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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Jedi Order was consumed by the dark side

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by mihaitzateo, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Remember, she's fallen to the dark side. Ideals for fallen Jedi aren't exactly above being hypocritical. Meaning that fallen Jedi, the Dark Lords of the Sith and the Knights of the Ren are well aware that they can break ideals quite easily. They are a means to an end.

    The minute they went to war, they were consumed by the dark side because they let emotions dictate their actions. They didn't go around killing children and choking pregnant women. But they did things that were evil from a moral standpoint.

    He was still consumed by the dark side and would join the side that won. He was not the first, nor the last to do so.

    Lucas never said that the Jedi were consumed by the dark side in a quote. As noted, you're supposed to watch AOTC and ROTS and see how the Jedi are different from what they were before. Justifying things like spying on the Chancellor and removing him from office. Things that are bothersome to both Anakin and Yoda, because they are dark thoughts and ideas from the Jedi. When the first show came around, most anything that Lucas talked about was the film. He left the interviews to Filoni and Gilroy. That said, looking at the second draft of ANH, we see a different take on the light and the dark.

    In this draft, the dark side is known as the Bogan and the light as the Ashla. There is a sphere of influence that occurs when those of the dark and light confront each other. Indeed, the Bogan can affect the lives and personalities of those protected by the Ashla. Darth Vader, in this draft, tortures Luke Starkiller's brother Deak, but along the way he tries to break him with the Bogan. Later, Han is affected by the Bogan and starts to give into despair and hopelessness and Luke has to encourage him to fight against it. Han and Deak don't become evil, but they are affected by the dark side. In this way, the Jedi are being consumed by the dark side in the final canon universe. They are giving into emotions and making decisions that go against their own beliefs. Immersed in the decadence of war.
     
  2. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    What's darker than obvious darkness? Non-obvious darkness.


    "But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"

    -- Matthew, 6:23


    "Your focus determines your reality."

    -- Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn, TPM


    "Blind we are if creation of this clone army we could not see!"

    -- Jedi Master Yoda, AOTC


    "The Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision."

    -- Count Dooku, AOTC


    "I can't see a thing, my cockpit is foggy."

    -- Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, ROTS


    "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them!"

    -- Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, ANH


    "You have paid the price for your lack of vision."

    -- Emperor Palpatine, ROTJ
     
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  3. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Just a quick update. One particular scene from TFA came back into focus for me today and started me thinking. It would appear that this scene combined with this Yoda statement from "The Shroud of Darkness" points into one particular direction. Have not yet fully made up my mind what to think of it.

    I started a new thread addressing the issue, please weigh in if you like: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...leads-to-the-dark-side-of-the-force.50039343/
     
  4. IG Lancer

    IG Lancer Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2015
    Well, it would be an explanation of why they couldn't access the Force so well as they used to. They sensed their downfall, and that of the Republic, got scared, joined the war as generals of an army of slaves, killed people in droves and did all kind of shady things for the sake of pragmatism... and in doing so, they eroded their own connection with the Force.

    Their fear started long before the war actually began, and that's (and the fact that hidden Sith were pulling strings from very high levels of power, and they couldn't sense those Sith or predict what they would do) would be the reason they were already flying blind by the time the Clone Wars began. That would explain the whole "the Dark Side cloudes everything"... it came from Plagueis and Sidious and Dooku, but also from their own fear.

    I would like to know if other Light Siders who weren't involving in the war or in protecting the Republic and who tried harder to not become attached to it and to prevent themselves from feeling fear or aggression felt that the Dark Side was "clouding everything" too.
     
  5. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2013
    He's not wrong, when you think about it. In ESB, Yoda said that a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense ONLY. There was a lot of attacking going on by the Jedi when they were fighting in the Clone Wars.
     
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  6. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Good stuff as usual Cryogenic.

    Alexrd
    Just wondering if you have any comments on more recent posts in this thread? I wasn't sure if you just decided not to bother because of our disagreement in how we each personally perceive ROTS [face_peace]

    And PHIERY, I argue against you a fair lot I admit, but I was wondering to what extent you may agree with me on my posts on this thread?
     
  7. AshiusX

    AshiusX Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2016
    I think they justify that on the grounds that they were acting on the defense of the Republic. Besides I don't think we should take every aphorism characters say as literal truth to every word to a T.
    Even in the OT, Yoda tells Luke to confront Vader. And Obi Wan wants Luke to kill Vader.
     
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  8. Antpocalypse

    Antpocalypse Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2016

    I wholly agree with your statement and this might be a bit off topic, but as a kid it always bothered me that Yoda killed those Kashyyyk troopers who were about to kill him due to Order 66. I always thought Yoda would just push them out of the way or Force Pull their weapons from them and have the wookies arrest the troopers to avoid killing them.

    Later on in ROTS he does take the less violent path by using the force to incapacitate Sidious' Red Royal Guards, so why couldn't he do the same to the troopers? I get that he was killing them in self defense but since he is so powerful anyway, why not just incapacitate them, not like they were actually any threat to him alive.

    That quote from the OT and seeing Yoda do this in the PT left me with a bit of cognitive dissonance. Now, maybe I don't care about it that much but I'd still like to get some closure on why that happened, if possible.
     
  9. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Antpocalypse

    Good observation. But technically and IMHO, Yoda was acting in self-defense when he decapitated those clones in RotS. In contrast, when attacking the Emperor's guards he knocked them out (or did he kill these?).

    We could also argue whether Kenobi's lightsaber action in the Mos Eisley Cantina was necessary. But I think using the Force would have attracted even more attention there than "just" handling a lightsaber. And another case of self-defence.

    AshiusX

    Yoda telling Luke he has to "confront" Darth Vader again didn't imply to kill him. He made that clear in the cave (weapons are not required) and Luke had witnessed in Bespin that he had "won" by not using a weapon.

    Does Obi-Wan really tell Luke to kill Vader? It's Luke who says "I can't kill my own father" to which Kenobi neither replies with confirmation or objection, leaving the issue rather ambiguous.
     
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  10. AshiusX

    AshiusX Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2016
    Personally, I don't see any dissonance. If any its not much to affect my enjoyment of it.
     
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    A Jedi can kill, but usually it is in defense of themselves or others. Yoda killed the Clonetroopers because he sensed that they were going to kill him and recalled that the Sith had some plan in mind for them. When he knocked out Palpatine's guards, he only did that. Likewise, Obi-wan chose to negotiate with Ponda Baba and Dr. Evanzan because that was his way. That's why he had the title of the Great Negotiator during the war. He only drew his saber when they drew their blasters, but he let them live.

    What's different is why and how they choose to fight. That makes all the difference.
     
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  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    According to the Databank, Obi-Wan's blow killed Evazan:

    http://www.starwars.com/databank/ponda-baba

    it was in the EU that he survived it - the newcanon seems to have retconned this.
     
  13. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    [​IMG]

    Iron_lord wrote

    it was in the EU that he survived it - the newcanon seems to have retconned this.

    Just a minute, get your facts straight, please.
    1. George Lucas Canon settles the issue rather clearly. In absence of onscreen facts, novelization and radio drama are canon.
    2. The character's name is Roofoo according to Han Solo in the radio drama and a "small time punk". This whole EU conjecture that he might be an M.D. is by far the most prepousterous blunder I've ever heard (I wouldn't even let this dirty, filthy guy mow my lawn)
    3. He was sliced in half according to the ANH novelization
    If anybody has "retconned" anything here, it's some of these EU writers / inventors.
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    "George Lucas Canon" doesn't exist anymore since he sold the franchise.

    The beings sliced in half in the novelization are a many-eyed alien and a "rodent-thing". The human lives in the novelization (like in the EU) - but the newcanon system has him die, instead.


    For the life of him he couldn’t understand what Ben wanted with the monster, or why he was spending his time in guttural conversation with it instead of with the now- vanished Corellians. So he sat and sipped his drink in splendid silence, his eyes roving over the crowd in hopes of meeting a responsive gaze that held no belligerence.
    Suddenly, something shoved him roughly from behind, so hard he almost fell.
    He turned angrily, but his fury spent itself in astonishment. He found himself confronted by a large squarish monstrosity of multiple eyes and indeterminate origin.
    "Negola dewaghi wooldugger?" the apparition bubbled challengingly.
    Luke had never seen its like before; he knew neither its species nor its language.
    The gabbling might have been an invitation to a fight, a request to share a drink, or a marriage proposal. Despite his ignorance, however, Luke could tell by the way the creature bobbed and wove unsteadily on its podal supports that it had imbibed too much of whatever it considered a pleasing intoxicant.
    Not knowing what else to do, Luke tried turning back to his own drink while studiously ignoring the creature. As he did so, a thing—a cross between a capybara and a small baboon—bounced over to stand (or squat) next to the quivering many-eye.
    A short, companionable arm around the snuffling mass.
    "He doesn’t like you," the stubby human informed Luke in a surprisingly deep voice.
    "I’m sorry about that," Luke admitted, wishing heartily he were somewhere else.
    "I don’t like you either," the smiling little man went on with brotherly negativity.
    "I said I was sorry about it." Whether from the conversation it was having with the rodent-like creature or the overdose of booze, the apartment house for wayward eyeballs was obviously growing agitated. It leaned forward, almost toppling into Luke, and spewed a stream of unintelligible gibberish at him. Luke felt the eyes of a crowd on him as he grew increasingly more nervous.
    "Sorry," the human mimicked derisively, clearly deep into his own cups. "Are you insulting us? You just better watch yourself. We’re all wanted." He indicated his drunken companions. "I have the death sentence on me in twelve different systems."
    "I’ll be careful, then," Luke muttered.
    The little man was smiling broadly. "You'll be dead."
    At this the rodent let out a loud grunt. It was either a signal or a warning, because everything human or otherwise which had been leaning up at the bar immediately backed away, leaving a clear space around Luke and his antagonists.
    Trying to salvage the situation, Luke essayed a wan smile. That faded rapidly when he saw that the three were readying hand weapons. Not only couldn't he have countered all three of them, he had no idea what a couple of the lethal-looking devices did.
    "This little one isn't worth the trouble," a calm voice said. Luke looked up, startled. He hadn't heard Kenobi come up alongside him. "Come, let me buy you all something…"
    By way of reply the bulky monster chittered hideously and swung out a massive limb. It caught an unprepared Luke across the temple and sent him spinning across the room, crashing through tables and shattering a large jug filled with a foul-smelling liquid.
    The crowd edged back farther, a few grunts and warning snorts coming from some of them as the drunken monstrosity pulled a wicked-looking pistol from its service pouch. He started to wave it in Kenobi's direction.
    That spurred the heretofore-neutral bartender to life. He came charging clumsily around the end of the bar, waving his hands frantically but still taking care to stay out of range.
    "No blasters, no blasters! Not in my place!"
    The rodent thing chattered threateningly at him, while the weapon wielding many-eye spared him a warning grunt.
    In the split second when the gun and its owner's attention was off him, the old man's hand had moved to the disk slung at his side. The short human started to yell as a fiery blue-white light appeared in the dimness of the cantina.
    He never finished the yell. It turned into a blink. When the blink was finished, the man found himself lying prone against the bar, moaning and whimpering as he stared at the stump of an arm.
    In between the start of his yell and the conclusion of the blink, the rodent-thing had been cleft cleanly in half down the middle, its two halves falling in opposite directions. The giant multiocular creature still stood staring, dazed, at the old human who was poised motionless before it, the shining lightsaber held over his head in a peculiar fashion. The creature's chrome pistol fired once, blowing a hole in the door. Then the torso peeled away as neatly as had the body of the rodent, its two cauterized sections falling in opposite directions to lie motionless on the cool stone.
    Only then did the suggestion of a sigh escape from Kenobi; only then did his body appear to relax. Bringing the lightsaber down, he flipped it carefully upward in a reflex saluting motion which ended with the deactivated weapon resting innocuously on his hip.
    That final movement broke the total quiet which had enshrouded the room. Conversations resumed, as did the movement of bodies in chairs, the scraping of mugs and pitchers and other drinking devices on tabletops. The bartender and several assistants appeared to drag the unsightly corpses out of the room, while the mutilated human vanished wordlessly into the crowd, cradling the stump of his gun arm and counting himself fortunate.


    As I was pointing out - the EU had "the guy with the squashed nose who was injured by Kenobi" survive his attack - but whoever's in charge of the Databank - a "newcanon reference work", has him die.

    And as for "Roofoo" - that's an alias:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Roofoo

    Roofoo was the alias adopted by Cornelius Evazan during his time on Tatooine in 0 BBY.


    Before the name "Evazan" appeared in print in 1989's Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope, the 1981 Star Wars radio drama referred to the character as "Roofoo." The name was later referred to as an alias in Evazan's Databank entry on StarWars.com.
     
  15. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Iron_lord wrote

    "George Lucas Canon" doesn't exist anymore since he sold the Franchise.

    That's what some people would like to make us believe. The essence of George Lucas Canon is that the people that worked with Lucasfilm in the early 1980's got most of the genuine information about what had been intended or not or double checked with LFL. George Lucas own statement on the issue what canon is, made that clear. Selling the franchise and/or have new people (not even born, then) tell us what "canon" is can apply to works beyond the OT and the PT but technically will never be able to alter those original intentions.

    I agree that the ANH novelization is a bit obfuscated. The rodent (part of the trio, another thing the EU never acknowledged) got sliced in half as did the many-eyed creature (must have been "Ponda Baba") while the human got lucky and just lost his arm. However, in the film it's "Ponda Baba" who's loosing his arm and the radio drama suggested that Roofoo ("Dr. Evazan") got cut in half (vocal statement by another Cantina patron).

    Thus both film and subsequent radio drama agree Roofoo got killed in the encounter, that's not a retcon.
     
  16. Pancellor Chalpatine

    Pancellor Chalpatine Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    I think it's a hyperbole. They were blinded by it, and had natural emotions like fear and anger, but they had it under control....most of em. They didn't like being in so much battle and neglecting pre war duties, but it had to be done.

    The PT Jedi get way to much hate. Glad I'm not seeing it right here but I always see people say "how stupid are they not to see Sidious was a sith lord" and I just facepalm.
     
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  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I think the simplest answer is that "rodent" and "many eye" were combined. Ponda has two large teeth coming out of where the chin would be on a human.

    I would also point out that the film is very unclear as to what happened to Dr Evazan, and the radio drama adds things - and added things are C-canon, not G-canon.



    So it's quite reasonable to say

    "Film (G-Canon) was unclear, radio drama (C-Canon) decided he was dead, later EU (C-canon) (decided he was alive (and are allowed to do that), newcanon (replacing all the C-Canon/G-canon distinctions) decided he was dead."
     
  18. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Iron_lord

    I could almost agree to your conclusion except for one important detail (from Wikipedia):

    "G-canon was George Lucas canon: Considered absolute canon, it included Episodes I–VI (the released films at that time), and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the scripts, filmed deleted scenes, film novelizations, reference books, radio plays, and other primary sources were also G-canon when not in contradiction with the released films. G-canon overrided the lower levels of canon when there was a contradiction." [face_peace]
     
  19. heels1785

    heels1785 Skywalker Saga + JCC Manager / Finally Won A Draft star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Let's keep this one on topic, folks. Thank you.
     
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  20. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    The era we come into in TPM is really just the tail end of the glorious era of the Republic that is hinted at in the later films. By the time we are brought into the story things are already starting to unravel, the dark side is growing in strength, and groups such as the Trade Federation and the Senate (and yes, even the Jedi Order) have already started clutching at straws.

    I similarly don't know the extent Yoda's "Rebels" statement is truly reflected in the films, but Lucas leaves a lot open to interpretation, and on rewatches of the original six films in 1-6 order it did become apparent that the wisdom in the Jedi of the OT is developed through loss in the newer trilogy and has a more meaningful edge in this new light. Part of that is the apparent blindness in the PT Jedi versus the clarity with which Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Luke (ROTJ) seem to present themselves in the originals. The PT Jedi had their heart in the right place, but this disparity is likely not coincidental, Lucas seems to know what he was setting up in terms of the scope of the bigger picture.


    Yeah, the Jedi were pretty much doomed to fail in the PT, some don't like this pre-determined nature to some aspects of the PT-influenced saga structure, but I think it makes things pretty compelling. Mace, Anakin and Yoda all come quite close to ending Palpatine in ROTS, but through their forgivable flaws and some really intricate planning by Palpatine, their efforts go unrewarded. I like the irony that Anakin acts as kind of a fulcrum at the crucial moments, and since destiny had driven a perhaps unavoidable wedge between himself and the needed positive influence of his fellow Jedi, he betrays the Order and himself and the galaxy pays the price.


    If anyone is interested, I made a pretty involved thread on Palpatine's planning a while back...

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/an-essay-on-palpatine-sidious-in-rots.50032812/
     
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  21. Darth DoJ

    Darth DoJ Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2016
    I think consumed is the wrong word... They had ventured further into the dark side than they would have liked, but never realised. They had become arrogant, they lent themselves out to the republic as warriors, they racked up a kill count, they were whipping out their lightsabers and taking lives at an alarming rate, justified or not, and the whole time they were working towards sealing their fate. The Jedi order had technically already fallen before they were wiped out, they had, in my view, become more like "grey Jedi" without even realising it, and as such, their judgement and future vision was heavily clouded.
     
  22. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Yes, it's the same word used to describe someone's fall or turn to the dark side. Which is supposed to be a significant thing. If you use the same terminology to describe the PT Jedi, you're acting as if they all turned to the dark side. You're effectively erasing the distinction between Darth Vader and, say, Yoda and Obi-Wan.
     
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  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    That's kinda the point. The lines between good and evil have become blurred and because the Jedi did evil things in the service of good, they lost sight of who they were and were thus consumed by the dark side.
     
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  24. dsematsu

    dsematsu Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 6, 2013
    The Jedi Order was actually consumed by the light side. Their own teachings and codes were what allowed the Order to be deceived and corrupted.
     
  25. mihaitzateo

    mihaitzateo Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 2015
    Well I think Disney is actually respecting Lucasfilm canon.
    If you look in TFA, Luke has actually retired,taking the path of Master Yoda,to remain on the Light side.
    I think in next episodes,Luke will be a Master-Yoda character,not getting involved in fighting against the New Empire.
    Why Master Yoda refuses to go fight the Empire in original trilogy?
    He is clearly enough strong to defeat Vader ...but he does not want to interfere anymore.
    He is training Luke,but was not Master Yoda foreseeing the light side resolve of Luke ,with having Anakin converted back
    to the light side?
    So,I think the Jedis,after the great purge,changed their way of thinking and became more passive,more willing to have more trust in the Force.

    Master Yoda was very aware that Luke can not defeat Darth Sidious...why he sends than Luke to confront Darth Sidious?

    Luke is going to fight the Emperor or is going to try convert his father ?
    He renounces his defense ,throwing the light saber away and remaining defenseless in front of the Darth Sidious.
    So,he is actually let the will of the Force to be manifesting.

    Please watch with more care,is the Force who is helping Luke and Leia ,a lot,to get victorious.
    While Luke is accepting to lay off his defense,seeing that the rebel fleet will be destroyed ,on the moon of Endor,Han gets a winning idea, how to manage to
    enter in the building that protects the shield generator.
    So the Force makes from a certain win of the empire,a big win of the Empire.
    As someone was saying before,the Jedis should allow the will of the Force to manifest and not impose their will to the Force.