Saga Jedi Philosophy Was Pretty Messed Up...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Moviefan2k4, Dec 21, 2013.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The advice wasn't poor. It was sound advice. Anakin just didn't listen to it because he felt that he failed his mother and didn't want to fail again. He let his promise to stop people from dying control his every actions.

    The Jedi would screen the candidates to make sure that they weren't corrupt. They never wanted the power and control, otherwise they would have taken it long ago. That's why the Sith Order came into existence in the first place. The Jedi who became the first Sith did so because they believed might makes right and that they could do a better job running the show, rather than being the indentured servants of the Republic. Mace had no intention of running things. He just wanted the power to be returned to the Senate where it belonged.

    Except he does sacrifice his friends by stopping the fighting. By shutting down his Lightsaber, Luke has chosen to let things happen as they may. If that means the Alliance falls, then it does. He accepts that outcome and does so willingly.

    It wasn't complete detachment. It was controlling your emotions, which a lack of control is dangerous for a Jedi. That's why the Council long ago established the guidelines of loving people, but doing so unconditionally. Doing so through compassion and being selfless. In order to survive this, Anakin needed to stop being afraid of losing that which he cared for and then, and only then, would everything crystallize for him.

    There's a right way to go and a wrong way. One of the right ways to go is to do so without being controlled by your emotions.

    They weren't celibate, but they couldn't marry. They could love people, but they had to love them without being attached. Jealousy, fear, obsessiveness, possessiveness, greed and anger are the negative aspects of love. That's why Anakin's downfall played out as it did. This was not the first time a Jedi fell to the dark side because of attachments. It was the temptations from having significant others that caused problems. Look at how Luke reacted to his sister being threatened. He almost killed his father twice because he couldn't get a handle on himself. The danger in being a Jedi is that threats will come in all shapes and all sizes and with a power like the Force, if you do no master it, it will control you and drive you to do terrible things. This is why Obi-wan said it was a dangerous time for Luke when he was prepared to leave Dagobah.

    Now, that's not saying that having loved ones in their lives is a bad thing as we see the Jedi did change things. But it is easy to understand why they went the route that they did.

    Fighting for salvation isn't about attachment or detachment. Luke is thinking of his father and believes that he can save him, but he is doing so out of compassion for his father. An unconditional love that he has for his father. Luke isn't doing this for his benefit. The only desire that Luke had was to stop the Alliance from being destroyed and trying to prevent his sister from being dragged into the Jedi/Sith conflict because she isn't ready to face it. This part is what almost leads to his turn to the dark side. Luke had to accept that the Alliance could fall, as could his loved ones. Once he did, he was able to become a Jedi Knight as this was his trial. Begging his father for help isn't about attachment. It is a compassionate plea for help.

    No, but the fact is that he did it. He knew right from wrong and what he was doing was wrong. That's why he said, "What have I done?" He didn't want Mace or Palpatine to die, but he had to make a choice and he chose poorly. The minute he left the Temple, he had broken his oath to the Jedi Order, to democracy and to his loved ones.

    Sometimes, you have to make a sacrifice if it means the greater good can be achieved. This happened on Geonosis. Obi-wan told Anakin that if their roles had been reversed, Padme would have done her duty. We saw that when she opened fire on Dooku, instead of rushing in to check on him. Anakin needed to sacrifice Padme in order to stop Palpatine and because he couldn't do that, he condemned himself and the galaxy to darkness and despair. Luke needed to sacrifice Han and Leia if it meant stopping the Sith. Something he wasn't willing to do on Dagobah and was almost not willing to do later on. When Luke surrenders his Lightsaber, he has made his choice. When Anakin saves Luke, he does so because it means sacrificing himself for his son.
  2. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    The Jedi would "screen" candidates? Do they have that power? And what if they find nothing legally wrong, but they still believe that a candidate is "not right"? And I still have a tough time believing that the Senate would just sit back and have the Jedi walk in and say, "Palpatine's under arrest. We're in charge for now." Sound more like Gen. Scott from "Seven Days in May" than Qui-Gon.

    And Luke wasn't sacrificing the Alliance or the Rebellion. He was sacrificing himself. He went in believing that, at best, the Rebels would kill everyone on Death Star II before anything bad could happen. And he was ready to die rather than betray himself and fall to the Dark Side. That moral stand gave Anakin the encouragement to resist and turn away. And it wouldn't have happened if Luke had followed orders and killed Vader without a second thought.

    And, once again, if someone is worried over an endangered or dying loved one, you don't say, "Let them die. Don't miss them. Don't mourn them. Everyone's better off if they're gone." If someone had said that to me when one of my relatives was near death, I'd have punched them out. Now, just imagine the reaction of a conflicted Jedi who can kill someone with a thought. Words have power, and Yoda's words were wrong.
  3. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    On a very limited level I agree with you here. It is not so much that Luke sacrifices his friends, it is that he accepts that he cannot be all powerful. their fate is in their hands.

    As to the last part. What orders are you talking about? I don't remember anybody (apart from Palpatine) ordering Luke to kill Vader. If you are suggesting that you think the Jedi ordered him to do so, could you point that out to me? Could you also explain why, at the moment he decides to (in your opinion) disregard their orders he recognises that he is a Jedi. This is an odd moment isn't it? That at the moment you refuse to do something that somebody has ordered you to do you realise you have become one of them.... how odd?

    Missing the point, made plenty times here that....Anakain should not have had any loved ones that Yoda should be taking into consideration because...Anakin gave an oath not to. An oath. You know, not like some "yeah sure" but an oath, as in solemn oath. You know, like, as in, really mean it. To bond yourself and your honour to your word. To offer up in words, with full liability, your most honest and truthful conviction.
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  4. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    First, Yoda and Ben told him several times that he must have no feelings for Vader, shouldn't even think of him as human. They told him to kill him and not even consider any possibility of his redemption. They even lied to him (sorry, told him the truth "from a certain point of view") to further their goal.

    And Ani shouldn't have any loved ones? So anyone outside the Jedi should be ignored except in the line of duty? He shouldn't care about them and want to help them? Are we talking about the Jedi or the Moonies?
  5. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    So...no orders then? Strange to say that your perspective of the Jedi does not seem to be shared by Luke.

    So...is that what you claim you meant by "loved one"? Is that how the term is generally used?

    (Oh...and just for clarification...nobody said that "everybodys better off if they're gone")
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Dec 23, 2013
  6. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    No, they didn't actually "order" him to kill Vader. Just like the Army didn't "order" Willard to kill Kurtz. But the implication is obvious.

    And, after telling Anakin not to try and save Padme, Yoda says that she'd be better off because she'd merge with the Force, so he should be happy when she dies.

    I don't want to run this into the ground (assuming I haven't already done so), but I'm saying that things might've been different if Yoda and the Jedi had shown more understanding of Anakin's worries and better phrased what they were trying to teach him. Yoda chose his words poorly and needlessly aggravated the problem.

    And I can tell you from personal experience, you want to be careful what you say to someone worried about the life of a loved one. Even a good message phrased poorly can make things worse.
  7. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    "terminate with extreme prejudice" is a euphemism known to have the meaning "assassinate" within a particular context. The thing is that while you say it is "obvious" what the implication of Yoda and Obi-Wan's words are, Luke does not share your understanding. It is upon rejecting the opportunity to kill Vader that Luke associates himself with his Jedi teachers. Clearly then the announcement "I am a Jedi..." upon his epiphany suggests that what you think he has been taught is not as "obvious" as you think.

    No he doesn't. he says that death is a natural part of life. We are all of us mortal.

    But how can Yoda and the other Jedi show more understanding of Anakin's worries when they have no idea of the true nature of those concerns. He is talking of a "loved one", one with whom he has an attachment. Anakin says so himself in AOTC ( "Possessions, forbidden. Attachment, forbidden...") - he has sworn himself (given a solemn oath) to these provisions and then betrayed them.

    You say that Yoda chose his words poorly but you can only claim that from a position of knowing Anakin's true circumstances. Anakin has a chance to come clean when Yoda asks him (probes) as to who his dreams are about, but he continues the deception. Anakin is a Jedi Knight who, by his solemn oath ought not to have a wife, and who has previously imparted that he knows this attachment is forbidden. Other than presuming Anakin is dishonourable and a liar can only remind a Jedi Knight as to what he should already know and understand.

    If Anakin had been some non-Jedi who had come to Yoda for help then I have little doubt that Yoda would have offered very different advice.

    It is Anakin's witholding of information, his deception that is the problem.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    They would obtain evidence proving that the Chancellor was corrupt. It was all in his office and his personal quarters and wherever else he hid his Sith materials. His Lightsaber, his robes, his transmitter that connects directly to Dooku, Grievous and everyone else. Yes, the Senate would be upset, but once the truth was out there, things would change.

    Right, but that was before he found out that the Death Star was operational and watched it destroy the larger ships. It could destroy Endor. Luke had to accept that regardless of this, if the Alliance failed, then it failed. But at least they did their best. Maybe they would succeed and maybe they would fail. But it wasn't worth losing himself to stop Palpatine and Vader.

    I'm not disputing that. I'm pointing out the reason why Luke took his Lightsaber and went on the offensive. The first time, Palpatine goaded Luke with the knowledge that there was nothing he could to stop it unless he used the dark side and killed him. The second time, Vader used turning Leia in order to goad Luke into attacking.


    Which is not what Yoda said, nor implied with his words. Yoda said that for a Jedi, he must be willing to let go of everything that he feared and that is the only thing he can do. What Anakin wanted was a solution from the Force which there was none to give. Medical science has already been ruled out as a means of salvation and so Anakin was looking for something else. Anakin understood exactly what Yoda said about letting go of his fear. He was still contemplating that when Palpatine told him that there was a solution that the Force could provide, because a Sith Lord had managed to stop death once upon a time.

    No, he doesn't. Yoda never says don't try to save her. He says, "Be careful when sensing the future." Meaning his emotions will cloud his judgment. He also says, "The fear of loss is the path to the dark side.", which we know it is. He tells him to "train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." Which means that he must prepare himself mentally and emotionally for what is to come. When he says, "Rejoice for those who around you who transform into the Force." which means that think of the positive things that they did in their life and what they had brought to him for the time they were together. Do not wallow in misery and agony. When we had the private ceremony for my brother two years ago, the minister had us each share stories of the good things that he had contributed in his life and the positive things that he had done for each of us in attendance.

    Right now, there's a girl who is clinically brain dead. Her parents are unwilling to take her off life support because of their attachment to their daughter. They are unwilling to accept what is and are clinging to a false hope that she will somehow make a miraculous recovery. They are unwilling to let her go. I understand their pain and sense of loss, but I also see that they are only hurting themselves and the memory of their daughter because of their inability to move past their pain. They are making emotional decisions and not logical, rational ones. They're not preparing themselves for it.
  9. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4


    Thank you! Finally, someone understands.

    Some of the Jedi philosophy made sense to me. Some of it didn't. Sometimes, I found nothing wrong with how the Jedi approached their philosophy. Sometimes, I did. It's a mixed bag. I do feel that the Jedi made a good number of mistakes that helped Palpatine plan their downfall.
    Last edited by DRush76, Dec 24, 2013
  10. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    Okay, I've said my piece regarding Jedi philosophy and Anakin's reaction to it. But, as far as the Jedi suddenly taking over the Republic after arresting Palpatine, let's look at it in a different way:

    One day, a joint session of Congress is called, though no one is informed about why. When it's called to order, the Director of the F.B.I. walks in and announces, "The President has been placed under arrest. We have evidence that his Administration has violated U.S. law. Until such time as the matter is cleared up, I will be in charge of the U.S. Government, assisted by agents of the Bureau. That is all."
    Now, do you honesty see the House and the Senate, no matter what evidence is presented, just quietly going along with this? Do you really see them overlooking the Consitution just because the Feds tell them to?

    Now, do you really see the Senate of the Republic tossing out the law just because the Jedi tell them to? No matter what evidence is presented, do you really think they'll just roll over and wait for the Jedi to decide who is fit for office? And what about the ordinary citizens, who have little contact with the Jedi? Will they accept suddenly having the Jedi be in command, rather than the beings they voted for?

    And, finally, do you really think every one of the Jedi will agree on who gets to be in charge, especially after they've been running the show for a while? And on the other side, do you think that every one of the Jedi will be happy with the idea of tossing out the Code and taking over?

    As I noted before, this is basically "Seven Days in May" with lightsabers.
  11. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    Now on this I must demur to your wisdom. It is, indeed, poor story-telling. What was Windu thinking? I'm not sure why arresting Palpatine automatically leads to executive power falling into the hands of the Jedi. I don't think it follows at all. In fact the best that the Jedi could do would be to request that the Senate assemble and explain that he had refused to give over his executive powers and that they were ensuring that such occurred. In other words, that the Senate should re-convene under the auspices of its authority prior to the AOTC vote.
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    In the real world, it wouldn't be that way precisely. We've seen how the laws of impeachment have been handled, especially not that long ago. But our laws are not the same as those of a fictional universe that was created with its own rules and laws. The Senate is known to be filled with corruption and traitors hiding in plain sight. The Jedi taking charge comes because so many in the Senate were in Palpatine's back pocket, that the weeding out would have to take place. The ones who sided with Palpatine would speak out, just as Mon Mothma, Padme Amidala and Bail Organa would side with the Jedi. It would be a mess, but a necessary one. After all, the Alliance did essentially what the Jedi were going to do. They fought and killed the rightful ruler of the Republic and restarted the Senate with those who were not loyal to the Empire.

    If you're going to criticize the Jedi, then do so with the Alliance.

    The Council would oversee the transition. A majority vote would be required and the Jedi Council would go from there. Just as it has in other political situations. The Jedi are not power hungry. If they were, the Republic would have been an Empire and the Jedi Order would be like the Sith Order. There wouldn't have been a war between the factions.
  13. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    It doesn't, nor does he say that. As he himself explained, the Jedi would only be there to secure a safe transition (to a new Chancellor). They are keepers of the peace, and it's in their duty to keep order until a new leader is chosen. I also don't understand what does this have anything to do with good or bad storytelling.
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  14. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    There is no requirement for the Jedi to have any part in the process of power - not even transitionally. In TPM the Chancellor is thrown out of office by a vote of no confidence. The Senate elects a new Chancellor without any need fro the Jedi to keep the peace in the mean-time. That aspect of the story appears to be nothing more than a way to make the Jedi action seem questionable.
  15. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    I don't see this as poor writing. It's yet another example of how utterly bamboozled the Jedi had been, thanks to Palpatine. He'd manipulated the situation so the Jedi could go from Qui-Gon's "I can only protect you; I cannot fight a war for you," to Mace planning, with Yoda's tacit agreement, to lead a Jedi takeover of the government.

    The art of the con is for the grifter to set up a situation where the mark will do something utterly against his principles or better judgement (like giving all his money to some stranger in return for shares in an oil well in Dunellen, NJ) while thinking he's doing the right thing for himself. And Palpatine was the biggest con artist this side of the Devil himself.
  16. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    Getting back to my "Seven Days in May" analogy, Scott didn't want to take over the U.S. Government because he was an evil mustache-twirling villain. He wanted it done because he thought President Lyman was all-but-betraying the country, and that a military coup was actually doing the right thing for America, even if it meant violating his both oath as an officer in the USAF and the U.S. Constitution.

    In the same way, Mace, Yoda and the Jedi honestly believed that they were doing the right thing, even though it meant betraying the very principles the Jedi were founded upon. The Jedi served the Republic, not governed it, especially not without the clear consent of those to be governed. They'd all have to be absolute moral paragons not to be at least tempted to abuse such power, and we know they're just as full of normal failings as anyone else.

    As for the Jedi screening candidates for office to weed out those they believed evil or corrupt, how about this: they run across a senator who stands for the office of Chancellor. He's a fine, upstanding being with no vices, no scandals, and a sterling reputation for honesty. No one can find any fault with him. And one of his stated promises, if elected, is to have the Jedi Order dissolved, as they've shown themselves to be threat against the democratc principles of the Republic, and their duties handed over to the military and security forces. Would the Jedi allow such a candidate to run for office, and maybe get elected?

    I just don't see a Jedi protectorate turning out well, especially one that starts with no notification of the Senate, let alone their consent.
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  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    And the mindless Mace Windu bashing continues.

    You need to watch REVENGE OF THE SITH again:

    Do you really expect us to believe that Mace was solely responsible for the idea of the Jedi removing Palpatine and taking over the Senate? I certainly don't.
    Last edited by DRush76, Dec 25, 2013
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  18. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    It wasn't about Mace, it was about the writing and what lies behind it - and this exemplifies that. Why would the Jedi need to screen Senators? Who are they to do so? Deleted scenes again show that it was the executive power that Palpatine had amassed to himself that was the problem. Don't the people have a say in who the Senators are? Well, from what we know of Naboo, not necessarily. There a Queen is elected and then appears to have full executive power (deciding upon who serves in the Senate for the people, for example - essentially an elected oligarchy, a benign despot)

    The implications are that power resides with elites, and we rely on good elites to do the right thing. The people are as nothing, being simply in the care of elites.

    And this is poor writing because there is no reason that the Jedi would have to take transitional power. It is the Chancellor not giving up his emergency powers that is at issue so that ALL the Jedi need to do is remove him and those powers.
  19. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    I assume it's in their duty to keep order until a new leader is elected. It's just like the police.

    Because the election happened that very day (or night, I guess). Until a new Chancellor was elected, I assume Valorum was still in office (there is nothing that shows the opposite). Not to mention that the issue with Palpatine was completely different. This was a case where the Chancellor was under arrest, the senate didn't know anything about it, and the Republic suddenly had no leader.

    And it is.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Dec 26, 2013
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  20. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Like the police? That doesn't fit with the lines you quoted at all, does it? Would the police be in their rights, or have any reason to believe that it would be right for them, to screen Senators/representatives?


    But what the Jedi talk about is the Chancellor not giving up his executive powers to the Senate. By arresting him, then, they surely facilitate the handing of those powers back to the Senate.

    Indeed.
  21. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I have another question. Why would a religious order behave like the police in the first place?



    The Jedi displaying their flaws is not a sign of bad writing. Also, Lucas first set up and insinuated the close connection between the Jedi and the galaxy's political body in the first trilogy with a line by Obi-Wan.
    Last edited by DRush76, Dec 26, 2013
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  22. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    I didn't quote anything.

    No, but then again, that's not what Mace said.

    I think I started the discussion of this topic based on the false premiss that Mace talked about this after he learned of Palpatine's role as a Sith Lord (thus the arrest) and not his dictatorial powers (my mistake). I'll reformulate my take on this later.

    They are not just a religious order. They were always described as warrior monks, guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. At one point (AotC DVD commentary, IIRC), Lucas described their role as the equivalent of marshals.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Right, but you forget that Dooku told Obi-wan that Darth Sidious had control over the Senate and that many were under his influence. They now realize how truthful that statement was and there is a question of whether or not Palpatine had others on his side, who would step up to the plate and run things in his stead. Mace even points out what Sio Bibble hinted at, which was that Palpatine had control over the Senate and the Courts. Meaning that he had too many in his corner. We know that Mas Amedda was in his back pocket and there were others as well. The last time this happened, the Jedi didn't get involved because they had no reason to. This time they did because of the Sith.

    Nope. Palpatine has the power even while under arrest. That's the nature of the Emergency Powers Act, which is that he is essentially the one in charge until he abdicates that power or it is taken from him. This is why Palpatine declares himself the Emperor. Unlike with the office of the President, where the power is stripped by the Senate through articles of impeachment, the Chancellor/Emperor is the uncontested ruler. Arresting Palpatine was step one. There were more steps to be taken.

    Because they were more than a religious order. Lucas designed the Jedi to be like the Samurai in Feudal Japan, the Knights of the Round Table and the sheriffs/ marshals of the old west. The Jedi volunteered their services because it was the right thing to do and the will of the Force that they serve the Republic. They had power and a responsibility to use it wisely.
  24. Ezekial Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 3
    It was just (Mod edit: not allowed) writing. Just leave it at that. There's really nothing to chew over. Just try to ignore the PT as much as you can...

    That said, if you've watched the Clone Wars cartoon series, I'm starting to get the impression that the political situation in this galaxy is actually based on...China.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Dec 27, 2013
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It's not **** writing. The principles of the Republic are based on real world governments, but they don't adhere strictly to all the laws and rules.
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