when she actually became Lumiya rather than Shira Brie.
  16. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

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    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    Hmm. As I've said before at the Lit Forum, I disagree with Lumiya having Sith Lord levels -yes, she's been self-proclaimed DLOS as many other Sith before her, but I think it steals part of the "the Sith ended when Darth Sidious died in Endor (okay, in Onderon)" idea. Nobody should be a Sith in the NJO Era. My 0'02 $.

    Yes, she's more trained -as theoretically are Kam Solusar or Tremayne.

    Sigh. Who cares? I'll stop looking for official stats.
  17. Master_Garm_Lliandro Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    Umm, i'd just like to point out that marka ragnos (i think thats how it's spealt) was also level 20. (his stats are in the DSSP)

    Also, where can i find stats (official or unnoficial) for Lumiya?
  18. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

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    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    Stats for Lumiya are in Star Wars Gamer #5.
  19. JebZingo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 1
    Folks, it's not the class that makes a PC a munchkin, it's the PLAYER. In my old groups, I knew which people would want to amp up their power levels video game style, so I disallowed them from making whatever class it was. A simple solution.

    Also, sometimes it's not even the player to blame for munchkinism, it's the SYSTEM. d20 is inherently flawed. I don't want to consult fifty tables when my character goes up a level, wherein one small change to an attribute effects everything on the sheet.

    Go with GURPS, brothers and sisters. It's inherently balanced. It's like the Linux of RPG systems; the basic rules are free, and you actually have to work HARD to break it. Characters from any genre or campaign are cross compatible with any other.

    Also, what possible role to d20 attributes have in the actual playing of a character? You roll the attributes, sure, and you get modifiers that DO affect the playing of a character. But you have to consult a TABLE to get them!

    Ugh. Give me point-based and d6 any time.
  20. Daemon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2002
    star 2
    Sure, it's the player, but when the classes are like that, then natural munchkins have become augmented munchkins, which we all know is not good...
  21. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Lumiya's NOT 20th lvl. She's more like 16th or 18th (like Luke)
  22. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
  23. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Someone posted her stats over in Lit as 20th level. I only parrot what I hear there. I don't own the issue. :)
  24. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    Those crazy Lit guys. :p
  25. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Can someone who HAS Lumiya's stats post 'em up? :)
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