Jedi - Overpowered?

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by -Kyle-Katarn-, Jul 2, 2003.

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  1. DexRicon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 1
    The question still remains with Burst of Speed, would Jango be able to outrun a Burst of Speed with a Jetpack. A 10th level Jedi has enough vitality to take a single hit. One round later, of course, the Jedi would attack and that would be the end of the match because Jango couldn't get away. I take you to Jango's death, where he attempted to use his jetpack in the same manner and when it didn't work, Mace went Highlander on him.

    In relation to the other comments about using far shot and heavy weapons. If you use a light repeating blaster, you can't move because it doesn't fire single shots. You get off a couple of hits, the Jedi takes them because a single or double hit from a heavy weapon isn't going to incapacitate a mid to high level character, strides up to his opponent and makes them very quickly dead because they can't move.

    BTW, even if your sharpshooting Jedi killer is just that, could that same character then negotiate a peace treaty? Jedi are overpowered, but they're not invincible. The catch lies in their ability to take on most higher leveled warriors and still be juggernaughts in other categories, such as diplomacy. That's why they're overpowered. If a character intends to kill Jedi, he has to spend all of his feats to get the right combination to kill them. If a Jedi intends to take on higher leveled bounty hunters, he can still take feats like Force Mind that have no bearing on killing bounty hunters but that make him a lot more useful in other situations.

    The obvious exception to what I've said above is accounting for the roleplaying/tactical skill of the player. For Joe Blow, what I've said may be true. For the experienced or the talented, it probably isn't.
  2. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Burst of Speed allows 10x movement (at a single-move rate) for one round. Hence, you can move 100 meters (or 50 2m squares).

    I don't recall what the jetpack speeds per round are...
  3. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    "A 10th level Jedi has enough vitality to take a single hit. One round later, of course, the Jedi would attack and that would be the end of the match because Jango couldn't get away."

    Let me put it to you this way: it's not that Jango couldn't get away, it's that he didn't get away. Jango Fett fought brilliantly against Obi-Wan Kenobi & Coleman Trebor, and foolishly against Mace Windu. If a Jedi is is closing in on you brandishing a lightsaber, you do everything in your power to stay as far away from them as you can for as long as possible, or you die. Jango Fett did exactly the wrong thing against Mace Windu: he stood there and basically waited to be decapitated. What Fett should've done in that situation is use the battlefield to his advantage, specifically retreat to where the battledroids were more prevalent, and the Jedi would have to worry about more than a single shooter.

    "In relation to the other comments about using far shot and heavy weapons. If you use a light repeating blaster, you can't move because it doesn't fire single shots. You get off a couple of hits, the Jedi takes them because a single or double hit from a heavy weapon isn't going to incapacitate a mid to high level character, strides up to his opponent and makes them very quickly dead because they can't move."

    Why can't they move? What is this shooter doing while the Jedi closes on them, standing there like a slack-jawed yokel? That's why I said stay at least more than 10 meters from them. More than that, and they can't do more than move to close in on you. Granted, if the Jedi is within 20 meters, they can charge, but that only garners them a single attack, which is unlikely to be fatal, and then you retreat to farther away than they can reach in a charge. Then you blast away while they close, retreat before they get within striking distance. Better yet, position yourself to where you start out father away than they can charge. As I said, if you're more than one weapon range increment away from them, then you can just fire while they attempt to close and then retreat. Lather, rinse, repeat. If they Burst of Speed to close, then they get one shot with Heroic Surge (and there's a limit to how many times they can do that) or they're done for the round altogether.

    "BTW, even if your sharpshooting Jedi killer is just that, could that same character then negotiate a peace treaty?"

    Could your Jedi Combat Monster negotiate that treaty? A Jedi Consular or Jedi Master could, but they're also not combat monsters either. They could use the Force to negotiate that treaty, but then they'd be violating the free will of the negotiators to bring about results that the Jedi desired. That's selfishness, and selfishness leads to the dark side.

    "Jedi are overpowered, but they're not invincible. The catch lies in their ability to take on most higher leveled warriors and still be juggernaughts in other categories, such as diplomacy."

    Actually, the catch is that they're ability to take on higher leveled warriors is powered by the same thing that allows them to survive being hit by this selfsame warrior. If they're using the Force for every situation, then they're mowing through VPs like candy. Woe betide the Jedi when he finds himself in a fight vs. a capable foe after they've used all their VPs frivolously. Moreover, the time that the Jedi is spending blowing VPs on combat buffs is time that the opponent can use to either position themselves tactically, pound them into submission, or both.

    "The obvious exception to what I've said above is accounting for the roleplaying/tactical skill of the player. For Joe Blow, what I've said may be true. For the experienced or the talented, it probably isn't."

    You've now made my point for me: Jedi are only as fantastic as their players can play them, and as much as their GM allows them to be.
  4. -Kyle-Katarn- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    The best cheese Jedi character I can create? Whoah, this will be fun =p. Uhmmm....

    Level 14.

    Jedi Guardian 5/Jedi Weapon Master 5/Jedi Investigator 2/Jedi Master 2.

    Lightsaber damage 7d8.
  5. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    Wasn't Jangos jetpack missing for most of the Obi Wan duel anyway? And it got taken out when the rhino thingy charged him with Mace around. Not that it mattered, he's a Fett, which means he had to go down in a cheesy way. After all, Bobas famous last words were "AAAAAHhhhhhhHhhhhhhhH!!!!!!!!" Hardly awe inspiring.
  6. DexRicon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 1
    Let me put it to you this way: it's not that Jango couldn't get away, it's that he didn't get away.

    If you'll watch the DVD, the piece of technology he relied on failed him. His one tool that he was accustomed to using for escaping screwed up. He was unable to adapt quickly enough. A single mistake against a Jedi and he lost.

    Why can't they move?

    Because if you make more than one attack, you have to use a full attack.

    If they Burst of Speed to close, then they get one shot with Heroic Surge (and there's a limit to how many times they can do that) or they're done for the round altogether.

    And they begin the next round right next to their opponent, who either has to take a hit and take a shot (which would only cause more damage on a crit) or run and not take a shot (assuming the person is using a repeating weapon or going for multiple attacks). The Jedi then responds by going after them and then it's a game of tag until someone gives up or the environment, always a wild card, gets involved.

    Could your Jedi Combat Monster negotiate that treaty? A Jedi Consular or Jedi Master could, but they're also not combat monsters either.

    They may not be combat monsters, but their capable of taking on any non force user not devoted to killing Jedi.
    *red herring* Besides, I hate the Jedi Weapon Master class, not versatile enough. */red herring*

    They could use the Force to negotiate that treaty, but then they'd be violating the free will of the negotiators to bring about results that the Jedi desired. That's selfishness, and selfishness leads to the dark side.

    Well, maybe you'd give a DSP for using the Force to negotiate a peace treaty, but Jedi aren't so strict in my campaigns. Using the Force to force a positive situation as long as it doesn't involve hurting anyone is never disallowed in my campaigns. I think I'll finish the ideas that come from this at the end of my post.

    Actually, the catch is that they're ability to take on higher leveled warriors is powered by the same thing that allows them to survive being hit by this selfsame warrior.

    Did Obi-Wan use any Force powers against Jango? If I recall correctly, he used one, Move Object. All the above ideas I've put forth are for someone who is made for fighting Jedi. Basically, they're counters for tactics one would use. Against say a Bounty Hunter who is used to chasing down cunning smugglers who dumped a load of spice, the above tactics aren't needed. The Force is always there to be used, but against someone who only has limited experience or intention to face it, it isn't neccessary. Jedi are overpowered without it. Their attack bonuses combined with their high damage, deflect ability, and the tendency for Jedi to have decently good dexterity, strength, and constitution scores because playing a weakling Jedi isn't as fun as playing a charismatic weakling noble, make Jedi capable of taking on higher level characters not devoted specifically to killing Jedi without the Force.

    Jedi are only as fantastic as their players can play them, and as much as their GM allows them to be.

    One thing I think we unilaterally agree on. Maybe I should change my position. Jedi aren't overpowered as much as they easily become that way if you concentrate on the rules of the game and occasionally let the spirit of the Star Wars movies take over the spirit of the Star Wars universe. In order to keep Jedi balanced, it takes a watchful eye from all the players and the GM. In my games, I let the Jedi get a little overpowered because hey, we think it's fun. It forces everyone to be more creative. Plus it's a thrill to have someone on your team who can lift an X-Wing. In your games, I gather, you keep the Jedi on a shorter leash either through DSPs or simply more refined roleplaying. To each his own. As it says in the beginning of both core rulebooks and the Hero's Guide "It's your game, play it in a way that it's fun." *paraphrased*



  7. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    If you'll watch the DVD, the piece of technology he relied on failed him. His one tool that he was accustomed to using for escaping screwed up. He was unable to adapt quickly enough. A single mistake against a Jedi and he lost.

    Just as a side-note... if you make one mistake against my Soldier 10/Elite 3 -- you'll die just as fast... :p
  8. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    DexRicon wrote:
    "His one tool that he was accustomed to using for escaping screwed up. He was unable to adapt quickly enough. A single mistake against a Jedi and he lost."

    Yup. That sums it up. Like I said, it's not that he couldn't escape. He just stood there stock still while Windu ran him down.

    "And they begin the next round right next to their opponent, who either has to take a hit and take a shot (which would only cause more damage on a crit) or run and not take a shot (assuming the person is using a repeating weapon or going for multiple attacks). The Jedi then responds by going after them and then it's a game of tag until someone gives up or the environment, always a wild card, gets involved."

    That's actually a losing proposition for the Jedi: Even if the shooter does nothing but run far enough away that the Jedi has to use BoS to catch up, that costs small bits of those precious VPs with each use, VPs that the shooter isn't using to flee. Otherwise, the shooter gets a full round of attacks while the Jedi closes, at the cost of only suffering 1 return attack before retreating again. And all of this assumes we're only talking about 2D tactics; the shooter could be using a jet pack. It's a weasel tactic, I know, but we are talking life or death here.

    "They may not be combat monsters, but their capable of taking on any non force user not devoted to killing Jedi."

    I wouldn't even say that we're talking about classes that are set up specifically as Jedi-killers. A well-designed Soldier can handle just about any combat threat, including Jedi. I'll concede that the core Jedi classes are great in one arena and capable in others. However, I'll stand by my assessment while they rival other classes in a single arena (combat for Guardians, social for Consulars) they are outshone outside of their specialty. All things being equal, a Soldier will own a Consular in combat, and a Noble will own a Guardian in negotiations.

    "*red herring* Besides, I hate the Jedi Weapon Master class, not versatile enough. */red herring*"

    Miscommunication here [face_blush] I was referring the the Jedi Master, not the Jedi Weapons Master.

    "Well, maybe you'd give a DSP for using the Force to negotiate a peace treaty, but Jedi aren't so strict in my campaigns. Using the Force to force a positive situation as long as it doesn't involve hurting anyone is never disallowed in my campaigns."

    Fair enough. I guess there's just a difference in how we run our respective games. For me, use Affect Mind is OK to avoid a fight or expedite a search, but to use it to influence the outcome of the peace treaty I think is questionable. Good intentions are irrelevent in this situation. What is relevent is that the Jedi's intentions were somehow more important than the respective parties freely come together and forge peace. To do otherwise is both selfish & short-sighted, IMO. But I digress.

    "Did Obi-Wan use any Force powers against Jango? If I recall correctly, he used one, Move Object."

    I'd say that he also used Enhance Ability (Str) to help him hold fast to the cord & pole. That boosted Str would also help him out with the Bantha Rush that knocked Fett off the edge of the platform :D

    "In order to keep Jedi balanced, it takes a watchful eye from all the players and the GM.
    (snip)
    To each his own. As it says in the beginning of both core rulebooks and the Hero's Guide 'It's your game, play it in a way that it's fun.' *paraphrased*"


    We're in absolute agreement here! Cheers! :cool:
  9. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    "The best cheese Jedi character I can create? Whoah, this will be fun =p. Uhmmm....

    Level 14.

    Jedi Guardian 5/Jedi Weapon Master 5/Jedi Investigator 2/Jedi Master 2.

    Lightsaber damage 7d8."


    It might be a little harder for you to meet all the prereqs for those classes than you think [face_shocked]

    In any event, I'll take you up on it [face_devil] 14th lvl character, cool. How are you determining stat creation? Also, I'd like to see your math, level by level, as far as meeting all the prereqs for each PrC. Likewise, I'll show you my math as well. Then, we can compare notes as to who can do what.

    dp4m, could you help adjudicate? I don't think it'll necessary to do any type of PBEM; I'm thinking a simple comparison will do the trick.
  10. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Hell, I can do the average math in my head... ;)

    Okay, figure this. You will both start with base stats of:

    18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10 which, by 14th level, will have three (3) seperate +1s to one or more stats. Please remember, if you increase INT +2, the skill point bonuses a) do not back-fill (e.g. you don't get the bonuses for the previous 8 levels you have) and b) take effect the level after (e.g. 9th or 13th level).

    Rules:
    - You may be any race, or droid, in any RCRB (or post-RCRB) official WOTC supplement, provided it's an allowable race/droid (e.g. nothing that says "This race/droid should not be/is not allowed as playable characters."), including Web Enhancements.

    - You may be any base class/PrC combination from any RCRB (or post-RCRB) official WOTC supplement, including Web Enhancements, provided you make the prerequisites (if any).

    - You may select any skill or feat from the RCRB or any post-RCRB official WOTC supplement, including Web Enhancements, provided you make the prerequisites (if any).

    - You may select any weapons and/or equipment from the RCRB or post-RCRB official WOTC supplement, including Web Enhancements, subject to the following guidelines:
    a) Jedi characters are assumed to have made their own lightsabers at 7th level for free.
    b) Use the starting funds for 14th level characters from the Hero's Guide.
    c) You are assumed to have unlimited modification time (but not funds) before the encounter begins using the Arms and Equipment Guide modding rules.
    d) Non-Jedi characters should pay particular attention to one of the most recent Jedi Counseling (7/10, I believe). ;)
    - Characters will be posted to this thread, I will particpate (by creating a 14th level character of my own) to demonstrate my thoughts on the matter, and I will verify all math (or maths, for the Brits).

    - Non-Jedi Force-Sensitive characters begin with FP == Level. Jedi characters begin with FP == Level + 1. Non-Force Sensitive characters begin with FP == 5. Anyone who is Tainted may not be a Jedi Knight or above (e.g no Jedi levels totalling 7 or more). And, obviously, no character may take Jedi PrCs once abandoning the Order.

    - We'll post things up on Monday, since I'm gone for the weekend. :)

    - And, of course, all arbitration is final. :D

    How's that work for people?
  11. -Kyle-Katarn- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    Aw, I wanted to be the soldierish guy.

    Oh well, sure, I'll play :). I don't have the Hero's Guide, so I don't know what kind of enchancements that can give...or how many credits I start out with.

    Must....shoot....Jedi....to....bits....gyahh!

    Oh, wait, my latest character is a Jedi Healer. Darn.

    I actually like the Jedi Healer class. I think the kind of lightsaber damage growth they have is reasonable, and they aren't so focused on fighting....

    Also, I think even the top-fighting Jedi should only get 1d8 vitality per level, MAX. 1d10 should be reserved for those who can focus entirely on their body, and not on mind-force skills.

    Oh hell, I don't have all the books...does anyone else want to be the cheese Jedi? You can use the Hero's Guide and other stuff I don't have to make him even cheesier. I want to be a Soldier 6/Elite Trooper 9. Bwa hahah....haha....HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
  12. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    This should be interesting. Can't wait to see the results.
  13. DexRicon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 1
    Even if the shooter does nothing but run far enough away that the Jedi has to use BoS to catch up, that costs small bits of those precious VPs with each use, VPs that the shooter isn't using to flee.

    Unless we're talking about a small character vs a medium character, why would he have to use BoS? Real life physical differences aside, all uninjured medium species I know of are only allowed 10 meters a turn or 20 meters if two move actions are taken. Non Jedi moves 20 meters away and can't attack, Jedi moves 20 meters towards him and also can't attack. Repeat ad nauseum until someone gets a better idea (or gets hit upside the head with a sock filled with nickels). Remember, the Jedi wants to be adjacent to his opponent at all times.

    A well-designed Soldier can handle just about any combat threat, including Jedi.

    There's the difference. A Jedi needn't be well-designed to be able to handle most threats. That's probably the largest reason people complain about Jedi being munchkins. Obviously, if played stupidly, a Jedi has the same bullseye painted on his butt that all characters have. But if the player has a little experience in roleplaying (read: Adventure Game), a Jedi is more than capable for most situations more so than a non-force class and even more than a Force Adept.

    Semper Fi
  14. Regrix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2003
    No Offense, but it sounds to me like someone is trying to place blame elsewhere for a lack of roleplaying skills..

    I am not talking simply sitting there and rolling dice.. but rather breathing life into the character you play.. thinking as the character would and the like.

    The Game itself, including the Jedi are balanced.. it is the degree of skill of the players that tips it one way or another.

    Now I will add that there was an instance in one of the "New Jedi Order" books where Anakin Solo was using the force for everything that one would normally do with some simple tools and a bit of elbow grease and Mara Jade Skywalker admonished him for it.. telling him that it trivializest the force and the person using it.

    Players that play Jedi need to know when to use the force and when not to. If they are the type of people that are going for the "WOW Factor" then they in my not so humble openion have no place playing Jedi in the first place. (Bloody Munchkins!)

    But you get a player with any kind of "TRUE" understanding of the Jedi playing as one.. then your all set.

    A Jedi should never be eager to shead blood, they should never display their lightsaber as a means of "cheap intimidation" (IE.. walking around flaunting it to scare the rank and file. - a simple pulling the robe aside at a "right moment" is OK.)

    Jedi were never meant to be warriors.. but rather keepers of the peace. This doesn't mean they are above the law.. they just help to enforce it.

    Can a Jedi dominate a fight.. with the right role playing and dice cooperation.. Hell yes.. but so can a soldier, noble, fringer, ect..

    Just gotta work on that role playing..

    Here is a non SW example..

    I was playing in a home brew D&D game.. and I was marveling at how potent the other characters in the party were..

    Then I had a conversation with their players and the DM.. and saw the character sheets. the characters were no more poweful than me.. but it was in how they presented themselves..

    It also helps if you have a clear concept of your character.. Not just a Soldier.. but a history for him as well..

    Why did he join the service? What was his childhood like.. what are his hopes, fears, dreams? ect..

    The better a grasp you have on your character you have the more interesting and potent your character seems.
  15. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Drat! I didn't get online to see this until now. I'll have to make up a non-Force user and have it tomorrow.

    Also:
    "No Offense, but it sounds to me like someone is trying to place blame elsewhere for a lack of roleplaying skills..

    (snip)

    The Game itself, including the Jedi are balanced.. it is the degree of skill of the players that tips it one way or another."


    Amen!
  16. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Okay, I'll create the Jedi character then (since y'all are wusses)... ;)
  17. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Actually, I'll create a Jedi AND a non-Force user just to be an arse :p

    PS: -Kyle-Katarn- when did your character become a Jedi Master and what happened to your Padawan? ;)
  18. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    I will 0wnz you.

    I will be done shortly... :p
  19. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    I am finished.

    A 14th level Givin.

    Guardian 5/ Weapons Master 3/ Jedi Artisan 3/ Master Duelist 3.

    If I close with you, you die. The question is -- can I close fast enough? ;)
  20. -Kyle-Katarn- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 1
    Hmmm....looks potent, although I don't have the Jedi Artisan class.

    I'm waiting until the other character is created to place any bets, but I think the Jedi will probably win =p.
  21. Tremaniac Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 3
    Ok DP, my first level mook and his needlessly explosives filled ship crash onto the street your walking on. Can a fourteenth level Jedi really dodge that?
  22. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
  23. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Ok DP, my first level mook and his needlessly explosives filled ship crash onto the street your walking on. Can a fourteenth level Jedi really dodge that?

    Hey, I was arguing the Jedi aren't overpowered aspect here. These guys just were too wussy to make one... :p

    And this is a straight-up duel -- no ships. Cheater. ;)
  24. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Sorry, I was busy devouring the D&D 3.5 PHB [face_blush] That does raise a few questions about "porting over" rules though, since D&D is pretty much the source of d20 rules:

    *There is no more Ambidexterity feat, only Two-Weapon Fighting.

    *You may add your BAB to the Sense Motive roll to oppose a Bluff when Feinting in combat. Hella :cool:

    *You may use Combat Reflexes to make multiple attacks of opportunity on the same person [face_shocked] so long as each AoO was for a different reason. SWRPG Example: A character gets up from being prone, attempts to fire his blaster rifle at a character in melee who also has the Agile Riposte feat, and then uses Heroic surge to make a single melee attack that misses. This poor berk would suffer three AoO from the same melee master: once for getting up from prone, once for using a two-handed ranged weapon while in a threatened square, and once b/c of the Agile Riposte feat.

    "And this is a straight-up duel -- no ships. Cheater. ;)"

    What about speeder bikes? :D
  25. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    What about speeder bikes?

    Nothing more than jetpacks. ;)

    You may use Combat Reflexes to make multiple attacks of opportunity on the same person

    I had always assumed this was the case. Example: a Soldier stands in-front of a Jedi with Combat Reflexes and is using a blaster rifle. He fires four times. Each time, since he is using a two-handed ranged weapons, the Jedi makes an AoO on him.
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