Jedi=Munchkin

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by Daemon, Nov 25, 2002.

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  1. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
    Level 18. Well, I can swallow this. :p She's still a Sith, she isn't? Sigh... And about munchkins, well, the BIGGEST munchkins I've ever seen in my 13 years long gaming life were during a WEG Star Wars campaign. Draw your own conclussions...

    EDIT: I've found Lumiya stats at Kerk Korpil's SW RPG Index (index of Gamer #5). She's listed as Human Female, Scl 1/Emperor's Hand 3/SW 9/SL 5. Sigh, she's a Sith...
  2. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    Stats from Gamer 5. First edition rules (before Revised edition was done)
    Lumiya
    Human Female Scl 1/EH 3/SW 9/SL 5
    Init +3 (dex)
    Def 29 (+16 class +3dex)
    spd 10
    VP/WP 150/17
    Atk +20/15/10 melee (lightwhip 6d6+2, range 6m) +19/14/9 ranged
    SQ illicit barter, authority, resource access, sneak attack +1d6, target bonus +1, enemy bonus+3, uncanny dodge
    DR 5
    Saves: Fort: +14, Ref: +18, Will: +12
    FP: 9
    DSP: 15
    Rep: 12
    Str: 15
    Dex: 17
    Con: 17
    Int: 16
    Wis: 15
    Cha: 15
    Equipment: lightwhip(grants a +2 equipment bonus to attempts to disarm or trip opponents), sith armor, sith holocron
    Skills: astrogate +9, bluff +9, comp use +11, craft(lightwhip) +10, Diplomacy +9, Disable device +7, disguise +8, gather info +7, hide +7, intimidate +15, knowledge(alien species) +7, knowledge(sith lore) +12, knowledge(systems) +12, listen +4, move silently +7, pilot +13, spot +9, survival +11, Read/write basic, speak basic, bothan, calamarian, huttese
    Force Skills: affect mind +11, battlemind +18, enhance ability +15, Farseeing +7, fear +12, force defence +15, force grip +13, heal self +10
    Feats: alertness, exotic WP (lightwhip, lightsaber), force sensitive, frightful presence, heroic surge, quick draw, point-blank shot, weapon finesse(lightwhip), WP (blaster pistols, rifles, simple, vibro)
    Force Feats: alter, control, deflect blasters, dissipate energy, force mastery, force whirlwind, hatred, lightsaber defence, sense
    Challenge Code: G


    Enjoy. :)
  3. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Hmmmm. I think she might have been bumped up to 20th level (like Palpatine) in the revised edition.

    Anyone have the revised stats?
  4. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    Does it mention anywhere why these stats are that way? Is it necessary for this NPC to have 18 levels? Or is it because Skywalker is through the roof and the game mechanics require her to be an uber-NPC to be mentioned in the same book as him? This was my first major problem with the SW RPG. Anyone who has his name mentioned seems to be head and shoulders above PCs. God forbid they actually speak to one of the main characters, then they have to be super beings, by sheer proximity! I thought d20 would try to fix it (Solo was mearly level 8 I believe at the battle of Yavin!), but I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.
  5. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Does it mention anywhere why these stats are that way?

    Well, I think of it this way -- Luke was level 3 or so by the end of attacking the Death Star. Between his adventures in Marvel and the Empire Strikes Back and ROTJ -- it makes sense that he'd be 8th+ level after that's done. Then consider EVERYTHING he did from Marvel and Bantam and that's a LOT of XP. I have no problems with him being 18th+ levels. Nor Han or Leia, etc. Considering that Lando and such were in on some of the adventures... them too.

    I draw the line at Mara who, at the time of END of the Corellian Trilogy, was 1/3rd as powerful as Leia (using WEG) and roughly 6 years later was THREE TIMES as powerful as Leia. Not to mention that Leia was not written up as a Knight even though she was Knighted. Why the Old Republic Jedi (Odan Urr, etc.) were not higher levels -- I don't know. But most of the Council at Yoda's time were in the 13 - 16th level range.
  6. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    Skywalker I can deal with. He is the hero of the saga, and his skills and abilities will reflect it regardless of how much I bitch and moan (He gets a 6d Beast Riding for being on Hoth for a couple of months!!!!). No, what really kills me is the NPCs that are constantly presented by EU authors to combat him. It seems that no one in the entire galaxy can even have a shot at killing a jedi master unless they have 100+skill dice/+10 levels under thier belt. What ever happened to the 12 attribute dice/1st level goon actually using thier brains? The entire game is set up in such a way that any non major character is a ground pounder, and can never be seen as more. How else do you explain Luke consistantly going up in Pilot X Wing, while Wedge takes a hit (skillwise) after a mere five or so years in the timeline? I can create a 12 attribute dice no one that can kill Skywalker with ease, but if an EU author thought my plan up, the guy who killed him would make a Nogrhi Death Commando look like a gimp.
  7. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    I think that the reason for that is the authors feel that they need to create a villain that is comparable to the heroes in power in order to make the threat seem credible. I understand and agree with your argument, but it is much easier for someone to create an extremely powerful character that will fight the heroes directly than it is to create a "normal" character, and the plot that would have to go along with it, that would be able to take such a direct approach. Essentially, it comes down to the fact that the EU seems to want to tell the same kind of story every time (powerful new menace trying to take over the galaxy), rather than risk trying something new.
  8. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    Hmmmmnn. Sounds like a similiar theory behind Munchkinism! All powerful, rule galaxy, not try anything new! I personally hold Kevin J. Anderson responsible, as he seems to have the biggest hard on for Super Villian, Super Weapon mentality that is so common with alot of these writers. Plus, a bunch of these half wits credit him with being a reason for writing such pointless banter. Man, I wish someone paid me to destroy a galaxy with words!
  9. Dev_Jannz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    Personally I think that it is the player that makes the munchkin not the class. Just about any class san be munchkinized by the right player.

    Playing a class like a Jedi requires someone to actually use their imagination and think. It also requires the GM to think and make sure that the character is playing by the rules.

    I have found that the way to really play a character right you have to know it's weaknesses, as well as it's strength's and play off of both.

    Are Jedi powerful?? You bet they are and if you look at the movies and read the books it is not any different.

    Here are some things that I read in this forum that people said made Jedi munchkins:

    "They get Deflect for free now!!"
    Yes, Delfect is a class feature now but it is not free. To use it costs the character his move action in the next round. Which means that if I use it I am not moving anywhere next round. Makes me a little more vulnerable to area affect weapons.

    "They can spend a FP to get rid of a DSP!"
    Yeah they can, but when you do that it is supposed to represent that the character is repentant about what he did. As the GM , I would make the character role-play this out and at the end spend the force point.

    Basically I see a lot of complaints about things that the Jedi can do but it does not seem that the rules of the game that govern those abilities are being taken into account.

    P.S. - I would not take any character stats that WOTC puts out seriously because they do not follow the charcater creation rules. They are just using what sounds good. For example: Lumiya. She is listed as a Scl 1/EH 3/SW 9/SL 5. Well I have a character that is a Scl 3/Sct 1 and I have two more levels before I even qualify for the Emperor's Hand class.
  10. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    But while you may disagree with her stats, they still get put out. Believe me, I think that her stats sound as bogus as my sales pitch for the Brooklyn Bridge. But I don't write for EU, and I don't think WotC would ever hire me for SWd20.
    Now as for the arguement against the class, it's not all powerful, I agree on that, I've already posted a proven way to kill most Jedi up to a certain level. My arguement here is NPC power levels in the game that border on the obscene. You have to be a munchkin to be in the same scene as a main character.
  11. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 8
  12. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    Mastercraft Lightsaber

    The ability to mastercraft a lightsaber is absurd. While it does make sense for a realistic perspective that some will be of a higher quality than others, from the a game balance perspective it doesn't work. The lightsaber is already a very powerful weapon, and Jedi have enough class enhancements to them (deflection, bonus damage) that giving them a free +1,+2, or +3 to hit and damage is just excessive. There is no reason for a lightsaber to have such enhancements. In a game like D&D where there are creatures that cannot be damaged by weapons that do not have such a bonus, it makes sense, but as there is nothing like that in Star Wars, it is just another way to munchkinize the Jedi.

    Material Mastery
    The only thing that this does is allow for some interesting visuals and flavor for the character. While it does not have any real effect on game play, it still seems a bit odd. And apparently trees no longer count as organic material?
  13. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Mastercrafting Lightsabers will require AT LEAST 4500 XP per +1 Lightsaber.

    I don't consider that an unbalanced thing, per se...

    +2 == 6750 XP.
    +3 == 10125 XP.
  14. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    I am aware of the XP cost, but I have a problem with the very idea a lightsaber that gives bonuses to hit and damage rolls just because it was made better than most other lightsabers. When a Jedi builds his own, it gets a +1 attack bonus due to the warrior's familiarty with the weapon. This is understandable and works because the bonus is only applied to that character. The idea that the lightsaber has an inherent quality that makes it more effective for any one, just strikes me as wrong.
  15. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    What if the XP expended is just a way of further attuning the lightsaber to that specific force chucker? That's a lot of XP to dump into a weapon for nothing. Besides, by the time they can put that much xp to it without losing a level, what's another +3 anyway?
  16. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Uh, folks? Isn't Mastercrafting +1 to hit OR damage -- logical OR operator, not logical AND operator?

    And they have to be the same -- so a Artisan who makes his own lightsaber could have either +4 to hit or +1 to hit and +3 damage by the end of the +3 Mastercrafter.

    I think you blow this out of proportion...
  17. Arazek Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Jedi is not a munchkin class if the player remains in-game. The core Jedi has only a lightsaber and some force powers at his/her disposal.

    What's munchkin? A Force Adept with a blaster cannon or e-web, that's what. Sever Force and tell the Jedi to "deflect this" while you blast away huge amounts of energy.

    I'm a GM so I don't favor a class (I don't allow players to be Jedi, since they don't roleplay them very well), but I don't think there is any class that overly dominate others (multiclassing a Soldier and a Force Adept, taking the Elite Trooper PrC and equipping your character with all sorts of vibro-weapons and heavy weaponry can feel a bit powerful though...)
  18. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    Ok upon first serious look (had the first character made up this weekend) I can honestly say I don't think the Jedi class is broken. Severely limited funds to start, plus the fact that skill dice need to go to both skills and force powers, plus the fact that force powers are split between multiple stats means a Jedi is spread out pretty thin. The counter to this is that you can focus your force powers speficially to your strong points, but I think that's more smart gaming than munchkinism. The reality is a soldier has the ability to start off as a much better psycho killing machine. Man, I've gotta admit, my run ons are catching even my eye. Go me and bad grammer!
  19. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    After further consultation with the rulebook -- a Mastercraft WEAPON allows a +1 bonus to ONE aspect of the weapon (e.g. damage OR accuracy OR hardness OR Break DC, etc...) -- not more than one and not a different one each time...
  20. Gorin_Zachian Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, i gotta say that a Soldier/Elite Trooper with Quickdraw, Ambidexterity, Two-weapon fighting, Rapid Shot, and Multi shot using two auto-fireing weapons is more deadly than any Jedi could be.

    Even if he only has 1 base attack, thats 8 shots.
  21. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Yeah, we calculated my 11th level Soldier 8/ Elite 3 with a Light Repeater at:
    +9/+9/+9/+9/+4/-1

    With his two modified heavy blaster pistols:
    +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 (and I think that might be too low, with some of the mods).

    That's within 10 m (for Weapon Focus and Point Blank Shot), BTW.

    So, anything can be munchkin'd. I'm just that way because my party LITERALLY has no one else good at ranged combat in the party...

    Of course, that's all going to change very, very soon.
  22. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    Damn that's alot of levels! You're like the Qui Gon of killers! Now with bonuses like that, who can honestly say a Jedi has a shot at matching something that violent? In theory with improved 2 weapon fighting (and accompanying extra feats), and heroic surge, a Jedi can top out at what? Seven attacks? That's impressive, don't get me wrong, but that's also a 20th level Jedi Gaurdian. The kinda guy that makes a D&D Monk look like a two bit pansy.
  23. Gorin_Zachian Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    star 4
    Heh, and thats still 1 level below 12, when you get YET ANOTHER attack, so i'd say Jedi are nothin compared to a soldier like that.
  24. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Well, I don't think he's going to be around long enough to reach 12th level...

    ... discovering that a fellow party member was responsible for a) a 100K cred bounty, b) carbon freezing me and c) killing the girl kinda makes him not want to stick around.

    So, revenge first... then he'll take off to atone or something and I'll bring in my new character... ;)
  25. Shadowen Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 11, 1999
    star 3
    Actually, only if you get one of the Prestige Classes that allows Rapid Strike as a special ability (i.e. Jedi Weapon Master) can anyone not wielding a multi-fire or autofire weapon get more than six attacks.

    This is, of course, assuming you aren't like me and don't translate every possible applicable feat over, such as Greater Two-Weapon Fighting...
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