Jedi - Overpowered?

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by -Kyle-Katarn-, Jul 2, 2003.

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  1. DexRicon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 1
    I love Jedi, I absolutely do. But after playing as and with them for a little while and then reflecting on their uses in the movies and in the EU, it does seem that they are overpowered. In fact, it seems that the only characters who are a real threat to Jedi are other Force users. The greatest example of this is in Attack of the Clones when Obi-Wan takes on Jango. The fight would have been over in a couple of seconds without Jango's jetpack. Obi-Wan would have closed in and left Jango without a hand. If one goes by the SW:RPG, this becomes even worse because Jango had a full five levels on Obi-Wan.
    Granted, Jango did kill a Jedi later in the movie, but the Jedi (what species was he) was concentrating on the Sith Lord. It seems to be the only way to kill a Jedi; with a lightsabre or simply overwhelm his danger sense.

    I've consistantly run into a problem when creating campaigns with Jedi. The main antagonist either has to be a Force user which makes non force users nearly impotent, or has to be royally overpowered.

    Fortunately on that issue, the idea of using Ysalimari at key points hadn't come to me until now. Good idea Koohii, thanks a lot! What would be even better is that I'd say while under the effects of a ysalimari, a lightsabre doesn't do the extra damage, just 2d8. *laughs* "The power to destroy a planet is insignifigant next to the power of the Force, which is insignifigant next to the power of a worm a little smaller than a house cat."
  2. -Kyle-Katarn- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    Yeah, that Jango/Obi Wan sequence always bothered me SWRPG-wise. A Jedi Guardian 7/Jedi Master 2/Jedi Investigator 1 takes on a Scout 4/Soldier 6/Bounty Hunter 5 and forces him to flee? Meh...

    The Luke Skywalker (Fringer 2/Jedi Guardian 5 at the time) slicing Boba's weapon was probably a critical hit, and he 'died' by a fluke more than anything, but still...

    Of course, they obviously weren't thinking about SWRPG when they made the movies :).

    Some other funny matchups are Luke (Fringer 2/Jedi Guardian 6) taking on Darth Vader (Fringer 1/Jedi Guardian 11/Sith Lord 6) in their final battle, and winning! Talk about critical hits =p.
  3. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    Sometimes all it takes is a key shot to sway a battle. Skywalker sundered Fetts blaster on Jabbas Barge. A critical hit could've shot down Vaders title reign. And even at a lower level, Kenobi is still no slouch. Remember, he's the guy who pimp slapped Maul.
  4. Jacen13 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2002
    star 2
    And Luke used a Dark Force Point in the battle with Vader, so that gives him a pretty good bonus, considering the Skywalker special power, treating a Force Point spent as 2 levels higher. Besides the fact that I believe that the Emporer weakened Vader's defenses when he saw that Luke had more potential than Vader.
  5. Matador Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    From what I understand Boba didnt die in the stomach of the big giant hole. I dont remember where or from whom, but I believe he has appeared in books etc. after ROTJ was staged.
  6. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    thats why he used inverted commas ;)
  7. DexRicon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 1
    Lukes ability to use FPs as though he were three levels higher would have been irrelevent if he had called on the dark side. In fact, it would have had the same effects to call on the light side. He was 8th level, so using an FP as though three levels higher would have granted him a 4d6 bonus using the light side or the dark side. The dark side would only have aided him if he didn't have the "FP use as though three levels higher." Another prime example of why I try to ignore the canon when playing SWRPG, they don't often meld together.
  8. -Kyle-Katarn- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    Hmm...oh yeah, that sequence...

    I lent out my Dark Side Handbook...what level/classes is Maul again? I think he was around level 15....

    Kenobi was inarguably a Level 6 Jedi Guardian when he was fighting Maul (since he advanced to the rank of Jedi Knight right after). A Level 6 Jedi Guardian....hmm...

    I think what happened is that when he was dangling, he used a Force Point to boost himself up, and managed to get a critical hit on Maul (and managed to get more than his WP on his lightsaber damage). It's possible, even if it is unlikely.

    On another subject, is there an offical Qui-Gon Jinn? I'd call him a...

    Jedi Guardian 8/Jedi Master 8

    or such.
  9. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    In the original CRB he was something like Jedi Guardian 15 or so. Before they felt the need to multiclass everything to death.
  10. -Kyle-Katarn- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    Hey, multiclassing everyone to how they should be is fun =p.

    Too much multiclassing can be really cheap, though. Check out this 20th level character I made when I was REALLY bored at my grandparents'. I didn't calculate what skills/feats he has exactly, but I did calculate them whenever it was a requirement for one of the Prestige classes. It is possible for him to have all these levels:

    Almighty Loser: Male Human Jedi Guardian 1/Soldier 1/Fringer 1/Force Adept 1/Dark Side Marauder 2/Dark Side Devotee 2/Bounty Hunter 2/Crime Lord 2/Officer 2/Jedi Ace 2/Starship Ace 2/Elite Trooper 2

    VP/WP: 100/14
    Init +10 (+6 Dex, +4 II), Def 40(!!!) (+23 class, +6 dex, +1 dodge), Speed 10m, Melee Atk +13/+8/+3 (2d8, lightsaber) OR Ranged Atk +19/+14/+9 (4d8, Hvy Rptng Blaster). Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8. FP 20, DSP 3, Rep +14.

    With his feats (Multishot/Rapid Shot), he can perform a +15/+15/+15/+11/+7 with 4d8 damage on the Hvy Rptng Blaster. That's pretty impressive. Of course, the real reason this character is so ungodly powerful is his defense. Good luck hitting him with anything short of a critical hit.

  11. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    It's enough to make me want to dowse myself in lighter fluid and burn myself at a stake with my sourcebooks adding fuel to the fire.
  12. Diverjkc Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2002
    star 3
    matador: Boba Fett detonated a bomb inside the Sarlacc and Dengar (another bounty hunter) rescued him, nursed him back to health, and became his partner. This was in the Tales from Jabba's Pallace book.

    Stunning is an exclent way to win a match, even using a few different rules. And yes, pass the matches.
  13. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Almighty Loser: Male Human Jedi Guardian 1/Soldier 1/Fringer 1/Force Adept 1/Dark Side Marauder 2/Dark Side Devotee 2/Bounty Hunter 2/Crime Lord 2/Officer 2/Jedi Ace 2/Starship Ace 2/Elite Trooper 2

    VP/WP: 100/14
    Init +10 (+6 Dex, +4 II), Def 40(!!!) (+23 class, +6 dex, +1 dodge), Speed 10m, Melee Atk +13/+8/+3 (2d8, lightsaber) OR Ranged Atk +19/+14/+9 (4d8, Hvy Rptng Blaster). Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8. FP 20, DSP 3, Rep +14.

    With his feats (Multishot/Rapid Shot), he can perform a +15/+15/+15/+11/+7 with 4d8 damage on the Hvy Rptng Blaster. That's pretty impressive. Of course, the real reason this character is so ungodly powerful is his defense. Good luck hitting him with anything short of a critical hit.


    A couple of points...

    1) I don't believe a +23 DEF is possible, I'm willing to be proven wrong, but did you remember to -2 from the multiclassing penalty for non-Prestige Class multiclassing? (e.g. a Scout at 1st level has +2, thus when multiclassing you add +2 - 2 == +0).

    2) Sure, he can fire @ +15/+15/+15/+11/+7 with a Heavy Repeater -- but then he can't move. Since repeaters are REQUIRED to shoot on Multi- or Autofire. They can't do single-shots. Ever.

    3) The character wouldn't have his lightsaber after leaving the Jedi Order, unless he violated the restriction, in which case he'd be hunted down and killed by the Jedi (see: Count Dooku) -- unlikely to reach 20th level.

    4) You're locked into a whole bunch of feats. I see you've chosen 4 (Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Multi Shot and Improved Initiative). However, from that list above I can only see Fringer 1 that grants a bonus feat off the bat out of the 8 you can choose. You still require, at least, Starship Operation, Starship Dodge, Track and the others all require some, I believe (doesn't Officer require some Capital Ship Operation, Bounty Hunter == Low Profile, etc.?)
  14. -Kyle-Katarn- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    He has Track. Low Profile is not needed for Bounty Hunter. Nor is Starship Operation needed for Officer. With enoguh skill points and base attack bonus, you'd be surprised how easy it is to multiclass.

    And yes, I did count the -2 for multiclassing into non-prestige classes.

    See:
    Jedi Guardian 1
    +3
    /Soldier 1
    +1
    /Fringer 1
    +1
    /Force Adept 1
    +1
    /Dark Side Marauder 2
    +2
    /Dark Side Devotee 2
    +3
    /Bounty Hunter 2
    +2
    /Crime Lord 2
    +2
    /Officer 2
    +2
    /Jedi Ace 2
    +2
    /Starship Ace 2
    +2
    /Elite Trooper 2
    +2

    Total them up: 23.
  15. -Kyle-Katarn- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    You'll notice he gains one defense every level, which adds up to 20, except for Dark Side Devotee, which starts off with a +2 to defense (adding 1 to the total) and his starting defense bonus.
  16. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    He can't be a Jedi Ace. Since the character has moved away from the Jedi Order.

    In addition to the four I listed, you also require Dodge, Precise Shot, Power Attack, Infamy plus the others I mentioned... for a grand total of 7 more.

    You get 8 (1,1,3,6,9,12,15,18) + 2 (Fringer 1/Dark Side Marauder 2) for a total of 10.

    Unless, of course, I counted wrong.
  17. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    Guys, why are you even debating this?
  18. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    "The greatest example of this is in Attack of the Clones when Obi-Wan takes on Jango. The fight would have been over in a couple of seconds without Jango's jetpack."

    But he DID have a jetpack, so the bounty hunter gave the Jedi Master a very difficult time. Why in the name of Salma Hayek would you want to NOT have mobility when facing one of these melee nightmares?

    -You wouldn't be able to treat me like this if I wasn't in a wheelchair!

    -But you ARE, Blanche! You are!
    :p

    To add to that, I once ran a one-shot that featured a high-level Soldier/Elite Soldier character (Sol6/Elite10); he and the Sharpshooter (Sol5/Sct1/Sharp10) were eating Jedi for breakfast. The Elite Soldier had a light repeating blaster, the Rapid Shot feat, and an ungodly BAB. Likewise, the Sharpshooter was a monster with his blaster rifle. That +1 or +2 to defense vs. blasters does diddly against multiple shots coming in with a +20 or so bonus to hit.
  19. -Kyle-Katarn- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    Oh, yes, I suppose you're right about the Jedi Ace. Well, I can still just add two more levels in Soldier (reducing the class bonus total to +22). Like I said, there are no feats required for Officer, and only Track for bounty hunter. The other classes are possible to get.

    So, a defense of 39 is possible. If I had the Hero's Guide, I'm 99% sure I'd be able to raise it back up to 40 or even higher.

    The bottom line: Next time they redo the books, they should make a rule that every Prestige class' starting defense bonus is +0. Or, if it's +1, that it has a lot of Feat requirements.
  20. DexRicon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 1
    The thing is that even with all of his technology and experience, Jango, 15th level, was brought to within a nose hair of defeat by Obi-Wan, 10th level. Without a single piece of technology, the fight would have been over in a few seconds.

    The issue of mobility leads to another question. Does it say how fast Jango's jetpack can go? A Jedi with Force Flight (one of my favorite feats) moves 10 meters a round with only six ranks of Move Object. Would Jango be able to out run him? I'd suppose so, at least until he landed a half kilometer away and found the Jedi had used Burst of Speed. Then he'd have to hope his attack bonus could deal with the Jedi's lessened vitality. I'll say it again, Jedi are overpowered.
  21. -Kyle-Katarn- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    Omg, I just acquired 'The Power of the Jedi''s Prestige classes. And I thought the Jedi were overpowered before! They need to be careful about putting Increased Lightsaber Damage at any level below 4th. The potential for abuse is overwhelming! See below:


    Jedi Guardian 5/Jedi Weapon Master 5/Jedi Master 2/Jedi Investigator 2

    That's a 14th, level character. Now, let's take a look-see at his Lightsaber damage:

    2d8 + 1d8 (JG) + 2d8 (JWM) + 1d8 (JM) + 1d8 (JI) = 7d8.

    That's a 14th level character doing 7d8 lightsaber damage. Not to mention the Weapon Mastery feats he can get, which steal all the individuality out of the blaster wielders, taking away the exclusiveness of Deadly Strike and Rapid Shot. Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. How is a non-force user supposed to stand up to that? And this isn't counting all the battle tricks Jedi can employ, like Burst of Speed, Move Object, Enhance Ability, Lightsaber Defense, Redirecting attacks, and, if they can find a place to stay safe for 6 seconds, HEAL SELF. I mean, come on! No wonder Obi-Wan stood a chance against Jango.

    I was very pleased with the Jedi Healer and Jedi Scholar classes in the book, though. Not overpowered, and unique. My newest character is a Jedi Consular 3/Jedi Healer 1.

    Oh, yeah, that reminds me. The ability 'Luminous Being', besides what it already means, does that also literally mean that your being is...well...luminous? Because that would be really cool =p.
  22. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    That's a 14th level character doing 7d8 lightsaber damage. Not to mention the Weapon Mastery feats he can get, which steal all the individuality out of the blaster wielders, taking away the exclusiveness of Deadly Strike and Rapid Shot. Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. How is a non-force user supposed to stand up to that? And this isn't counting all the battle tricks Jedi can employ, like Burst of Speed, Move Object, Enhance Ability, Lightsaber Defense, Redirecting attacks, and, if they can find a place to stay safe for 6 seconds, HEAL SELF. I mean, come on! No wonder Obi-Wan stood a chance against Jango.

    Please remember certain things:
    1) Burst of Speed is a full-round action, during which a Jedi can ONLY move. No attacks that round.

    2) Heal Self is a full-round action, during which a) you draw an attack of opportunity for using it and b) you can't attack.

    3) Lightsaber Defense + Knight Defense + Master Defense is +6 to DEF. Figure you now have a 24 or so. What's that going to do against someone shooting at them with +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3? (13th level Soldier with 18 DEX, Rapid Shot, Multi-shot, Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting and modded weapons)

    4) Once you use Move Object (which has only a 10m range) you can only attack once in a round. Also, what would a Jedi use Move Object for to give them an advantage? They can't attack someone with it (instant DSP).

    Oh, yeah, that reminds me. The ability 'Luminous Being', besides what it already means, does that also literally mean that your being is...well...luminous? Because that would be really cool =p.

    Yes. You become a Force Spirit (like Obi-Wan), hence... "luminous." (Blue glow-y guy)
  23. -Kyle-Katarn- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    I know once I have the ability Luminous Being I can willingly become a Force Spirit, but I mean, do I have the blue-glowy-thingy while I'm still alive? Maybe a faint resonance?
  24. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    I know once I have the ability Luminous Being I can willingly become a Force Spirit, but I mean, do I have the blue-glowy-thingy while I'm still alive? Maybe a faint resonance?

    I'd tend to doubt it, but if you're GMing there's no reason you can't have that going on... :)
  25. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    DexRicon wrote:
    "The thing is that even with all of his technology and experience, Jango, 15th level, was brought to within a nose hair of defeat by Obi-Wan, 10th level. Without a single piece of technology, the fight would have been over in a few seconds."

    In other words: since Jango Fett used equipment within the grasp of a character of his level, and used it to fight more intelligently than standing there & waiting for the Jedi to cut him down, he actually confounded the uber-1337 Jedi.

    "A Jedi with Force Flight (one of my favorite feats) moves 10 meters a round with only six ranks of Move Object. Would Jango be able to out run him? I'd suppose so, at least until he landed a half kilometer away and found the Jedi had used Burst of Speed. Then he'd have to hope his attack bonus could deal with the Jedi's lessened vitality."

    First off, the usage of Burst of Speed is a full-round action. Secondly, in order to cover that much ground even with BoS, the Jedi would have to make a Run. When you've run, you no longer have a Dex bonus to Defense. Any situation that denies Dex bonuses also denies dodge bonuses, like say for example, the Deflect SQ. This means that the Jedi can't act, and has a crap Defense. This means that he has no choice but take it while Jango lets loose with Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, & Two-Weapon Fighting from his multifire blaster pistols [face_devil]

    -Kyle-Katarn- wrote:
    "How is a non-force user supposed to stand up to that?"

    Easy: stay more than 10 meters away from the Jedi and lay into him massive fire. You'll be out of range for the Jedi using Move Object to snatch your weapons. Better yet, open fire from greater than one range increment of your weapons, that way the Jedi has no chance whatsoever of deflecting those shots back at you. Deflect (attack) is only good for one range increment. For even more pain & suffering, take the Far Shot feat. Deflect (attack) is only good for one range increment of the weapon, not the shooter. Use the auto- or multifire option on weapons, or use a light repeating blaster. Better yet, use a heavy repeating blaster or an E-web. Jedi can't deflect Heavy weapons fire. The more shots you can get in, the greater your probability of scoring a threat. With a good BAB, that means a better chance to score a crit. Even a Jedi is not likely to survive 3d8 WP damage.

    "And this isn't counting all the battle tricks Jedi can employ, like Burst of Speed, Move Object, Enhance Ability, Lightsaber Defense, Redirecting attacks, and, if they can find a place to stay safe for 6 seconds, HEAL SELF."

    Any character worth their salt is going to dole out more damage in a shot or two than Heal Self can recoup. Moreover, Heal Self is only usable once per hour.

    What it boils down to is that it sounds to me like the Jedi is being played to the fullest extent of their abilities, and the non-Jedi are not.

    Tell ya what I'll do to be sporting: you pick a level & stat creation method, and make up the most cheese-weasel Jedi you can. I'll make a non-Jedi of the same level, and then we can compare notes [face_devil]
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