PT Jedi Philosophy From The PT Applied In Real Life

I think Sith philosophy could be summed by one word or concept in our world: narcissism.

 

KOTOR gave the Sith a decent philosophy. The general thrust was the same as the movies but more fleshed out. A philosophy of harnessing one's emotions to achieve greater power combined with a sort of Darwinian worldview of strife leading to strength.

"Peace is a lie. There is only passion."

 

darth-sinister
rational and emotional aren't the same, that much is certain, and it is also certain that obi-wan doesn't approach life as anakin does.

i don't think i want to get into a whole argument over which one is better, the thread is about jedi philosophy, i was interpreting it as it applies to my life and i'm not stoic enough, so it doesn't.

 

I think there is also something interesting in Revenge of the Sith. When Anakin finds out that Palpatine is a Sith there is an interesting dialogue. Palpatine says something like to achieve a true knowledge you have to study all the points of view, not only a limited point of view. That is very interesting because I think that is true, if we only take a point of view, we may close ourselves to the truth. If we would just see a side of a cube, we wouldn't see the entire figure, (if I'm explain myself well). This is a very interesting idea, because maybe in a certain way, the Sith are more open-minded than the Jedi, who knows?

 

Hehe, yes, I'm with the Jedi philosophy too ;-) I find it's the most interesting, the purest and the most useful in life. I'm not defending the Sith (because I'm a Jedi, like my father before me! XD). I only referred to the knowledge in general if you get me. I was applying that phrase in the real life. Though I don't like the Sith philosophy either, I have to admit that this phrase has certain grade of truth (in my opinion). I'm not talking about the Sith's ideals, you know, I'm only referring to this concrete phrase.

I'm not an English native speaker, then it's a little difficult to me explain this, but... whatever! I'll do my best and I'll try it with the Force as my ally XD. Here I go.

I was referring that in life you need to know every possible point of view to get a better perspective of the things. For example, in history, we know certain things and we think they are true, you know. But, suddenly, an archeologist finds something new buried and the history changes, because we had only a limited knowledge of the matter and now we have a new object or data which gives a new perspective. With every piece we know a little more (or a little less, it depends how you see it XD, because I'm sure I know less of anything each day I live XD). Then, we need to explore more and more points of view to have more knowledge. If the ancient people had kept thinking the world was square, we had never knew the truth. It's the problem of the limited vision.

As you say, it's true Palpatine doesn't use this knowledge for good, and he try to lure Anakin by his side with this phrase. But, I can't help but finding some true in the phrase out of the Sith philosophy, if I'm explaining well. I know, I know, I'm doing a mess XD, but I hope I could explain better this time than the other. Greetings from Tatooine :-D

 

The thing is that Palpatine tells Anakin that, in order to get him to go against the Jedi training that he's had undergone over the last dozen years. It is his way of setting him up for the revelation that he is a Sith and that he can learn from him. That he has to open himself to the idea that the Sith way is worth exploring and embracing the philosophy. In general theory, it is acceptable to learn from different sources. Especially when it comes to religion, a lot of the crap that's gone on for years, would probably not be what it is if that happened.

 

the jedi rationalise killing in the name of... abstract concepts plentifully. it's called the clone wars.the jedi train children as warriors because that is apparently the skill they need to be jedi. it's all about compassionate killing then i mean, if you have to do it, it's better to be in a calm state rather than angry at the person you are killing right? killing on command is also ok, as long as the command is issued by someone who means well.

/sarcasm

maybe i should preface all posts with 'i do not endorse mass murder, however, i'm interested in a metaphorical, not a literal reading of those films'.

just imagine them like that.

it MAY be that in-universe, learning from different sources is a problem, although in real life it very rarely is. why would learning about the dark side be in itself a problem, though? learning is a neutral process, it doesn't mean you endorse the practice, it just means you *understand* it.

being able to understand both sides of an argument has rarely been a hindrance, it's only a hindrance if you think one side has to be *right*. i wouldn't grant that to either of those philosophies, they are far too reductive.

 

No, you don't need to do or try something to know what it can do and it's respective consequences. In the fact, to ignore them and pretend they don't exist is being close minded.

The Jedi don't use the dark side. They know it and what it can do to a person and everything else. That's why they don't use it and warn against it. That's wisdom, not lack of knowledge.

 

Take it further; Obi-wan is shown on two occasions only wounding a person. Not killing them. Though with Dr. Evanzian it is questionable since we don't see him being dead, but the databank leans that way. Likewise when Obi-wan is on the Death Star, he avoids killing any of the Stormtroopers that he encounters and he avoids killing the Tuskens. He seeks other avenues first, before going for the kill. He only kills when necessary.

 

Here's the thing though... Let's use Nazi's as an example...

It's OK for people to learn about why the Nazi's did what they did, to research it, and to "understand" it. However, what needs to happen is that rational people should look at what they did, understand why they did it, but should still reject it for what it is, evil.

The Jedi do understand the Sith, what they are about, why they do the things they do etc etc etc. However, they reject it because it is evil. Which is the right conclusion to come too. Their "dogma" is not from being close-minded, but because they know what the Sith are about and they reject the evil in the Sith way...

Palpatine is constantly trying to skew that line between Jedi and Sith, Good and Evil...

Like in the Opera scene when he says good is a POV. Anakin rejects this ideal and establishes his belief in the difference between Jedi and Sith...

That doesn't stop Palpatine from trying again, when he says the dialogue that you alluded to above. However, this time around, Anakin doesn't reject it because of the personal implications attached to what Palpatine is saying, the ability to save his wife. A rational Anakin should have rejected what Palpatine had to say because nothing changed in Sith philosophy from the time of the Opera to that point, however, Anakin's greed was still there, and his greed led him to listen to what Palpatine was pushing...

 

Yeah, right! This is exactly what I meant! ;-) I didn't find the correct words. As you said, in-universe may be a problem (but only if you use the Dark Side powers or Dark Side philosophy). But if you only explore another points of view or try to know what another things are, you're only exploring, observing... you know.

I'm not talking about take the philosophy of killing people from the Sith XD, you know. I'm only saying both extremes might be very extremist. The Sith only rely in their passion, they kill to get what they want, etc. But the Jedi (though I love their philosophy, for the record) may be extremist in some points too. For example, when a kid is born, he is trained by the Jedi and they tell him everything what he need to do. For example: He "can't" love (though he must have compassion). Why ANY Jedi can't love EVER? Is that totally right? I know, I know. The attachment may drive to the Dark Side and everything (as Yoda said). But, don't you think the friendship among the Jedis is an "attachment" too? If a Jedi is sufficiently trained, he should be able to manage a situation of love (in the same way he manages a friendship relation). I don't know, it's only a though, an example.

My real point is... why the things the Jedi though are the only correct ones? I think I'm more in the side of Qui-Gon, a Jedi who thinks freely, without strict dogmas or guides, only his common sense, his heart and an open mind (always avoiding the Dark Side). But, if you get me, I see Qui-Gon really very wise, because he takes his owns points of view (though in certain occasions he will even be against the council). But he is very open-minded and he is always exploring the life and the world with his own eyes, not doing what others say only because they say it.

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I agree with that. That doesn't interfere with I was saying. I'm not talking about USING the Dark Side (if I'm explaining well, because I'm a total mess XD). I'm talking only about to study or exploring the things (in general) without close before the facts and the truths. In the matters of the Force that approach is tricky because, as you said, it can be dangerous and it can do awful things to a person.

I think I get you. Yes, I agree, the Jedi had been many years in the galaxy and they have known the effects of the Dark Side. You're right. They aren't close-minded in that aspect. I didn't explain myself well.

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Yes, this is the point. They must study, as you say, the "history", the examples, the other point of views and learn from it. As you and several people have said, the Jedi learned that from the past facts and they know the Dark Side is dangerous... So... They studied the things in several ways, they saw different perspectives and they opened their minds to new things to explore (to learn from that). So... I think the quote of Palpatine is still true XD, from a certain point of view (though he is using it badly).

 

this is a plea for neutrality.

history is a complex subject of study, and so is philosophy. paradigms are being shifted after regime changes and after cataclysmic events all the time. there is no real firm ground to stand on and morality has very little to do with social dynamics and shifts.

i grew up in a country that called itself democratic but was nothing of the sort. it was a dictatorship that repressed its people. it was still my country and it provided an infrastructure to live in and as long as you held the *right* opinion, you were left alone.

bringing up the nazis and making a moral judgement over them, well, if it makes you feel better, go for it, there's very little i can do about it. but the nazis didn't happen in a vacuum. no dictatorship happens in a vacuum of a few people making it happen and then, what? everyone just magically falls in line? that's a very naive way to see things. you can turn this around and say, ok, so everyone who supports the dictatorship is evil now as well? and where does that leave you? every western government does weapon exports for example. these weapons support dictatorships. are they all evil? are all the western governments evil? were all the germans evil? and if so, what difference does this make?

none at all, i'd wager.

when we've all stopped finger-wagging and getting excited about the EVIL that is very often committed in our name, we can then see that there is complexity perhaps and that dividing the world into good and evil doesn't really make that much sense.

so, anyway, for me, jedi philosophy is repressive in certain aspects. i understand the need for the governing of emotions and, you know, not to follow each impulse and to restrain oneself (i really do) but it's something one has to LEARN as well. emotional restraint isn't something that one simply picks up by virtue of being told. it's something that has to be learned - and when i say learning here, i mean understood deeply and not simply by repression.

repression is the thing that gives birth to monsters. it's the unrecognised and unacknowledged feelings that can overtake and then rule us and the jedi are right to point that out, i just happen to think they are pretty rubbish at teaching people about acknowledging them without identifying with them.

that is key to me, acknowledging without identifying.

it's a meditation exercise for me if anything, to give myself focus (such as my breath) and to follow my breath and then to observe my thoughts and focus straying. and to observe but not judge it. if i beat myself up every time i stray, i wouldn't gain anything meditation-wise, all i would do is judge. so i observe and walk myself back to where my focus was. it's my mind wandering.

learning not to judge has been a useful skill as a therapist. if i wanted to divide the world into black and white, good and bad, yeah, but i just feel it has no real use beyond enabling me to judge.

so that is why in summary, ruling certain emotions out doesn't cut it for me. they are all just emotions. it is a matter of being able to acknowledge them and not identify with them, that makes a difference. that for me is zen and is deep understanding. the jedi aren't close to that in the prequels. they follow the letter of the law but not its spirit.

 

The Jedi recognize emotions. They just know what happens when those emotions get in the way. As Yoda discovered on the Force planet, he had been affected by the dark side. He hadn't fully abandoned it and had to acknowledge that it still existed within him. Once he did, he was able to overcome the darkness. This is why he's more cautious during the final days of the war. But as he also told Ezra, the other Jedi had given strength to the dark side because they had fear and anger in their hearts due to the war. They needed to let go of those emotions in order to properly function again. This is why Luke is able to do what he did, because he ultimately sees the dark side within himself and let go of it.